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  1. #21
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    I would like to see all the buff songs work sort of like meta-magics. You toggle them on and it increases the number of songs used but you only have to sing one song.
    I like this idea... Toggle which songs you can sing. Pretty neat concept and would greatly speed up the buffing for impatient players (like myself) who hate burring time doing nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    About Gathering Frost...

    Make it a guard that deals 1d6 cold damage, plus 1d6 additional cold damage per 10 bard levels. In addition, it would have an effect that gives 1 stack of DR/adamantine whenever the bard is struck for six seconds, and is capped by bard class levels.
    I am not a fan of guards. I don't want to get hit.

    I would rather that Gathering Frost functions like Summer Smoke (but without angry monk effects) or that it applied a 1d6 per 4 bard levels to your weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Bards worst feature is that they do the least dps of any class in DDO
    Behind Paladins even? My bard runs around with 62STR, way more than my Paladin ever had. Can cast Hage, DDoor and Buff unlike a Paladin. The issue is the time it takes to sing songs and some of the enhancements are brutally bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Bard only has one true handicap that I've noticed, and every thread that comes up about it seems to prove it: Everybody wants to be the Knight, nobody wants to be the squire.
    I won't deny that Bards aren't a support class. But they don't have the saves, damage mitigation or "Deadly Please" that other "support" classes have. A boost to the class won't kill monks and wouldn't push out other support characters. Faster buffing would improve QP since all buffs would be applied at quest zone in so that Monks can go assassinate everything.
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  2. #22
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    No useful/powerful Magical Items (Staves/Wondrous Items/etc), pnp has such a huge amount of those that i often sacrificed xp to build them because they were so helpful.

    Almost no need for skills in Quests, honestly only quest i remember right now where you can do something else than smash the **** out of enemys is Party Crashers.


    Bards were among my favorites in pnp but in ddo there are just not enough things you can do with your char.
    Let us have all the crazy powerful Wondrous Items we could get in pnp.
    Give us more ways to solve quests, preferable utilizing skills and attribute checks or even paying my way through the quest. (i more often hired the trolls guarding whatever than fighting them ^^ )
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  3. #23
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    The biggest problems are, that they:
    Do not heal well
    Have no spell-dps
    Poor melee
    Sub-par CC (fascinate is only reliably landing CC, and it's bad in a party environment)
    Have poor buffs (1-2min+ to sing, 6+min durations)
    Poor saves (with no monk/paladin splits to help)

    If you can't heal, DPS or buff, piking is the only option.

  4. #24
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atremus View Post
    I am not a fan of guards. I don't want to get hit.

    I would rather that Gathering Frost functions like Summer Smoke (but without angry monk effects) or that it applied a 1d6 per 4 bard levels to your weapon.
    Well, under the current AC system, you are going to get hit anyways, so why not get some use out of it?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Bard only has one true handicap that I've noticed, and every thread that comes up about it seems to prove it: Everybody wants to be the Knight, nobody wants to be the squire. Bards are easily the best support class in the game.
    •With so many skill points, a tiny splash of Arti or Rogue allows for traps (and with Rogue adds evasion) while having a minimal impact on any of their other abilities.

    •They're poor puggers, but a gift to designed parties (ie guild/static groups). While some of the bard buffs don't stack with gear - they can replace it, allowing you to slot something else without loosing the bonus. No need to scroll/swap in GH clicky if bard is giving Good Hope.

    •Spot or even main healing.

    •Mana batteries for casters.

    •Crowd Control.

    But those are roles nobody wants to fill these days. That's the biggest problem with Bards - IMO ofc
    There's certainly truth to this but it's also the case that Druids and Arti's perform about 3/4 of these Bard roles while also having compelling DPS options at the same time. Druid caster SLA are stronger than Sorc and Wizards (One shot stuff with call lightning for 4sp or whatever it is) Arti's likewise have great SLA's

    Druid no buffs but Better melee and casting DPS options with comparable healing
    Arti no healing but buffs (that are often more impactful and of obvious utility for bypassing DR and iumproving weapon damage, casting or ranged DPS far exceeding Bards.

    Bards are crowded out of their niche by more focused utility classes that are usually better at the focused things and certainly better DPS, while not suffering from the anemic enhancement tree that was possibly the most hack slapdash effort besides Protector (and arguably Paladin). While other already stronger classes got buffed by their new trees Bards arguably got nerfed...

    Where were you people when I was besieged by "leave Brittany... errrr....Bard's alone!!!!" Bard lovers a few months back? Enjoying watching me squirm? LOL.
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  6. #26
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemoneyes View Post
    No useful/powerful Magical Items (Staves/Wondrous Items/etc), pnp has such a huge amount of those that i often sacrificed xp to build them because they were so helpful.
    One of the problems in this game is that there is a huge gap between the DCs of offensive items and spells cast by players. Bards as a UMD class would be alot more useful if offensive wands were more useful.

  7. #27
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post

    Druid no buffs but Better melee and casting DPS options with comparable healing
    Actually, druids do have buffs. Resist energy, protection from energy, jump, freedom of movement, stoneskin, and deathward to name the most used buffs. And these are all buffs that bards don't get. And druids are much better healers with resto, regen, etc.

    As a matter of fact, I've considered giving up my bard for a druid. After playing pure fighters and pure casters, I've really decided I prefer to play a hybrid. I've played a bard in PnP and it was a tremendous character to play. In DDO the druid is a much better "jack of all trades" than a bard simply because it can kill stuff. Crowd control is limited to earthquake, but that's darn good cc. Healing is better, and while the buffs don't help other folks dps, freedom of movement and deathward are certainly popular.

    With the enhancement pass giving the druid very powerful SLAs, it solves the problem of the limited sp pool that was a problem in the past for druids that did any offensive casting.

  8. #28
    Community Member N-0cturn's Avatar
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    Nvm - seems like its to late and I only post nonsense.

    I agree with the previous statements. Bards need a valid DPS Option. They can get quite a bit of Sonic SP and Crit Chance, but without decent Spells or SLAs this is worth nothing.
    Last edited by N-0cturn; 12-10-2013 at 07:49 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Bards are easily the best support class in the game.
    They are the only support class. Cleric was arguably a support class in the past, but it has warpriest now (not that you couldn't be an aggressive cleric before) and ironically enough, features a cha to damage spell in it's first tier for melee.

    What other support classes are there?

    There is nothing wrong with playing a bard or a cleric as a support class if you want to, but for your favorite diety's sake, there should be choices! Warchanter should be a real choice for those who don't want to be a squire. Warpriest seems to be pretty good and pretty popular, so why not?

  10. #30
    Community Member Chilldude's Avatar
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    Fascinate is not only great, it's super powerful, in weak groups running low level quests with large packs of mobs. Butcher Path... oh yeah buddy! Water Works... that one back room past the shrines where the door closes on your group and it's filled with shaman, it works the charm. Irestone Inlet much fun to be had there.

    Try it for yourself.

    Have 5 of your friends build toons with random stats, buy them some weapons from the weapon vendor in the harbor, and then enjoy levels 2 and 3 while you tear up the harbor! Then delete the character and move on with your life.

    Sad but true.

    I love bards! I'd like to sit here and tell you all about how a properly built and played bard can really turn the tide in battle, but that's just not the case. The bard is bested by another class in every single ability available to the bard. If you want to be a CC specialist, wizard is the superior choice by far. Healing: divines. Melee: who isn't better at melee? Caster: greater shout is about the only offensive spell the bard even has.

    Then there is the buff bluff.

    Like I said, I love bards. Bard's Tale was my absolute favorite game ages ago. Eventually I decided to get over how wimpy bards are in DDO and roll one up. "He doesn't have to be great, if he's good, or even decent, then combined with his buffs and back up healing ability he'll be an asset to the group overall.", is the lie I tried to convince myself to believe. So I rolled up a pure, CHA based, Spell Singer.

    Truth be told, 95% of the buffs the bard has you can get from pots, clickies, casters, gear, yadda yadda yadda. NOBODY would ever know if they were under the influence of a bard melee boosting song without looking at their buffs, and it takes so long to sing, last such a short time, and people are never grouped up anyway. It'd be a thousand times better if a battle song only lasted 30 seconds, and the bard couldn't do anything but sing during the song, but the melee did 50% more damage during the song. As it stands, the buff is so negligible that it's hardly worth singing.

    Yet, as a spell singer, I could help refill those all important blue bars!!! Surely that's worth the price of admission? Except it isn't. +2 +2 whoop dee woo! It's another cast or two between shrines. In a full group mana is easily manageable anyway, and in a small group those couple of extra spells you give a caster certainly doesn't make up for your weak DPS.

    Nothing the Bard can do can make up for what it can't.

    But... Fascinate.

    From level 2-3 my bard probably did save a group or two from obliteration by hordes of kobolds. Then there was that that time in Frame Work where he really saved the day at the end fight, keeping the party from being overwhelmed. There was also that time where... well... ummm... yeah... that's kinda it. I figured eventually, in EE, maybe he'd be useful again. Not really. It actually gets worse! As you go up in levels the Bard just gets weaker and weaker.

    My Spell Singer is fully enchantment focused with max CHA, but in high level content, even if his DCs weren't too low, his spell pen most certainly is. From a CC aspect, it'd be much better to go evocation focused because the only CC spell you have a hope at landing as a bard is greater shout.

    Thus, the making the Bard a one trick pony with Fascinate, but the few groups that have it together enough to make use of it aren't going to need it.

    Novelty.

    This is where the bard shines. NOBODY plays bard, so you can play one for the novelty of it. Something different merely for the sake of being different.

  11. #31
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Bards worst feature is that they do the least dps of any class in DDO. When you combine this with their song buffs they still are the worst dps class. The utility that bards have is not enough to make up for their lack of dps. They can not reliably instakill, significantly enhance others dps (can not cast mass hold, bard song buffs are platry), have no natural ability to do much dps either with weapons or with spells. They can heal a party, but since everyone heals themselves this is not an in demand skill like it once was.
    Might not match other classes in DPS but no other class can match them in CC DC.

    Not to mention at the very heart of D&D not all classess are equal by design.

    If you want all classess to be equal to each other it would be high time to find some lowest common denominator vanilla game, something single player.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  12. #32
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    The biggest problems are, that they:
    Do not heal well
    Have no spell-dps
    Poor melee
    Sub-par CC (fascinate is only reliably landing CC, and it's bad in a party environment)
    Have poor buffs (1-2min+ to sing, 6+min durations)
    Poor saves (with no monk/paladin splits to help)

    If you can't heal, DPS or buff, piking is the only option.
    Spoken like one that has never played a Bard or built a real crappy one if at all.

    Biggest problem with Bard, beyond the ignorance, is the 5/11 OTHER people in party.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  13. #33
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Might not match other classes in DPS but no other class can match them in CC DC.

    Not to mention at the very heart of D&D not all classess are equal by design.

    If you want all classess to be equal to each other it would be high time to find some lowest common denominator vanilla game, something single player.
    I would be fine if the devs doubled the benefits of inspire courage and added either mass flesh to stone or mass hold person to the bard spell list instead of upping any personal dps. That would mean that bards could add a lot more dps to a party then they currently do. Fascinate is a very poor ability throughtout much of the history of DDO. Fascinate is not a very successful tactic with these linear dungeon must kill red or orange names red alert despite fascinating mobs aspects of DDO. If they removed the adding to alert levels when you fascinate mobs that would be helpful to bards as well.
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  14. #34
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    I really like the idea of Bard songs as buffing aura's like Paladin auras but maybe larger AOE. Even better though add in the ability for the Bard to change/select what their "audible aura" i.e. the song they are singing/chanting gives off. and increment the abilities with Bard levels.

    Make each a substantial buff and allow the bard to choose 1 extra buff every 4 levels 1st level 5th 9th 13th 17th and a capstone that adds another. You could call each buff a "refrain"

    Each "song" could have a unique set of refrains so the active buffs can be changed by singing a different song,

    Then make each "refrain" both more focused and more impactful (stacking with everything and never ever given away as ship buffs again) and allow the Bard to "compose" his songs/chants with them.

    For example you could have a 13th level Bard song with:

    Enthrall, 2% chance that Monsters within earshot are unable to take action (Dazed) unless they save DC 10 + Perform skill (Gets +2% increase at 10 Bard levels and Capstone adds 1% more)
    Inspire +1 to hit and +1 Will save (+1 per 3 Bard levels + Capstone)
    Embolden +1 to Damage and +1 Seeker (+1 per 3 Bard levels + Capstone)
    Run To The Hills (Bard level 3)10% per tick chance perform + DC 10 save or Monsters run away out of your songs Aura (note useful as lowbie, or in EE's advise turning off in Heroic pugs)

    They could keep the dedicated version of Fascinate just like it currently is and keep a few of the current situational Bard songs. At higher levels with 6 refrains going the Bard could have a "CC" song and a "buffs" song and mixtures of the two that he can change up and modify as needed.

    20th level Bard CC Song (6 refrains):
    Enthrall
    Caper (2% chance as Enthrall only Dances Mob until saves versus Perform)
    Enrapture 1% chance (+1% at 10 and 20) to Stun (helpless damage)
    Insidious Repetition Enemies Can't get that tune out of their heads -1 will save debuff (-1 per 3 Bard Lvl's)
    Fey Cacophony 1% chance (Shiradi/Queen random proc +1% at 15 and another with capstone)
    Sonorous Melody Reactions dulled by deceptive melodies -1 reflex save (etc)

    Then have a Buffs Song:
    Inspire
    Stand and Deliver Allies in your range who stop and attack receive a stacking +1 to damage until they move give stack at least a little forgiveness for minor movement say 2 stacks at a time, max stack something like 10 damage.
    Embolden
    Hearten +1 Fort Saves for Allies (etc.)
    The Mob Rules level 16 Bard +1 to (Vorpal 20 rolls only) Crit Multipliers of all Allies
    Ruinic Refrain +2 stacking temp spell points every 4 seconds (+1 at 10th +1 at capstone) can stack up to Bards Perform skill total mod.

    Other ideas:
    D'yer Mak'er 18th level Bard 5% chance that Enemies that stay in your range must make a wil save or then make a fortitude save or Die (Capstone: sucessful Saves take Perform skill in sonic damage (modified by Sonic Spower and crit%) can not trigger more than once every 10 seconds

    Frenzied Riffing
    All allies within earshot get 5% movement/Alacrity bonus and +1 reflex

    Sonic Drop sonic damage spells have a 2% chance to knock down enemies (+2 at 15 +3 at 20)

    Reverb-ed out +2% stacking sonic vulnerability to all mobs in ear shot up to 30%

    Meh I would settle for Wall of Sound, Sound Lance, a Sonic DOT and Greater shout working like Scorch.
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-10-2013 at 08:39 PM.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  15. #35
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    I agree that a lot of the Warchanter enhancements aren't up to snuff. They could use a lot of improvement. I also agree that a Bard's group damage buff hasn't scaled well enough in the last year or two to make Bards important or relevant in that way anymore. There are definitely some areas that Bards need improvement.

    To be fair though, I think Fascinate is one of the absolute best abilities in the game. It takes communication and leadership to use it in a PUG (the kind that I don't possess), but if people are coached on how to interact with the enemies, it's crazy good for keeping those million monster spawns in ee content manageable. Sure, it's a PITA if you are trying to use it in a group full of monkchers or shiradis, but should Bards really be joining those groups anyway? Grab a bunch of melees and show 'em a good time. Grab the Heal capstone, cc the heck out of the enemies, twist in Renewel and Cocoon, and single handedly bring back team play. With a little bit of communication and a couple ground rules laid down, Bards can literally play the healer role and the cc role in groups right now, and I find that bananas. I even have decent luck doing spell cc on my Spellsinger, although there are a lot of past lives and debuff spells that contribute to the success rate.

    As for DPS, the class itself gets little. On the bright side, 2-5 levels of almost anything gets you a ton of power, so I feel like Bards can splash away and get great results.

    Overall, I think Bards are amazeballs right now, but the OP and many of the posters in this thread have brought up very valid points about areas that Bards need improvement, particularly in the Warchanter tree.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 12-10-2013 at 08:44 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Spoken like one that has never played a Bard
    On the contrary the person who's never played a Bard is the one that's never done it in a pug.

    This comes up over and over and is so incredibly tiresome... Fascinate is a horrible ability in 99% of content because no one wants to play "let the Bard feel useful" it takes forever to get the song off, and is ruined the moment someone drops the ice storm (that is to say it's always ruined) or procs a Sunburst off Celestia (umpteen million other AOE melee procs) OR does the party the disservice of having THF Improved THF and Greater THF. Oh the horror how dare you bring a AGAXE great axe or that eSoS into my Fascinate bard fap party.

    In EE's and in static groups or organized guild parties Fascinate is the most reliably landing CC... So what, Mass hold monster is of better utility, as Fascinate is broken the moment anything takes any damage, and gives no helpless bonus.

    So we should base our appraisal of Bards on 1% of the players who love them because their EE/Static/Guild group works as a team? And their high Perform skill means they lock every room down and slog away at one mob at a time? Or should we be realistic?

    If such "Bards are godly in 1% of the game" types are clouding the issue with a stuborn insistence that the game comes to them and plays their way, or everyone ELSE is wrong/Bad/never played a Bard; then I think we should ignore the 1%ers in favor of everyone else who has to play a Bard without 5 other cooperative party members letting the Bard do his thing 15 times per rest.

    Once again the person who's never played a Bard is the one that's never done it in a pug, and thinks Fascinate is amazing because of that.
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-10-2013 at 09:00 PM.
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  17. #37
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    I agree that a lot of the Warchanter enhancements aren't up to snuff. They could use a lot of improvement. I also agree that a Bard's group damage buff hasn't scaled well enough in the last year or two to make Bards important or relevant in that way anymore. There are definitely some areas that Bards need improvement.

    To be fair though, I think Fascinate is one of the absolute best abilities in the game. It takes communication and leadership to use it in a PUG (the kind that I don't possess), but if people are coached on how to interact with the enemies, it's crazy good for keeping those million monster spawns in ee content manageable. .
    I can not stress enough how much the fact that since fascinated mobs ups the threat level on ee kills the ability on ee. Fascinate is totally inefficient on epic elite since you have to kills the mobs anyway and fascinate does not do anything to up the dps - it is totally inefficent in the current game. Better to grab people off the lfm that can actually kill mobs.
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  18. #38
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Still a bit better than paladin? maybe...............

  19. #39
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    I've always thought that if there was anything NWN did right it was Bards.

    In NWN Bards really were jack of all trades, masters of none. If you wanted a sneaky Bard you could but not without giving up being an AC tank. If you wanted a anti-melee bard you could, but god help you if a caster waddled over. Or you could focus on being an anti-caster with silence, taunt and sneaking! But your hp pool was tiny and melees would wreck you if they saw what you were doing to their caster.

    I think the biggest thing NWN got right that DDO doesn't is that bard song effects need to stack, not be unique. If investing in a large amount of Bard meant that every time you walked onto a team you gave EVERY buff, not just a little damage sometimes, some skills other times etc etc then you'd have a useful class feature.

    Currently Bards are just subpar all the time because the Bards songs don't make an impact.

    Oh and because you can't go Pally/Monk/Bard. If you could battle bards could possibly be around.

  20. #40
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    The purpose of this thread is to show what the biggest problems with bard enhancements are, and maybe gives ideas on how to fix them (or what to replace certain enhancements with, if you think an enhancement is unsalvageable).

    My top 5, in no particular order:

    1) WC bards don't get access to martial weapon proficiency until level 12.

    2) "Boast" isn't very useful, since the duration of the +1[W] effect is based on a set amount of temporary HP.

    3) "Gathering Cold" is too unlikely to proc, and what it gives is not very useful.

    4) "Iced Edges" should be replaced with the "Elemental Weapons" spell from the artificer spell list, or something similar.

    5) "Frozen Fury" becomes less useful as character levels go up, since the DC doesn't scale very well.
    the biggest problem is that their inspire courage never scaled up since the advent of epic levels. back in the day +9 damage was a big deal, now from a relative standpoint, it's less of buff percentage wise.

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