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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Kensai dual classed to mage says 'Hi, nothing else in AD&D can even compare to me'.
    dual class is not multiclass, dual class take a lot of time and you would probably have hard times comparing to our party (never did a dual class, i liked wizard pure builds in pnp tbh)


    and for the person above, again, a multiclass wizard/something at level 20 would be wizard level 15 or 16 with another 13/14 levels of another class (or like level 18 rogue, but meh, rogues in AD&D) or so so i stick with my level 20 ranger or paladin. This said, my group improved some ranger and paly kits now that i remember though.


    And don't forget human cannot multiclass in AD&D (just dual class), so most viable for multiclass was elf who's always a bit squishier

  2. #142
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    I'm thinking mainly back to BG2 here and a 9 Kensai / Mage dual class. While it took longer to level up, you entered god mode after your kensai levels reactivate, plus you gained much more HP.

    After that they 'streamlined' multiclassing to 'just tame whatever you want on whatever race you play whenever you want, as long as certain requirements are met'. It became a lot simpler.

    They also heavily nerfed caster multiclassing because doing so made your spells less effective if you were splashing in other classes.

  3. #143
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Kensai dual classed to mage says 'Hi, nothing else in AD&D can even compare to me'.
    I used something very similar as a villain when I was DMing. I mention his name to my old players 10 years later they still look scared.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I used something very similar as a villain when I was DMing. I mention his name to my old players 10 years later they still look scared.
    I'm terrified.

  5. #145
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    Timestop > Kai > Hack slash > Dead.

    Enemy sighted > Improved Haste, Magic Weapon Immunity, Magic Energy Immunity contingency > Hach slash, lol lol lol, you dead.

    Enemy mage sighted? Breach it and throw energy blades at its head till its dead.

  6. #146
    Founder xberto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    The choice:

    Nerf multiclass, or buff pure classes.

    The issue:

    To buff the pure classes it would require a re-think of both the level 18 enhancements and level 20 capstones. This would require significant effort to ensure that the boosts are enough to make pure classes viable, but not so much that they swing the pendulum too far the other way.

    Or the easy option is to simply nerf multiclass. My guess is they are more interested in the easy options.
    I think this really is the choice. I'm a purist and like to build within a singe enhancement tree or two. I do however respect my creative peers options for multiclassing.

    My vote would be to improve the capstones.
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  7. #147
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xberto View Post
    I think this really is the choice. I'm a purist and like to build within a singe enhancement tree or two. I do however respect my creative peers options for multiclassing.

    My vote would be to improve the capstones.
    There needs to be a little bit of both. Capstones need buffage and the nerfs might just be as simple as nerfing what stacks with what.

  8. #148
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoukchuk View Post
    Smart players will learn the game faster with an enhanced character sheet because they'll understand the mechanics better just by seeing what's on it. On top of listing all stats (like spell crit chance), accurate #s (unlike dodge currently), and a detailed breakdown of what contributes to those #s on mouse-over they should also include a "will be missed by X attack roll" for AC and "will hit X on a 2, Y on a 10, Z on a 19) for attack.
    While I agree with you, not everyone is a uber-gamer who invests all of their spare time into MMOs. And those people tend to move on when a new, flashier MMO rolls around. You need to keep in mind the people who are not invested in the notion of being a “gamer.” I’m one of them.

    As for the rest, you’re probably correct.

  9. #149
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Kensai dual classed to mage says 'Hi, nothing else in AD&D can even compare to me'.
    Arcane trickster built right can sit at the same table.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #150
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    I just dislike that now if you don't invest approximately 2-3 weeks into research you can't reasonably expect to play this game at a high level (referring mostly to epics, not EE - the purpose of EE is to compete with cheese builds).

    Many of you here have been here for SO long that you've forgotten the incredible burden of knowledge that this game places on its new players. Hell, 90% of you STILL don't know how the majority of the mechanics work in this game. Today I asked questions about Arti. Deadly Weapons and got 2 different answers. Every time I mention the word "shield bash" people tell me that shield bashes can't proc. during regular swings - this hasn't been true for at least 2 1/2 months -at least-. That doesn't even begin to address more significant interactions that would require at least a months time investment to investigate.

    This, more than everything else, is what powercreep does to ruin game experiences. It's not that every toon ends up carrying the game laundry list of advantages, it's that your game becomes so inaccessible to new players that 'getting started' feels like WAY to much work.

    This was daunting even more me, and I spent years playing NWN on an arena server experimenting with builds and combos to maximize every ounce of power/find niche builds that nobody had considered before. It took me 3 tries to start DDO because I twice I couldn't be bothered to really sit down and "start" the learning process.
    -------

    The other truly terrible thing about powercreep is that everyone starts to look the same:
    Evasion
    50-60 saves
    500-700 damage a hit (I'm pulling these out of my ass, don't get up in arms)
    50% concealment
    25% incorporeal
    900-1000 hp
    Manyshot
    Power attack
    Pajama's

    How many well built EE melees don't have everyone single one of those? MAYBE they don't have incorporeal, maybe. Why does everyone have this? Because you can't survive without it. Why can't you survive without it? Because if 3-4 builds can cakewalk it then more people want to feel like Superman and those 3-4 builds end up being the same handful of builds in every game (or at least 2-3 of them).

    Why is that a problem? Because now Turbine has to make content HARD for THOSE builds. Any guesses to what happens if you don't have nearly everything on that list (as a melee)? Try building something that doesn't where pajama's, have evasion and incorporeal 25%. Or try and have 2 weak saves. Or try and have lower end damage. You die. Thousands of builds don't work in EE, because a handful of powercreeped classes have been allowed to invalidate ALL of them. What's worse, is that Turbine MUST cater to the highest common denominator because others the game has "no end game content."

    This is what powercreep does, it makes everything the same. Once it reaches a point of total silliness you might as well restart the game and make everyone level 1 Fighters with power attack, longswords and shields.
    - It's effectively the same thing (even if it would be more boring)

    PS: If you honestly don't believe in powercreep you're at least a decade behind in game design. For some fun, interesting starter material try out this Penny Arcade video (http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep)

  11. #151
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Actually rounds per level is how it used to be originally. And contingencies were lovely.
    Some old school buffs were hours per level, and many were turns per level. Rounds per level happened more often in 3e and up.

    Some like resists were immunity to (element) where nowdays its a point value.

    Yeah, a prepared old school wizard who basically handed the Dm a sheet of paper saying "I cast these buffs on myself after I wake up every morning" was not squishy in terms of easy to kill. It was only when they were unprepared that they could be crushed.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #152
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    I just dislike that now if you don't invest approximately 2-3 weeks into research you can't reasonably expect to play this game at a high level (referring mostly to epics, not EE - the purpose of EE is to compete with cheese builds).

    Many of you here have been here for SO long that you've forgotten the incredible burden of knowledge that this game places on its new players. Hell, 90% of you STILL don't know how the majority of the mechanics work in this game. Today I asked questions about Arti. Deadly Weapons and got 2 different answers. Every time I mention the word "shield bash" people tell me that shield bashes can't proc. during regular swings - this hasn't been true for at least 2 1/2 months -at least-. That doesn't even begin to address more significant interactions that would require at least a months time investment to investigate.

    This, more than everything else, is what powercreep does to ruin game experiences. It's not that every toon ends up carrying the game laundry list of advantages, it's that your game becomes so inaccessible to new players that 'getting started' feels like WAY to much work.

    This was daunting even more me, and I spent years playing NWN on an arena server experimenting with builds and combos to maximize every ounce of power/find niche builds that nobody had considered before. It took me 3 tries to start DDO because I twice I couldn't be bothered to really sit down and "start" the learning process.
    -------

    The other truly terrible thing about powercreep is that everyone starts to look the same:
    Evasion
    50-60 saves
    500-700 damage a hit (I'm pulling these out of my ass, don't get up in arms)
    50% concealment
    25% incorporeal
    900-1000 hp
    Manyshot
    Power attack
    Pajama's

    How many well built EE melees don't have everyone single one of those? MAYBE they don't have incorporeal, maybe. Why does everyone have this? Because you can't survive without it. Why can't you survive without it? Because if 3-4 builds can cakewalk it then more people want to feel like Superman and those 3-4 builds end up being the same handful of builds in every game (or at least 2-3 of them).

    Why is that a problem? Because now Turbine has to make content HARD for THOSE builds. Any guesses to what happens if you don't have nearly everything on that list (as a melee)? Try building something that doesn't where pajama's, have evasion and incorporeal 25%. Or try and have 2 weak saves. Or try and have lower end damage. You die. Thousands of builds don't work in EE, because a handful of powercreeped classes have been allowed to invalidate ALL of them. What's worse, is that Turbine MUST cater to the highest common denominator because others the game has "no end game content."

    This is what powercreep does, it makes everything the same. Once it reaches a point of total silliness you might as well restart the game and make everyone level 1 Fighters with power attack, longswords and shields.
    - It's effectively the same thing (even if it would be more boring)

    PS: If you honestly don't believe in powercreep you're at least a decade behind in game design. For some fun, interesting starter material try out this Penny Arcade video (http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep)
    Anyone who complains that EE is waaay different from EH needs to read this post. EH is balanced for off destinies and EE for synergizing full destiny, and destinies represent the single largest power creep in the game, bar none. Thats why they are so different.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #153
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    I don't know about you, must not have played a lot of table top or not with a lot of creative players who knew how to build Multi classes characters.

    Multi Classing is one of the things that makes DDO not boring.

    Generally speaking, a reason to multiclass arises when the low-level class features of one base class outshine the later class features of another.

    Your racist again Warforged and Bladefordged and that's fine but there are 7 other races and 3 more Iconic you can choose to play.


    Stop thinking of Character Classes as a career path that one much follow.

    Think of it more like different experiences your Character has along the journey.

    I've played every class and I mix in the classes into my builds that give me the abilities I want my character to have.

    No one here buys your BS quishywizzy

    DDO is based loosely on DnD 3.5 and Multiclassing in 3.5 was what made 3.5 truly great.

    Break out of your Pure mind state and realize there is more to the game than being a one trick pony.
    My “BS?”

    I probably played DnD when most of you people were still in your mother’s womb. However, while I liked the whole RPG fantasy thing, I didn’t wed myself to the game like some of you. I took on other interests, especially seeing that AD&D and D&D were games better suited to a social setting, and I had no access to that sort of environment. Oh, and I grew up and had a family.

    So DDO give me an outlet and a social experience in a fantasy game setting. I just happened to join this game over maybe WoW, mainly because the connection to D&D and the various mythos of the past that I found interesting.

    Likewise, when I started this game, I knew next to nothing about character building, gear, and all that sort of stuff. I learned as I went. That being said, contrasting pure and mixed-classes, if I had to learn multi-classing from the get-go to be included in groups and so on, I would have dumped the game long ago. And I don’t think I am atypical of the new player population.

    So , my “BS” comes from direct personal experience, and from professional experience with watching and utilizing end-user feedback for - I dunno – a couple of decades and then some.

    Your experience, however, comes from some high school notion that you are God’s gift to all RPGs because, well, you know how to multiclass…and stuff.

    Pffth.

    Plus, where have I said – anywhere – that multi-classing needs to go away? All I said is that it needs to be nerfed. And I am correct in my assessment.

    And yeah, I am racist against WF and BF. They need to know their place – mainly as bards and stable cleaners.

  14. #154
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post

    The other truly terrible thing about powercreep is that everyone starts to look the same:

    ...

    Why is that a problem? Because now Turbine has to make content HARD for THOSE builds. Any guesses to what happens if you don't have nearly everything on that list (as a melee)? Try building something that doesn't where pajama's, have evasion and incorporeal 25%. Or try and have 2 weak saves. Or try and have lower end damage. You die. Thousands of builds don't work in EE, because a handful of powercreeped classes have been allowed to invalidate ALL of them.
    Well said. The solution to this would be variety of builds capable of doing top content with same performance. First thing to do is make a team with specialized roles work better than 6x [insert build here].

  15. #155
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    A fighter isn't designed to be the highest dps. They're designed to be the broadest generalist with the option to specialise if they choose to. That's why they have so many feats. So a multi-class build should definitely be able to out-dps them.
    So the guy who is master of the battlefield should NOT be considered as someone who should have superior melee DPS? That really doesn’t make a whole lotta sense. In fact, it makes no sense whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    And what would this dedicated trapper bring to the party?
    Umm…trapping?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If their trapper skills were so beyond the reach of anyone else then they would either (a) be ridiculously over-specced for any trap they come across (b) be required to do certain uber-level-traps introduced to cater to their uber-skills. Neither of these bring anything interesting to the game. Trapping is an interesting sideline that any class with a passable number of skill points and the relevant splash can bring to a party.
    And BAM: you hit the problem right on the head. I can take 18 levels as a PM, and 2 of them as a rogue, and I am as good a trapper as a rogue that invested ALL of their levels into rogue stuff. And THAT is the problem right there. A pure rogue should be the guy that you want disabling traps in epic content, not the guy who splashed two levels in the class. But right now, it makes no difference.

    Oh, and traps are only a distraction if you can disable them, and that is especially true on higher content. If you can’t disable, they stop being a sideline issue real quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    The advantage to multi-classing is whatever you want it to be. If you want more power, choose the more power options. If you want more survivability, choose the more survivability options. If you want a broader variety of skills then that's also an option. The core abilities in the class trees provide the option for mostly-pure and totally-pure builds to excel in different things. Make these worthwhile and people will start using them. You won't need to persuade anyone to try them.
    I am roundly told on this forum that pure classes suck, and everyone should multiclass. Therefore, pure classes do not excel in anything. Therefore, we need to nerf multi-classes to make them on par with pure builds.

    I 100% agree that multi-classing should give you variety. However, they should not dominate in the power aspect. That is the issue right there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    I won't go into this because it's been done to death repeatedly. The current novice-friendly character sheet can remain as the default and a UI option allows individual players to select the "Advanced Character Sheet" option with all of the numbers relevant. There is no conflict of interests between veterans and novices. Did you really just introduce a car analogy? Try an engineer telling an average driver that they need to change the oil but not telling them how to release the hood. Or even better, they designed the car with the hood that can't be opened.
    You assume that there needs to be a novice-friendly, and a vet-friendly sheet, which is a wholly false assumption. People learn as they go. You can give them LOTS of information, but it takes time for them to connect the dots on their own. Few people are going to come to this game knowing how to eek out specifics of a build to take advantages of certain abilities. All I’m trying to do is give them a pathway to make that happen. And the rest of you act like I just took a dump on the dining room table. If you eventually want to strangle the life out of this game, be my guest.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    Well said. The solution to this would be variety of builds capable of doing top content with same performance. First thing to do is make a team with specialized roles work better than 6x [insert build here].
    There are actually two "broad" possible solutions.
    1) You nerf content that would score a solid A++ on usefulness scale AND you nerf the content that was adapted for that level of content.
    or
    2) You buff existing content up to a level where it can compete with the new norm.

    The problems:
    1) You run the risk of a) nerfing to hard and invalidating whole build options entirely b) you don't nerf content hard enough and now nobody can do i c) you nerf content way to much and now everyone and anyone can beat the content without even trying.

    2) You run into the problem of unequal access to unequal amplifiers. Fancy talk for in DnD 1+1 doesn't equal 2. Damage != AC. Healing != Mitigation. To make up for that you either need to change a classes core ideology (Fighter capstone is that fighter gains Evasion while in armor and/or with a shield) or improve the stat stick until the capstone gives so much raw power that Fighter stops being DPS and starts being Burst. Fundamentally changing the character again.

    In the end the best thing to do is usually tackle the option that takes the least amount of time. However, it should be noted that option 2 is a vicious cycle. It will perpetuate itself. Option 1 is generally more work upfront though. So it really just depends on where your resources are and where you can afford to expend your effort.
    Last edited by Xianio; 12-10-2013 at 05:08 PM.

  17. #157
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    My “BS?”

    I probably played DnD when most of you people were still in your mother’s womb. However, while I liked the whole RPG fantasy thing, I didn’t wed myself to the game like some of you. I took on other interests, especially seeing that AD&D and D&D were games better suited to a social setting, and I had no access to that sort of environment. Oh, and I grew up and had a family.

    So DDO give me an outlet and a social experience in a fantasy game setting. I just happened to join this game over maybe WoW, mainly because the connection to D&D and the various mythos of the past that I found interesting.

    Likewise, when I started this game, I knew next to nothing about character building, gear, and all that sort of stuff. I learned as I went. That being said, contrasting pure and mixed-classes, if I had to learn multi-classing from the get-go to be included in groups and so on, I would have dumped the game long ago. And I don’t think I am atypical of the new player population.

    So , my “BS” comes from direct personal experience, and from professional experience with watching and utilizing end-user feedback for - I dunno – a couple of decades and then some.

    Your experience, however, comes from some high school notion that you are God’s gift to all RPGs because, well, you know how to multiclass…and stuff.

    Pffth.

    Plus, where have I said – anywhere – that multi-classing needs to go away? All I said is that it needs to be nerfed. And I am correct in my assessment.

    And yeah, I am racist against WF and BF. They need to know their place – mainly as bards and stable cleaners.
    yep you BS

    if you've played DnD as long as you claim then you'd know Multi Classing had long been a way to bring more to the table that staying pure.


    you think your God's Gift to DDO and you are here to slay Multi Class with your extreme prejudice warhammer of ghostbane

    news flash Multi Classing has long been superior to staying Pure in a more broad scope.

    DC casting is about the only place Pure has a serious advantage.

    No one said that anyone had to Multi Class but, experience players learn to evolve with the game not limit themselves to some predetermined path.

    if you want to play a Pure and be in God Mode maybe you should Play WoW or some other Cookie Cutter MMO where your forced to follow one path with very little options as you go.

  18. #158
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    This is one of those rare instances where I favor a buff over a nerf. 2 monk, 2 paladin, 2 rogue, 2 fighter, etc. should not be nerfed becuase then this game would stray too far from D&D in my opinion. The better resoloution is a buff to the capstones for most classes. Buffing is more difficult for devs then nerfing because what happens so often is a buff leads to everyone's build in essence getting nerfed because the devs went too far. Quite possibly every single class enhancement in DDO should recieve a level 20 buff.

    Currently, the overwhelming incentive is to splash classes. I have two pure class builds that I am actively playing out of 10 characters: 1 is a spellsinger bard and the other is a two weapon fighting rogue.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  19. #159
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    Well said. The solution to this would be variety of builds capable of doing top content with same performance. First thing to do is make a team with specialized roles work better than 6x [insert build here].
    The reason 6x [insert build here] does better than a team of specialized roles

    each individual is capable of handling them self they can split up and complete separate objectives without the handholding of needing a trapper/healer/crowd control/dps at every corner.

    Been doing many Heroic TR's in static 3 man groups for a long time and it works so much smoother when everyone can do fill many roles than when everyone only focuses on doing 1 thing.

    I do think Pure Builds need a buff at levels 18 and again at 20 to reward staying Pure.

  20. #160
    Community Member Scattaminkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So I hear that there is no reason to run a pure build because multi-classes are oh so powerful. Maybe too powerful. Ergo, for the sake of balance, I suggest that we nerf multi-class builds. I say, start with the monk and work your way down from there.
    Why don't you just say, "I don't like the way the system is currently working, so I suggest we change the game to adapt to they way I think it should be. The resultant action should make pure builds just as good as multiclass builds." Which, based off the rest of your post, is more accurate.

    From a player who has been playing and paying for a long time, know that any time a nerf has been done in MMOGs in general there has been no associated nerfing of quest difficulty until well after it has been done if it is ever done. Dare I say EE Gianthold revamp? To this end the content gets adapted to whichever voices speak loudest and this vocal minority is catered to.

    Instead of telling other people that their customization should conform to your ideal of fair play realize that you too benefit from the community expanding based off of some customization that other players choose to take advantage of. There is also nothing keeping you from doing the same.

    That being said, I see nothing wrong with the power of being a pure build wizard at the moment as one specific example. If you are having trouble building one that is competitive, look for build distributions that allow you to succeed.

    As for the MMOG specific content comment. There are sharks and there are fish in the MMOG world. Either eat and get bigger or get eaten. Spending time learning a MMOG rather than complaining about it in forums will enhance your enjoyment or allow you an opportunity to find something else you enjoy doing.

    Thank you for your continued attempt to adapt things to what makes you more comfortable, but the rest of us will continue to reek havoc upon your delicate sensibilities.

    Game on dear brothers and sisters.

    Thanks,

    Scat

    "If one must fall sorry but I warned you earlier in the sentence fragment."

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