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  1. #101
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    How about instead of nerfing turbine buffs capstones?
    Ive asked this question in 2 other threads. What does the fighter capstone have to look like to make multiclassing -vs- staying pure an actual debate rather than an abvious choice to multiclass?

    25% stacking double strike/shot and +1 crit multiplier on 19/20?

  2. #102
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider1963 View Post
    Simply make the pure barb capstone the heal spell (which works when raged), along with 1000sp and watch with amazement all the newly rolled barbs roaming the streets of stormreach.
    No thanks. I was embarrassed enough when my barb was running in off destinies and had a blue bar. Yuck.
    #MakeDDOGreatAgain

    You are the one choosing not to play alts.

    Casual player now investing way less than I used to into the game, playing 1-3 months at a time and still want nothing to do with Reaper. #improvepuggrouping#alldifficultiesmatter

  3. #103
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider1963 View Post
    Simply make the pure barb capstone the heal spell (which works when raged), along with 1000sp and watch with amazement all the newly rolled barbs roaming the streets of stormreach.
    Then watch all the wf barbs complain that their heal doesnt work as well as fleshies. And watch the fleshies complain that they should have heal as a class skill, and that they need an extra red slot on their esos to slot devotion without giving up superior acid augment. Then if they do get an extra red slot, they would complain that they need another red slot for devotion because now they have superior acid slotted twice etc etc.

  4. #104
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strider1963 View Post
    Simply make the pure barb capstone the heal spell (which works when raged), along with 1000sp and watch with amazement all the newly rolled barbs roaming the streets of stormreach.
    And to go with the other recent trend, Supreme Cleave will now hit other players when used in the Harbor...
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    A pure fighter, taking all of his levels in fighting, should not be outclassed in melee DPS by someone who split their fighter ranks with this, that, or the other.
    A fighter isn't designed to be the highest dps. They're designed to be the broadest generalist with the option to specialise if they choose to. That's why they have so many feats. So a multi-class build should definitely be able to out-dps them.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Likewise, a dedicated trapper should not be outclassed in trapping by a Pale Trapper (18 PM, 2 rogue).
    And what would this dedicated trapper bring to the party? If their trapper skills were so beyond the reach of anyone else then they would either (a) be ridiculously over-specced for any trap they come across (b) be required to do certain uber-level-traps introduced to cater to their uber-skills. Neither of these bring anything interesting to the game. Trapping is an interesting sideline that any class with a passable number of skill points and the relevant splash can bring to a party.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    The advantage to multiclassing should be flexibility, not moar powah! Pures should have a very narrow focus where they are highly powerful within that focus. Multiclasses should have more of a broader base.
    The advantage to multi-classing is whatever you want it to be. If you want more power, choose the more power options. If you want more survivability, choose the more survivability options. If you want a broader variety of skills then that's also an option. The core abilities in the class trees provide the option for mostly-pure and totally-pure builds to excel in different things. Make these worthwhile and people will start using them. You won't need to persuade anyone to try them.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    And while I agree with you on a more enhanced character sheet, again, all of these variables take time to learn. Again, you are formulating your opinions in the bubble of the veteran players who already know all of this stuff. It’s like the engineer of an engine trying to explain what each fuel level does to an average driver, when really the only thing they can pick up at first is when they need to get their oil changed.
    I won't go into this because it's been done to death repeatedly. The current novice-friendly character sheet can remain as the default and a UI option allows individual players to select the "Advanced Character Sheet" option with all of the numbers relevant. There is no conflict of interests between veterans and novices. Did you really just introduce a car analogy? Try an engineer telling an average driver that they need to change the oil but not telling them how to release the hood. Or even better, they designed the car with the hood that can't be opened.

  6. #106
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Warforged are fine. Bladeforged are at least something of an issue.
    Bladeforged have a double oppotunity cost, they are store only and require an LR to remove Pali levels, or can only be something with Pali levels.

    The solution of course is the same as Evasion... allow more builds to be self sufficient and have some access to the power, or have access to abilities of similar impact (Divine Grace for example is very on par with evasion in fact superior to it on a CHA based character). Give Bards access to a feat that mimics Divine Grace, "Charmed Life" or "larger than life". Give Barbs access to a feat that gives PRR "Inured to Punishment".

    Like to see Barb's in DDO get evasion at level 2 like Monks and Rogues do. This would open up splashes to non lawful classes (Bards) and immediately improve Barb's as well.

  7. #107
    Community Member deuxanes's Avatar
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    Dunno. PnP has some "restrictions" to multi-classing. But in PnP you generally have a DM and a small group of players and the DM can adapt accordingly. Besides the PnP restriction wouldn't really translate well to DDO. Maybe Turbine would be able to sell some more XP potions (or rather xp penalty removal potions) or race change tokens? ,)

    The best I can come up with would be maybe some "synergy penalties" for 12/6/2 builds (e.g. a negative level buff similar to using an aligned item of an alignment different from yours). Maybe some Paladin and Monk abilities would not work on multiclasses (e.g. Paladin -> Fallen Paladin on multiclassing). But that's some arbitrary decisions.
    Brace yourselves
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  8. #108
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Ive asked this question in 2 other threads. What does the fighter capstone have to look like to make multiclassing -vs- staying pure an actual debate rather than an abvious choice to multiclass?

    25% stacking double strike/shot and +1 crit multiplier on 19/20?
    I think that a stacking +1 flat critical multiplier on all critical hits might do it (not just 19/20) along with the current doublestrike might do it.
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  9. #109
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    How would you nerf multi-classing all around? Only way I can think of would be to double level requirement on enhancements, tier 2 = lvl 4, 3= lvl 6, 4 = lvl 8 and 5 = lvl 10. That would require deeper splashing and make some builds less viable, would probably break a few current builds, maybe too many! But if you go class by class review, it would be too much work for turbine due to low/no return on investment. They should probably take a look at some of the monk abilities (even if i splash monk on ¾ of my builds, i have to admit that it’s OP), but they won’t nerf monk since it’s one of their cash cows I suspect.

    Honestly, am rarely for “nerfing”, I would prefer they improve capstone and allow tier 5 enhancement for 2 trees on pure. One thing they could do for capstone is cut the requirements to 30 pts spent in tree (but still max one capstone), allowing a little more flexibility with points.

  10. #110
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    You meant Bladeforged right? Or did you really mean WF?
    WF.

    Because they are like Carnies...small hands...smell like cabbage...and machine oil....

  11. #111
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Bladeforged have a double oppotunity cost, they are store only and require an LR to remove Pali levels, or can only be something with Pali levels.
    They have a $ cost, but no actual opportunity cost compared to WF. They get everything that you would want as a WF and more. You don't have to give up anything on your character to get the Bladeforged power - you just have to give turbine some cash.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxanes View Post
    Dunno. PnP has some "restrictions" to multi-classing. But in PnP you generally have a DM and a small group of players and the DM can adapt accordingly. Besides the PnP restriction wouldn't really translate well to DDO. Maybe Turbine would be able to sell some more XP potions (or rather xp penalty removal potions) or race change tokens? ,)

    The best I can come up with would be maybe some "synergy penalties" for 12/6/2 builds (e.g. a negative level buff similar to using an aligned item of an alignment different from yours). Maybe some Paladin and Monk abilities would not work on multiclasses (e.g. Paladin -> Fallen Paladin on multiclassing). But that's some arbitrary decisions.

    Fortunately, people like you aren't developers for this game otherwise it would be pure garbage with such a rule.

    In the D+D ruleset that this game is based on, three way multiclassing is permitted. However it is supposed to carry an EXP penalty, where what it does is raise your effective level by 1 or 2 unless you have racial favored classes for multiclassing.

    Without favored classes, a 3 way multiclass would gain a -2 levelling penalty, meaning that to gain level 10 would require the same amount of XP as reaching level 12 and so on. More powerful races also have up to a -2 further penalty, so the most powerful character builds can put you back at -4 effective level, but this can still be outlevelled, you will still reach the same maximum level as other builds, but always be four levels behind.

  13. #113
    Community Member jortann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    New players are not going to walk in the door and just know multiclassing, and what classes have what advantages, from the get-go. All of that stuff takes time to learn. So, keeping a viable pure class is probably far more important to the game than all of the build complexities.

    I am 100% in agreement with what makes this game unique. I’m just saying that if you make it too focused on that specific niche, it may not survive.

    Ergo – we need to nerf multiclassing to save DDO.
    New players will not survive this game unless they are willing to take the time to learn it. And that means the first couple of characters they make will be failures - even if they make them pure.

    Secondly, there is nothing wrong with a pure character. What you are arguing is that multiclass characters are better, but that really does not matter, because the powercreep has spread to all classes and the game has become easier because of it. So, whether you are pure or multi-classed you should have no problem beating the quests.

    I think what this whole arguement is about is that when a pure character, even a well built pure character, stands next to a well built multi-class character he feels like his sword is a little shorter. Or maybe it is bigger and less dynamic. Does that make him bad? No... just different.

    Now if we are arguing that the pure class cant compete with multi-class that is just silly because there is no competition to win DDO.

    TLDR - The game is easy AND everyone can be a winner!
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  14. #114
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    This game is balanced well enough for new players, its called normal and casual difficulty.

    Stop complaining about that as though it should be made easier. Pure classes are fully capable up to EE, all classes and builds with just a little bit of thought are.

    D&D in general is not supposed to be easy to new players until you've read and understood the rules and everything about the classes. Its way more fun to dive into a game like this blindly, and learn as you go along.

    Having said that, my first character in DDO was a 2 fighter / 18 cleric battle cleric build. Took me less than 2 or 3 weeks to reach level 20, and I was healing shroud and anything else just fine, while also being able to solo things very effectively. I simply knew that if I made a cleric, people would party with me, and taking two fighter levels meant martial weapon proficiencies and two extra feats.

  15. #115
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    Didn't you take a level penalty when you multiclassed in PNP? That would be a pretty big disincentive.

  16. #116
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    Didn't you take a level penalty when you multiclassed in PNP? That would be a pretty big disincentive.
    You don't get a level penalty - you get an XP penalty in some versions under some conditions. But those conditions generally didn't happen and they don't apply to prestige classes.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    Didn't you take a level penalty when you multiclassed in PNP? That would be a pretty big disincentive.
    You do, but its not the same thing as negative levels. As I described above, its a penalty to the amount of XP you need to level up. Its not permanent and you can still outlevel the penalty and reach the same maximum level without a penalty, but you have to spend much longer levelling up.

  18. #118
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    Didn't you take a level penalty when you multiclassed in PNP? That would be a pretty big disincentive.
    The penalty was to XP gained.

    In 2e, and they tried it in 3e but did away with it. The penalty was that each class had to be within one level of eachother - unless it was the favored class of the race. Example: Elves favored wizard so you could have a 18 wizard/2rogue or 19 ranger/1wizard, but not an 18 rogue/2 fighter. PRC also did not count for the penalty. 4rogue, 3fighter, 1 shadowdancer was fine. The core classes were within one level of eachother.

    In 3.5 theres no cap on how many classes one could be either, like there was in 2e where 3 classes was the cap.

  19. #119
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You are not “dumbing down” anything.

    A pure fighter, taking all of his levels in fighting, should not be outclassed in melee DPS by someone who split their fighter ranks with this, that, or the other.

    Likewise, a dedicated trapper should not be outclassed in trapping by a Pale Trapper (18 PM, 2 rogue).

    The advantage to multiclassing should be flexibility, not moar powah! Pures should have a very narrow focus where they are highly powerful within that focus. Multiclasses should have more of a broader base.

    And while I agree with you on a more enhanced character sheet, again, all of these variables take time to learn. Again, you are formulating your opinions in the bubble of the veteran players who already know all of this stuff. It’s like the engineer of an engine trying to explain what each fuel level does to an average driver, when really the only thing they can pick up at first is when they need to get their oil changed.

    And no one should ever allow a Warforged to multiclass. They should either be Bladeforged paladins, or bards.

    I don't know about you, must not have played a lot of table top or not with a lot of creative players who knew how to build Multi classes characters.

    Multi Classing is one of the things that makes DDO not boring.

    Generally speaking, a reason to multiclass arises when the low-level class features of one base class outshine the later class features of another.

    Your racist again Warforged and Bladefordged and that's fine but there are 7 other races and 3 more Iconic you can choose to play.


    Stop thinking of Character Classes as a career path that one much follow.

    Think of it more like different experiences your Character has along the journey.

    I've played every class and I mix in the classes into my builds that give me the abilities I want my character to have.

    No one here buys your BS quishywizzy

    DDO is based loosely on DnD 3.5 and Multiclassing in 3.5 was what made 3.5 truly great.

    Break out of your Pure mind state and realize there is more to the game than being a one trick pony.

  20. #120
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    They have a $ cost, but no actual opportunity cost compared to WF. They get everything that you would want as a WF and more. You don't have to give up anything on your character to get the Bladeforged power - you just have to give turbine some cash.
    They either have Pali levels (which is an opportunity cost) or you pay to get out of them, those are both opportunity costs, there's no rule saying an opportunity cost has to be non cash Time is an opportunity cost, and we all know time is money, things that cost time in the game have an opportunity cost, cash based ways to circumvent that TIME are also an opportunity cost.

    Now lets stop talking about this I think I see Chai wandering over this way

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