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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    The jugernaught build was a rage before the update, many people seam to really like playing selfhealing melee/ranged toons.
    just saying, one of the juggie's strength which made juggernaut a trend was feat-abundancy with extra 4 feats. (for barbs and bards, 6 feat i say.)
    actually that style of build can be made with almost any class base, but mostly you'll be feat-starved.

  2. #62
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    So many bard problems, that individually are not that bad, and could be dealt with, but together they multiply their impact and thus i have given up on my Warchanter's fun to play him. After 5 years of a Meleebard being my maintoon.

    * too many medium time buffs with all just a little different duration.
    --> meaning constant checking and rebuffing, which is annoying and costs DPS.

    * too many different Songs that all need to be sung for proper buffage. Noone likes standing around half a minute doing nothing while the bard goes throguh the 16th song-animation. Many just run away and start without it.

    * half the Warchanter-tree is filler-trash.

    * the absolute power of bard-buffss hasnt really moved since when Cap was 16. This way powercreep has made the most effects a bard can provide very, very minor.
    --> DR 5/- when monsters hit for 40? Niccccee! .... DR 6/- when monsters hit for 150? Ehh, you'd never know if the bard actually sang it. Damageboosting-part is the same.

    * healing power almost irrelevant. Up till the very end off the heroic levels bards can heal halfway competent. But in epic at the latest its healingpower is neglectable. It was tried to adress this by giving the Heal spell. YAY! But only to pure Spellsingers. Epic Fail for all Warchanters and everyone who multiclassed, instead of trying to play a very weak form of Enchantment-Archmage.
    Last edited by Noctus; 12-11-2013 at 05:35 AM.
    Erzskalde (Warchanter) / Erzmarschall (melee FvS) / Erzsoldat (waiting for TR-time) / Erzschmied (ranged Artificer)

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  3. #63
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctus View Post
    * healing power almost irrelevant. Up till the very end off the heroic levels bards can heal halfway competent. But in epic at the latest its healingpower is neglectable. It was tried to adress this by giving the Heal spell. YAY! But only to pure Spellsingers. Epic Fail for all Warchanters and everyone who multiclassed, instead of trying to play a very weak form of Enchantment-Archmage.
    Yeah I find it ironic that my warchanter can heal for more with his cures than my spellsinger and my spellsinger is the one with the much better sp pool, I hate how they spread out all the enhancements and made the healing pos spell power so expensive and hard to get to, with a whole bunch of fluff.

  4. #64
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Well, under the current AC system, you are going to get hit anyways, so why not get some use out of it?
    Just wanted to follow up here. If I am soloing I will fascinate a group, then pull one at a time with an "arrow to the knee." Once said mob is out of cleave range from other temporarily immobilized monsters I work over non-fascinated bad guy. So my wanting abetter weapon effect (that the whole party gets) is probably a reflection of my playstyle as I don't like to take a beating. Rather, I like to handle mobs one at a time. Also, a guard proc on a mob is random Damage, I prefer focused DPS to efficiently clear the room even in a party. So the weapon effect lets me apply the damage to the current target of my blade.

    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    The thing with Fascinate that makes it so good is that if someone screws something up badly in any fight that isn't a boss fight, Fascinate can almost always prevent a wipe.
    One of the coolest feelings ever is when the guy with great puns saves the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctus View Post
    * the absolute power of bard-buffss hasnt really moved since when Cap was 16. This way powercreep has made the most effects a bard can provide very, very minor.
    --> DR 5/- when monsters hit for 40? Niccccee! .... DR 6/- when monsters hit for 150? Ehh, you'd never know if the bard actually sang it. Damageboosting-part is the same.

    I wonder if this is the real issue. Bards are never in Fate Singer since it stinks. So the Power of the bard comes from the enhancements which don't translate well into epic levels. The Developers need to boost the enhancement powers and Fatesinger.
    Last edited by Atremus; 12-11-2013 at 01:02 PM.
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  5. #65
    Hero Silken-Akira's Avatar
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    like I said in other bard problem related threads. DEVs please start working with us on this.
    There are a lot of good remarks and suggestions here but as long as no dev respond to that this can grow as wildly as we want and don't achieve anything.
    Please work with us so you let us know what is possible to change and we let you know what of those choices makes sense to the community

  6. #66
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I am trying to educate you
    Aww. That's adorbs. It seems like you have a lot to offer the world, intellectually.


    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    ...but there has not been much reason to play my bards because the one thing they both do well is heal which is not that important anymore - they do not dps, the cc they provide is inadequate, and even a tank provides more utility.
    Bards can DPS just fine. Splashing classes adds a lot and epic destinies add a ton. Let's say you roll up a boring old Throw Your Weight Around Dorf 16/2/2 and give it dual Adaxuses, use the extra fighter feats to help you get up to OC, and you play in Dreadnought. You're going to get the x7 crits in Spellsinger/x8 if Warchanter, and you're going to be able to Blitz like anyone else. It's not going to do the DPS of some other class combos, but it will come nowhere near sucking.
    Or perhaps you could roll up a Horc 13 bard/5 rogue/2 fvs stick fighter. You go tier 5 Thief Acrobat/tier 4 Horc/Divine Might, play it in Dreadnought, and that's where your DPS comes from. Then Bard gives you enough songs to use for when cc is needed along with a few buffs. Is the dps going to be light on that one?

    I somewhat stated this in my first couple posts because I, to a degree, try to predict and counter responses that may follow and attempt to consider the thinking of other members of the playerbase, but I think I must have been a bit vague about it, so I will restate it; I do my best to not play in groups of Shiradis, Monkchers, and FOTM characters because, despite the fact that I have a monkcher, I find the 6 man everyone-is-soloing group dynamic distasteful and dull. There are super efficient ways to plow through ee content out there, and while I think that's great if you are farming items and feel like you are punching a clock, it is not why I play the game.

    I short man, mostly with melees from my guild when they are online and we are not in the middle of TR projects, and I make a purposeful attempt to set up a group dynamic that allows for players to exercise more creatively in their builds than optimizing for the every man for himself ee pug scene. I also try to emphasize team play and teamwork, because despite the fact that I spend the majority of my time soloing, team play is a lot of what drew me to the game and in the highest level content is what I enjoy the most. In other words, my philosophy on cc/healing Bards is this; set up your own group where your talents can be optimized and at the same time reward the melees that, while well built, don't succeed as well as other classes in ee's based on the current oddball game and build mechanics.

    It comes down to being a playstyle preference. I don't like a lot of how the current mechanics work, so I choose to use my Bard in settings and in groups where quests are completed in more traditional ways. The nice thing about the game is that you have a choice about how you want to play it and more than one build/playstyle can be supported. I can't throw my cc bard into any pug group and expect it to contribute. The nice thing about it is that I have no desire to do that in the first place.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 12-11-2013 at 01:14 PM.

  7. #67
    Community Member LazarusPossum's Avatar
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    Nobody's mentioned copyright issues yet.
    "Why is stuff so hard?" - William Murderface

  8. #68
    Community Member avepepix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post
    This is where the bard shines. NOBODY plays bard, so you can play one for the novelty of it. Something different merely for the sake of being different.
    I can only say one name. Maxweld Cox!! xD

  9. #69
    Community Member Archetype's Avatar
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    I want this image to ring true:



    And a properly-build Bard can be GREAT at the moment, if built and played right. My Arcane Archer Elf DEX-to-bow-damage Manyshot/Furyshot, full Endgame trapper skills, party buffer and healer and resser and debuff-smasher, FASCINATE and paralyze arrows and Otto's Whistler Crowd Controller does fine on EE content. Even with silly spasmoid players whose fingers seem superglued to their CLEAVE/GREATCLEAVE or METEOR SWARM buttons... =P

    But this thread is correct. Bards need a dev in charge who understands them.

    And loves them.
    ~Thus we are met, in a time that is no longer a time, at a place that is no longer a place, for we are between the worlds and beyond.~

  10. #70
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype View Post

    And loves them.
    We are missing this quality, for sure.

    But I'd settle for a dev that simply wants a challenge and is willing to understand bards.

    It's pretty clear to me that the dev in charge of bards simply doesn't know what to do with them. A little vision, some imagination, and some hard work should straighten things out.

    I know they can do it, there are so many amazing aspects to this game that highlight what a little inspiration and hard work can accomplish... it just needs to be focused on bards for a while.

  11. #71
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctus View Post
    <snip>

    * half the Warchanter-tree is filler-trash.

    * --> DR 5/- when monsters hit for 40? Niccccee! .... DR 6/- when monsters hit for 150? Ehh, you'd never know if the bard actually sang it.

    * healing power almost irrelevant. Up till the very end off the heroic levels bards can heal halfway competent. But in epic at the latest its healingpower is neglectable. It was tried to adress this by giving the Heal spell. YAY! But only to pure Spellsingers. Epic Fail for all Warchanters and everyone who multiclassed, instead of trying to play a very weak form of Enchantment-Archmage.
    This.

    let's take a look at bards for a minute: no evasion, light/medium armor, low hit points, no serious dps enhancements in the trees (courage enhancements aside), and can't cast heal = not melee/ranged worthy without generously splashing 4+ levels at least.

    so when rolling a bard, we're essentially talking caster (this is already a personal no thank you for me)
    caster bard = no dps, enchant on the same level as an archmage (already subpar as an archmage can also dps), and arcane buffs...

    hard to find anything to like about the bards as things stand.
    I would add damaging songs to their arsenal, add the heal spell to their spell book, revamp the warchanter tree to be more effective in melee and/or offer better positive spell power enhancements and offer dodge bonuses
    as a start

  12. #72
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    The problem with Bards is that they're carnie folk. Nomads, you know. Smell like cabbage. Small hands.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  13. #73
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default Consolidate Bard Songs

    I don't think that "Inspire Greatness" is worth a song by itself. Make it a toggle that, when toggled, adds the effects of Inspire Greatness to the Inspire Courage song, so that it affects all allies in the area of I.C.'s effect. HOWEVER, toggling I.G. *on* would cause each use of Inspire Courage to cost 2 uses of bardic music, instead of 1. The same idea could apply to Inspire Heroics, as well.

    Then, do the same thing with Enthrallment and Fascinate.

    On the other hand, Song of Heroism *is* worth a song by itself, and should be kept as it is.

    The entire point of this particular suggestion is not to make bards more powerful per se, but to save time. Bards have a TON of buffs, and it's annoying to have to keep clicking them constantly.

  14. #74
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    We are missing this quality, for sure.

    But I'd settle for a dev that simply wants a challenge and is willing to understand bards.

    It's pretty clear to me that the dev in charge of bards simply doesn't know what to do with them. A little vision, some imagination, and some hard work should straighten things out.
    You ask for too much............might as well add in world peace while your at it.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    The thing with Fascinate that makes it so good is that if someone screws something up badly in any fight that isn't a boss fight, Fascinate can almost always prevent a wipe.

    It's not something you use much - but when you are overwhelmed, there is nothing more effective than fascinating everything, then breaking one mob's fascinate at a time and killing it. It's slow but very reliable.

    I could not count the number of EE wipes I have prevented that way after some idiot PUGger pulls four packs of mobs at once. Let the reckless person die, Fascinate everything, dance one of them, kill the dancing one, repeat. Once you've killed all thirty mobs solo, raise everyone except the reckless person, dump their stone in lava, then complete the quest.

    While this ability is good, however, it's too situational to warrant a party slot on its own.
    I agree, I had a Sorc TR build that had one Bard level (for UMD and wand healing at low level on a fleshy) that used Fascinate as an oh **** button... Fascinate needs 1 bard level and 2 points into Perform per level thereafter. Even songs are not a problem as you rarely need more than the 2 or was it 3 that he got, and even then resting after an oh **** moment is usually par for the course.

    Obviously something that takes exactly 1 Bard level does not make a compelling argument for Bard being just fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  16. #76
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I agree, I had a Sorc TR build that had one Bard level (for UMD and wand healing at low level on a fleshy) that used Fascinate as an oh **** button... Fascinate needs 1 bard level and 2 points into Perform per level thereafter. Even songs are not a problem as you rarely need more than the 2 or was it 3 that he got, and even then resting after an oh **** moment is usually par for the course.

    Obviously something that takes exactly 1 Bard level does not make a compelling argument for Bard being just fine.
    Paladin is fine as well.,..........the saves you can get is off the hook!!!

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    (1) Amazing nitch CC.
    (2) Really solid healing.
    (3) great melee based spells.
    1) Druids have better and non nitch, and not only that they cause damage
    2) Druids have better
    3) Druids have as good but with better base melee abilities in Animal Form
    4) Druids have amazing SLA's (Produce Flame, Call Lightning)
    5) Druids have amazing AOE's

    1) Arti's are don't have conventional CC granted +1 Bard
    2) Arti's don't heal others much even though they have the admixtures to do minor cures +2 Bard
    3) Arti's Buffs are more focused and have a bigger specific impact (Bypassing boss DR and +1[W]) tie?
    4) Arti's get traps
    5) Arti's are better Melee or ranged DPS due to imbues and also get their caster stat to damage unlike Bards
    6) Arti's get amazing SLA's and do very good Spell DPS.
    7) Arti's have very good ADOT's (Flame Turret and BB)
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  18. #78
    Blogger and Hatchery Hero
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    mmmm. this topic is so tempting. i always jump into these feet first and let-er rip... but this time i think i'll watch for a bit more, and see how it pans out...

    i do, however, have to comment on one thing....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Bards are squishy?
    really? coulda fooled me, considering 2 of my bards have both have in the neighborhood of 700-800HP. (can provide screenshot proof if you think i'm full it)

    ANY class is squishy if you build it that way, and any class can be built to be a beast. don't let 'oh it's a bard' be your excuse

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  19. #79
    neck deep member Powskier's Avatar
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    Default fix what

    I like my bard Alot,just 1st life champon;I run dread destiny for melee fun,draconic for xra spell pts/power and breath whepon. Fatesinger limits you to buffing roll mostly.Build is tough enough for epic hard runs,w a fighter hire.Shorten bard songs would help(oh u just did) party dont like waitin for all that.Rather self sufficient and ,w 2 thief lvls super versitile.Light armor/evasion/displacement .I can otto dance epic elite enemies,some bosses.mass cure.spellsong trance a tiny Army......common' ,fix what
    Mercyful Fate/ King Diamond link{ http://www.kingdiamondcoven.com } /''horror and moral terror are your friends'',Col. Kurtz/King Diamond Coven , lvl 80Ghallanda /51 Sarlona

  20. #80
    neck deep member Powskier's Avatar
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    Default Charging for dimension Door Use

    With so many Bard haters,think Ill start charging fee ,for DD!.......P>S>not to forget the raise dead scrolls ,all you bards,alot of the same haters will need raising in next raid.
    Mercyful Fate/ King Diamond link{ http://www.kingdiamondcoven.com } /''horror and moral terror are your friends'',Col. Kurtz/King Diamond Coven , lvl 80Ghallanda /51 Sarlona

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