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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Still a bit better than paladin? maybe...............
    Sure but only just, and both lose to pure Barb IMO.

    Bards have so many buffs and tensors scrolls they might actually just edge out a Pali for DPS. Obviously they are better heals displacement, and CC.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  2. #42
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    damage and attack bonus from inspire courage should scale.
    warchanter tree is so underwhelming (not worthy by ap investment) and needs improvement to give bards some dps options.

    and need more variety of songs, which should be actually useful and may bring many different aspects in group play.
    in these days, bards are singing or not, the only bard song people looking for is just spellsong vigor. nobody cares about other songs. there's no wonder why bards are so angry when their "only" useful song is "fixed" to single-target-only again.

  3. #43
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    I've always thought that if there was anything NWN did right it was Bards.

    In NWN Bards really were jack of all trades, masters of none. If you wanted a sneaky Bard you could but not without giving up being an AC tank. If you wanted a anti-melee bard you could, but god help you if a caster waddled over. Or you could focus on being an anti-caster with silence, taunt and sneaking! But your hp pool was tiny and melees would wreck you if they saw what you were doing to their caster.

    I think the biggest thing NWN got right that DDO doesn't is that bard song effects need to stack, not be unique. If investing in a large amount of Bard meant that every time you walked onto a team you gave EVERY buff, not just a little damage sometimes, some skills other times etc etc then you'd have a useful class feature.

    Currently Bards are just subpar all the time because the Bards songs don't make an impact.

    Oh and because you can't go Pally/Monk/Bard. If you could battle bards could possibly be around.
    In nwn and NWN2 you could make pretty powerful bards if you had access to certain prestige classes..........stormsinger, also loved that epic damage song though it might be OP, Bards in DDO need some more Offensive spell damage abilities especially with sonic damage, they don't have to be anywhere near sorc/wiz/druid ones but respectable and they should have some powerful debuffing, making vulnerable abilities with songs, so its possible to make a bard that has some offensive casting.

  4. #44
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Sure but only just, and both lose to pure Barb IMO.

    Bards have so many buffs and tensors scrolls they might actually just edge out a Pali for DPS. Obviously they are better heals displacement, and CC.
    yeah but theres a lot of daylight between the three and everything else.

  5. #45
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I can not stress enough how much the fact that since fascinated mobs ups the threat level on ee kills the ability on ee. Fascinate is totally inefficient on epic elite since you have to kills the mobs anyway and fascinate does not do anything to up the dps - it is totally inefficent in the current game.
    Yeah, you have to kill the mobs. That's generally what happens after mobs are cc'ed.

    Your vague post is a bit hard to decipher, but I assume you are comparing Bard cc to Mass Hold, since Mass Hold ups the DPS? Here are the Bard advantages: Fascinate is basically a no fail ability and full blown Spellsingers can also heal. There are advantages and disadvantages when comparing what they do to Wizard cc. It's not as simple as "they don't up the DPS much, they are bad."

    I suppose if you are looking for maximum ee farming efficiency, you would be looking for another group makeup. Personally, I play the game to actually play the game, and am grateful for the fact that my Bard can help builds that aren't of the FOTM variety get through quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Better to grab people off the lfm that can actually kill mobs.
    Bards should never ask to join LFMs. They should post them and lead.

  6. #46
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Yeah, you have to kill the mobs. That's generally what happens after mobs are cc'ed.

    Your vague post is a bit hard to decipher, but I assume you are comparing Bard cc to Mass Hold, since Mass Hold ups the DPS? Here are the Bard advantages: Fascinate is basically a no fail ability and full blown Spellsingers can also heal. There are advantages and disadvantages when comparing what they do to Wizard cc. It's not as simple as "they don't up the DPS much, they are bad."

    I suppose if you are looking for maximum ee farming efficiency, you would be looking for another group makeup. Personally, I play the game to actually play the game, and am grateful for the fact that my Bard can help builds that aren't of the FOTM variety get through quests.
    A shiradi wizard or sorc for example could drop an ice storm or fire wall and run around and do force missles that also cc mobs and all of this does dps to these mobs. The shiradi does more then adquate cc to mobs and a ton of dps to boot. Fascinate does no dps to mobs. The bard does no dps when it CCs. If a bard could cc and would not have to actually kill those mobs then that would be one thing, but since fascinate ups the alert level which means a party has to kill mobs then fascinate does nothing. Play some epic elite please tired of people posting here who do not play much epic elite about epic elite.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  7. #47
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Sure but only just, and both lose to pure Barb IMO.

    Bards have so many buffs and tensors scrolls they might actually just edge out a Pali for DPS. Obviously they are better heals displacement, and CC.
    No pallys have more dps because of smiting in fury of the wild. Not saying pallys do a ton of dps just that smiting can be decent..
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    No pallys have more dps because of smiting in fury of the wild. Not saying pallys do a ton of dps just that smiting can be decent..
    Okay fine, who cares, lets just say all three classes are in need of long sweet and slow romantic Dev lovin' with Barry White on in the background.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  9. #49
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    A shiradi wizard or sorc for example could drop an ice storm or fire wall and run around and do force missles that also cc mobs and all of this does dps to these mobs. The shiradi does more then adquate cc to mobs and a ton of dps to boot. Fascinate does no dps to mobs. The bard does no dps when it CCs. If a bard could cc and would not have to actually kill those mobs then that would be one thing, but since fascinate ups the alert level which means a party has to kill mobs then fascinate does nothing. Play some epic elite please tired of people posting here who do not play much epic elite about epic elite.
    I take it all back. Where can I sign up for one of those FOTM builds? A 6 man solo group sounds like a dream come true.

    I'm guessing the abuse you've been taking over your trolling has put you in a bad mood, because this is trollier than usual.

  10. #50
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    The thing with Fascinate that makes it so good is that if someone screws something up badly in any fight that isn't a boss fight, Fascinate can almost always prevent a wipe.

    It's not something you use much - but when you are overwhelmed, there is nothing more effective than fascinating everything, then breaking one mob's fascinate at a time and killing it. It's slow but very reliable.

    I could not count the number of EE wipes I have prevented that way after some idiot PUGger pulls four packs of mobs at once. Let the reckless person die, Fascinate everything, dance one of them, kill the dancing one, repeat. Once you've killed all thirty mobs solo, raise everyone except the reckless person, dump their stone in lava, then complete the quest.

    While this ability is good, however, it's too situational to warrant a party slot on its own.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  11. #51
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    No pallys have more dps because of smiting in fury of the wild. Not saying pallys do a ton of dps just that smiting can be decent..
    Yeah I used that but with the enhancement pass My pally seemed to have ended up with fewer net smites esp from when he was in Kotc? And it was a pain in quests with a lot of mobs to kill, even with that US ability that makes smites regen faster slotted in I found I was running out of smites pretty fast, 2wf though I had more than enough adrenalin's.

  12. #52
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    The thing with Fascinate that makes it so good is that if someone screws something up badly in any fight that isn't a boss fight, Fascinate can almost always prevent a wipe.

    It's not something you use much - but when you are overwhelmed, there is nothing more effective than fascinating everything, then breaking one mob's fascinate at a time and killing it. It's slow but very reliable.

    I could not count the number of EE wipes I have prevented that way after some idiot PUGger pulls four packs of mobs at once. Let the reckless person die, Fascinate everything, dance one of them, kill the dancing one, repeat. Once you've killed all thirty mobs solo, raise everyone except the reckless person, dump their stone in lava, then complete the quest.

    While this ability is good, however, it's too situational to warrant a party slot on its own.
    I got annoyed though when I had the enhancement to fascinate constructs and undead.......and someone did this, all the mobs where undead or constructs, I thought yay I can handle this................it was bugged lol.

  13. #53
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I take it all back. Where can I sign up for one of those FOTM builds? A 6 man solo group sounds like a dream come true.

    I'm guessing the abuse you've been taking over your trolling has put you in a bad mood, because this is trollier than usual.
    No you literally do not get it. I am trying to educate you, but you do not play much or whatever. This is not just shiradi its the way a lot of the the builds work on EE the mechanics, etc. You can invis through stuff and at some point you have to fight things, healers are not in demand because the fact that there are so few healers has led a lot of people adjust to life without healers. Its a different dynamic. Bards are my favorite class, but there has not been much reason to play my bards because the one thing they both do well is heal which is not that important anymore - they do not dps, the cc they provide is inadequate, and even a tank provides more utility.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  14. #54
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    Yeah I used that but with the enhancement pass My pally seemed to have ended up with fewer net smites esp from when he was in Kotc?
    Paladins lost the +1 Smite Evil KOTC autogrant at 6, 12, and 18 just like Kensais lost the +1 tactical DC at 6, 12, and 18 autogrant. It's a shame.

  15. #55
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    The thing with Fascinate that makes it so good is that if someone screws something up badly in any fight that isn't a boss fight, Fascinate can almost always prevent a wipe.

    It's not something you use much - but when you are overwhelmed, there is nothing more effective than fascinating everything, then breaking one mob's fascinate at a time and killing it. It's slow but very reliable.

    I could not count the number of EE wipes I have prevented that way after some idiot PUGger pulls four packs of mobs at once. Let the reckless person die, Fascinate everything, dance one of them, kill the dancing one, repeat. Once you've killed all thirty mobs solo, raise everyone except the reckless person, dump their stone in lava, then complete the quest.

    While this ability is good, however, it's too situational to warrant a party slot on its own.
    you can do that with other characters. I just run a character with some self healing about and some tankish stuff around raise the people and rinse and repeat. This is very old school talk that you put here. That playstyle you put out is from a long time ago - it is never necessary to fascinate.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  16. #56
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    you can do that with other characters. I just run a character with some self healing about and some tankish stuff around raise the people and rinse and repeat. This is very old school talk that you put here. That playstyle you put out is from a long time ago - it is never necessary to fascinate.
    Kiting has been overpowered a long time in DDO. The fact that kiting is OP and achieves the same goals as Fascinate does not stop Fascinate being strong, especially as a fair number of mobs have at least mild countermeasures to kiting now.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Might not match other classes in DPS but no other class can match them in CC DC.
    That breaks if someone passes wind in any meaningful content.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  18. #58
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    That breaks if someone passes wind in any meaningful content.
    Agreed. Now, if they had a Hold Monster or Paralysis effect that had the same DC as Fascinate, then they might be able to vie for that title. Currenly, I'd say druids have better CC. Earthquake + Mantle of the Icy Soul + Beguile is quite a combo.
    Last edited by HatsuharuZ; 12-10-2013 at 11:20 PM.

  19. #59
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    Agreed. Now, if they had a Hold Monster or Paralysis effect that had the same DC as Fascinate, then they might be able to vie for that title. Currenly, I'd say druids have better CC. Earthquake + Mantle of the Icy Soul + Beguile is quite a combo.
    Or if Enthrall granted a second save - but not with a bonus equal to the damage taken - maybe each hit gives them a new save with an increasing bon, warus +4/8/12 whatever.

    I still think they should add an option to have one of 3 spells added on the spellsinger capstone - Wail, Mass Hold Monster, whatever that sonic dot they were thinking ... tie Marigold Crown, Prodigy and the capstone to each give an option to boost one spell or another.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  20. #60
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    I see a lot of feedback based on poor play stile and talking about bards weaknesses. Lets talk about some of there strengths.

    (1) Amazing nitch CC.
    (2) Really solid healing.
    (3) great melee based spells.

    The jugernaught build was a rage before the update, many people seam to really like playing selfhealing melee/ranged toons. A bard can make a really good base for this type of toon. Also anyone who thinks facinate is no good, go run an EE quest where you only cast invis and sing fascinate then fury shot the boss.

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