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  1. #81
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jortann View Post
    Its too late to stop powercreep. We have creeped so far that the lower levels are trivial. And the backlash from going back is never good. Turbine wont do it. Even if it was the right thing to do.

    As for multi-classing... that is one of the best things about this game. Visit other games. Builds are stale and static - options are few. If you love the thousands upon thousands of options in building a character this is the place for you.
    And one of those options is to remain pure, and not multiclassed. That should not be discarded in favor of complexity.

    If this game end up being geared to the people who already play the game, you will get no new blood coming in through the doors, and the game itself will die. New players are not going to walk in the door and just know multiclassing, and what classes have what advantages, from the get-go. All of that stuff takes time to learn. So, keeping a viable pure class is probably far more important to the game than all of the build complexities.

    I am 100% in agreement with what makes this game unique. I’m just saying that if you make it too focused on that specific niche, it may not survive.

    Ergo – we need to nerf multiclassing to save DDO.

  2. #82
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Buffing pure will lead to powercreep. Thus, nerfing multiclass is really the only solution.
    Take monk out of the equation (regarding melees at least). name one broken combo?

    You can't can you?

    The problem isn't multiclassing, it's monks.

  3. #83
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    NO.

    Time to revisit the benefits of staying pure.

  4. #84
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Take monk out of the equation (regarding melees at least). name one broken combo?

    You can't can you?

    The problem isn't multiclassing, it's monks.
    ...and Warforged...

  5. #85
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    NO.

    Time to revisit the benefits of staying pure.
    Yes.

    Netf multiclassing.

    And HJEAL MEH!!!

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    If this game end up being geared to the people who already play the game, you will get no new blood coming in through the doors, and the game itself will die. New players are not going to walk in the door and just know multiclassing, and what classes have what advantages, from the get-go. All of that stuff takes time to learn. So, keeping a viable pure class is probably far more important to the game than all of the build complexities.
    This is a complete nonsense.

    We should celebrate the fact that you can increase the complexity of your build to maximise any aspect of the game that you enjoy.

    If you dumb down the options to suit new players, then they get on the learning curve and realise there is nowhere to go. They lose interest and go elsewhere, meanwhile the veterans just get bored that you've totally wrecked their game.

    We have a level of complexity as it is. What we need is a complete overhaul of the character sheet to spell out all of the aspects that we have to guess at. What's my spell critical multiplier? How rate do my HP, Turns or LOH regenerate? What's my doubleshot chance? Why can't I mouse over any number and get a pop-up list detailing every feat/enhancement/item that contributes to it?

    Improve the character sheet 100% and celebrate the complexity.

  7. #87
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Take monk out of the equation (regarding melees at least). name one broken combo?

    You can't can you?

    The problem isn't multiclassing, it's monks.
    Anything Bard.

  8. #88
    Community Member Raoull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    More I think about it the problem isn't multiclassing, it's monks.

    Just nerf monks.
    Eh.... They are definitely the biggest gorilla in the room with the multiclass issue, but I don't think the multiclass issue is as big of an issue as Furyshot.

    Nerf Furyshot, and monks, and I'm all for it.

    (Disclaimer: I love monks, I play monks... I'll keep playing monks after they get nerfed.)

    I think the 2 biggest monk issues regards to Multiclassing are stances as selectable feats (so splashs can get Earth 3) and Shadowfade. Ditch the first completely and move shadowfade up the tree.

    Although something should still be done to help armor compared to PJs.... add 10 to the dodge cap of all armor might suffice.
    And then maybe something to make QP a tad less godlike....
    Cannith Server :Vice Sovereign of The Guild of Calamitous Intent

    Kalener (Monk) Renelak (backup band) Raoull (Mr. McStabby) Kaleray (laser heals) Kalrah (xbow rogue)

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The problem isn't multiclassing, it's monks.
    So you keep saying. Change the record. Nobody's listening to this one.

  10. #90
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Take monk out of the equation (regarding melees at least). name one broken combo?

    You can't can you?

    The problem isn't multiclassing, it's monks.
    Barbarian 16/Clr 4.

    It can do some self healing. Everyone knows that Barbarians are supposed to be giant mana sponges who need someone to kiss their boo-boos. Barbarians who self-heal are an abomination who must be stopped.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  11. #91
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    ...and Warforged...
    Warforged are fine. Bladeforged are at least something of an issue.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  12. #92
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    This is a complete nonsense.

    We should celebrate the fact that you can increase the complexity of your build to maximise any aspect of the game that you enjoy.

    If you dumb down the options to suit new players, then they get on the learning curve and realise there is nowhere to go. They lose interest and go elsewhere, meanwhile the veterans just get bored that you've totally wrecked their game.

    We have a level of complexity as it is. What we need is a complete overhaul of the character sheet to spell out all of the aspects that we have to guess at. What's my spell critical multiplier? How rate do my HP, Turns or LOH regenerate? What's my doubleshot chance? Why can't I mouse over any number and get a pop-up list detailing every feat/enhancement/item that contributes to it?

    Improve the character sheet 100% and celebrate the complexity.
    You are not “dumbing down” anything.

    A pure fighter, taking all of his levels in fighting, should not be outclassed in melee DPS by someone who split their fighter ranks with this, that, or the other.

    Likewise, a dedicated trapper should not be outclassed in trapping by a Pale Trapper (18 PM, 2 rogue).

    The advantage to multiclassing should be flexibility, not moar powah! Pures should have a very narrow focus where they are highly powerful within that focus. Multiclasses should have more of a broader base.

    And while I agree with you on a more enhanced character sheet, again, all of these variables take time to learn. Again, you are formulating your opinions in the bubble of the veteran players who already know all of this stuff. It’s like the engineer of an engine trying to explain what each fuel level does to an average driver, when really the only thing they can pick up at first is when they need to get their oil changed.

    And no one should ever allow a Warforged to multiclass. They should either be Bladeforged paladins, or bards.

  13. #93
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    How about instead of nerfing turbine buffs capstones?

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    So... powercreep good? Because that's also what you're advocating.

    I mean sure, you could do that but then you get into a super fun cycle where monsters must become stronger to cope with every build having "9000 damage" "evasion" "70+ in all saves" etc etc.

    Alternatively you could address powercreep, weaken the 'clear' winners and buff up capstones a little. You'd see a nicer spread of builds across the game and you'd be able to make high level content a little more inclusive.
    Ahh the Boogieman of Powercreep. Almost as annoying as the Balance Bodack.

    A) as long as there is math Powercreep is not actually anything more than a elementary problem of increments and how fast you want to increment. Speaking as a DM of over 30 years (since the 1979 blue box with The Keep on the Borderlands) I've dealt with powercreep in so many ways that were generally trivial and obvious to do, that is doesn't even merit being on my radar of things to overly concern myself with.

    B) no where NEAR as many things increase the maximum available power as people believe, and most of the things that do increment it, do so INTENTIONALLY and BY DESIGN (level cap, ED's, enhancement pass, New Loot, and the need for increasingly powerful named items)

    And finally: there is no powercreep (aka raising the bar) inherent in improving the SUB PAR to be closer to PAR. The only way that buffing Bards or giving Barb's Evasion, substantially raises the bar is if they surpass the current bar instead of just closing the delta between their current relative power and the current relative power of the most powerful classes and builds.

    Lets say we could quantify the delta in relative power as an "index" of power. If Monk/Kensei, Furyshot, and Shiradi spammer are the current bar, and they are at "9000" relative power "index". And the worst Build/Classes possible in DDO are at "2000", the Bar is set at "9000" improving Barb's survivability and giving them a sensible healing option (say lower the Silver flame pot penalties and remove the speed penalty) to be a little more comparable to a 12/8 Monk/Kensei, increasing the Barb to "8000" does not put him *cough* above 9000... and power has not been incremented AT ALL.

    Power creep is a relative standard, not an aggregate number. And whats more the creep you guys so often seem to worry about has been UTTERLY BLOWN AWAY in magnitude by even the most basic Random loot Ghostbaning. The Epass, ER additions (more fate points) all of these raised the bar and are continuing to raise the bar as we use those systems, and find new ways to make increasingly invincible characters. Making a Bard a little more offensively spell empowered, bringing Pali's out of the stone ages of "12 single shot smites of a insignificant damage" that they have to pay way too many AP's for (SERIOUSLY? Teir 1 max smites "+1 and +2" and THEN tier 2 for +3 and +4? LOLWUT?!? Who would ever take those if the Pali tree wasn't so terribad that you HAVE to take them to get past the "blech" to reach the "meh"?) Compared to all the one shot unlimited use single attacks every other class tree gets? That's totally trifling and outdated. * AND/OR Letting Barb's catch up to Self healing horses that have fled the barn long ago... none of these things raises a relative standard. They do not raise the bar, or creep power, they let underpowered options catch up a little bit to where the BAR IS AT.

    * You would think these Smites are something amazing as opposed to what they are: outdated and woefully inadequate attacks that wont make most players Hot Bars over Cleave/Improved cleave/Lay waste/Momentum Swing/Intolerant blows/Tacticals/others. You could remove the limited uses entirely and double the effects of exulted smite and it would still only merit putting them on my hotbar rotation in the least used part of the bar instead of "reed in the wind" from my Fighter/feat splash. or "Divine Sacrifice" etc.
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-10-2013 at 12:22 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  15. #95
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    So you keep saying. Change the record. Nobody's listening to this one.
    Smart people will eventually catch up with my genius. The lesser players out there might not but ah well, they can still be useful if they hjeal meh.

  16. #96
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    How about instead of nerfing turbine buffs capstones?
    How crazy does a capstone need to be to make up for NOT have 8 monk/ranger/pally levels?

  17. #97
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    ...and Warforged...
    You meant Bladeforged right? Or did you really mean WF?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  18. #98
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    NO.

    Time to revisit the benefits of staying pure.
    none, nada, suckage. 18 2 will forever be supreme. And subsequently now its more like a 12 6 2. But still even without that 18/2 all the way.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  19. #99
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Furyshot
    Monk stances as selectable feats
    Earth stance is too strong

    Capstones need to be as strong as
    - two feats + evasion
    - traps, umd + evasion
    - one feat, haste boost, extra action boost, divine might

    If they aren't, the decision to multiclass isn't much of a decision (for a melee).
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Barbarian 16/Clr 4.

    It can do some self healing. Everyone knows that Barbarians are supposed to be giant mana sponges who need someone to kiss their boo-boos. Barbarians who self-heal are an abomination who must be stopped.
    Simply make the pure barb capstone the heal spell (which works when raged), along with 1000sp and watch with amazement all the newly rolled barbs roaming the streets of stormreach.

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