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  1. #61
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    Its better to think that multiclass builds are sufficiently powered for end game epic content, whereas single class builds are underpowered.

    The correct solution would be to buff pure class builds, rather than nerfing multiclasses.

  2. #62
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    Nerfing Bad
    Buffing good
    So... powercreep good? Because that's also what you're advocating.

    I mean sure, you could do that but then you get into a super fun cycle where monsters must become stronger to cope with every build having "9000 damage" "evasion" "70+ in all saves" etc etc.

    Alternatively you could address powercreep, weaken the 'clear' winners and buff up capstones a little. You'd see a nicer spread of builds across the game and you'd be able to make high level content a little more inclusive.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    when its gotten to the point that the preferred build to play in epics are multi classed builds more than pure because the game has changed to the point that make some pure builds fall behind in important areas, than attention should be made to improve and not nerf. we all love to make our own build choices, but as the game changes so don't the builds. balance is not one of Turbines strong points.
    Balance is not one of D&D's strong points. NON BALANCE on the other hand might be it's greatest strength.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    Nah its time to create a ddo version that runs u13 and will never get epic lvs.
    This...MoTU was cool but my best memories and IMO the game's peak was when the cap was 20. Huge endgame raiding scene, fairly balanced game (aside from DC casting being OP), bigger population. Ahh...those were the days.

  5. #65
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    In DnD "balance" isn't done by the game, it's done by the DM. Yes, monk/paladin x/y/z have always been powerful combos. However, your average DM would just block such a path or not give you the opportunity to cheese out ie: You'd be super broke ALL THE TIME because you'd actually have to pay X amount of your loot away because Paladin oath + monk oath. Or the monsters you'd face would suddenly have lots of magic missiles instead of fireballs.

    DnD didn't need to balance itself. The introduction of the DM role saw to it. That's why DnD can focus on "OOOH cool!" with only minor regard for balancing the systems.

    Video games don't have a DM. You can cheese out any build combo and since 10,000 people are a LOT harder to balance a campaign around than 5 dudes in a basement, actual game balance needs to be considered.

    It's why DnD ALWAYS makes for imperfect video games. It "seems" like it should be perfect but in the end the level of polish needed to work in a large-scale game environment just isn't there. Point and case: Find a DnD game where PvP works (like, out of the box works)

  6. #66
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    I would agree if someone were to say that multi-classing is OP now. The capstones for the majority of classes are underpowered and the risks of multiclassing now are minimal. There are too many builds running around with 2/3 class combinations that are more powerful than the majority of pure classes out there. In particular, one class combination I HATE is the monkcher; it puts rangers to shame with what they can too, which is too much. It's a disgrace to the D&D world for this to happen. Multi-classing must be nerfed at once! Too many abilities are compatible with one another!
    Here's a riddle for you: What do you call people who play the game for only a day and apparently know everything?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    So... powercreep good? Because that's also what you're advocating.

    I mean sure, you could do that but then you get into a super fun cycle where monsters must become stronger to cope with every build having "9000 damage" "evasion" "70+ in all saves" etc etc.

    Alternatively you could address powercreep, weaken the 'clear' winners and buff up capstones a little. You'd see a nicer spread of builds across the game and you'd be able to make high level content a little more inclusive.
    I don't believe you've played epics based off what you've said..
    1) We actually have - and need - 70 in saves. (well.. not need, just want.)
    2) 9000 damage? People have hit 21k.
    3) Evasion is only needed because of bad spell mechanics - or turbine decided to spam it. Moar no save!

    Never ask turbine to nerf. I'd rather suffer power creep than let Turbine nerf things, they go too far.
    Multis would still be used anyway, because evasion is needed, high saves are needed, hjealz/survivability is needed... and most pures don't offer that.

    The solution would be buffing pures and changing enemies to be more "fair" for that purpose, though I don't trust turbine to do that either..

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Balance is not one of D&D's strong points. NON BALANCE on the other hand might be it's greatest strength.
    While true I gotta admit: I do far prefer to see multiple ways to skin a cat with associated side effects, than multiplied ways to sharpen the knife.

    Not that that's a new argument either, of course.

    (And I say this as someone without a single pure in their stable at present.)
    Last edited by Scraap; 12-09-2013 at 10:03 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    So... powercreep good? Because that's also what you're advocating.

    I mean sure, you could do that but then you get into a super fun cycle where monsters must become stronger to cope with every build having "9000 damage" "evasion" "70+ in all saves" etc etc.

    Alternatively you could address powercreep, weaken the 'clear' winners and buff up capstones a little. You'd see a nicer spread of builds across the game and you'd be able to make high level content a little more inclusive.
    As long as quests keep getting harder, players need power creep to keep up with the increased difficulty. Its obvious that as level caps increase, so does power creep, and in D+D, epic levels are supposed to make your characters, well, epic!

  10. #70
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    I don't believe you've played epics based off what you've said..
    1) We actually have - and need - 70 in saves. (well.. not need, just want.)
    2) 9000 damage? People have hit 21k.
    3) Evasion is only needed because of bad spell mechanics - or turbine decided to spam it. Moar no save!
    I haven't but you're actually kinda proving my point - PS: I know that they have hit these numbers. Cetus' build is the easy example;
    1) I'm talking about powercreep. That's kinda my point :P
    2) This was a Dragonball Z "Over 9000!" reference. Yeah, I busted out the old stuff
    3) Again, kinda my point :P

    Am I saying Turbine should do it? Sure. Powercreep is always bad for game health. It just ends up invalidating gear/older raids/high level content and ultimately creates far more work than it fixes. It's classic procrastination. You push off fixing the real issue so powercreeps up until you have to go in and redo EVERYTHING because X/Y/Z combos are the only things that work.

    The larger point is that you can't deal with powercreep by buffing more stuff OR by just dealing with 1 element (like Toons). If you want to fix powercreep it needs to be holistic. Monster damage numbers need to drop and "kitchen sink" combos need to be toned down. Capstones will still be subpar, so you could actually buff them ... still.

  11. #71
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    DDO is better off with the balance favoring multiclass then pure class, multiclassing is DDO's niche.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So I hear that there is no reason to run a pure build because multi-classes are oh so powerful. Maybe too powerful. Ergo, for the sake of balance, I suggest that we nerf multi-class builds. I say, start with the monk and work your way down from there.

    I mean, the new enhancement system has created a disproportionate group of multiclass builds that needs fixing. After all, if new players can't make their pure builds as powerful as the multiclassed ones, then they'll leave the game. It'll be like Ghostbane all over again, and we can't have that now, can we?

    At the very least, do it for the children.

    Oh wait...is this one of those Fight Club rules thingies again?
    Once upon a time, capstones were worth having. Compared to many of the other enhancements (and especially compared to EDs), Capstones aren't all that impressive.

    Letting pure class characters take tier 5 enhancements from 2 different PREs or beefing up the capstones would take care of this problem and make the multiclass/pure class choice a lot more interesting.
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  13. #73
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    Default Glory Days!

    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    This...MoTU was cool but my best memories and IMO the game's peak was when the cap was 20. Huge endgame raiding scene, fairly balanced game (aside from DC casting being OP), bigger population. Ahh...those were the days.
    Those were the days! Back when Epics were EPIC. There was no normal or hard setting. You had to build an awesome character and gear him out just to survive. And there was not a lot of people running around soloing them. You had to team up and work together.

    It was the glory years.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    DDO is better off with the balance favoring multiclass then pure class, multiclassing is DDO's niche.
    I have to agree with this. Multi classing, and the good or gimp that goes with it, a shining point for me. I like the ability to play with builds.

    That said,..my main is a Pure Cleric, since I am always grouped with him. But my side 'fun' character is a Barb/ fighter.

    I have no qualms about beefing up capstones though,..I feel there should be some benefit to staying pure as well. As long as the content does not rigidly enforce certain builds 'too much'. And since dungeons are heavily instanced here,..I see no reason why they can't be tailored to such.

  15. #75
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    More I think about it the problem isn't multiclassing, it's monks.

    Just nerf monks.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Balance is not one of D&D's strong points. NON BALANCE on the other hand might be it's greatest strength.
    True.

    However, what Turbine did was take that nonbalance, and add arbitrary damage multipliers. Then balanced the EE game based on folks taking full advantage of those arbitrary damage multipliers. This serves to inflate what already not balanced into an obvious hierarchy of useful > not useful abilities, and the builds with the most useful abilities with arbitrarily multiplied damage capability become the most desired.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    More I think about it the problem isn't multiclassing, it's monks.

    Just nerf monks.
    And Warforged.

    In fact, if you have a WF monk, it should be triple-nerfed, just for good measure.

  18. #78
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    I'm being told that there is way too much power in multi-classing, and that pure is gimp.

    Buffing pure will lead to powercreep. Thus, nerfing multiclass is really the only solution.

  19. #79
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    Its too late to stop powercreep. We have creeped so far that the lower levels are trivial. And the backlash from going back is never good. Turbine wont do it. Even if it was the right thing to do.

    As for multi-classing... that is one of the best things about this game. Visit other games. Builds are stale and static - options are few. If you love the thousands upon thousands of options in building a character this is the place for you.

    As for balance .... this game has never been balanced. I am not sure balance is a good thing.


    The problem with the game is when it changes usually someone gets the shaft or at least you feel like you do. For example.... I used to have a wizard who was the insta kill king... but sadly he got nerfed. He got rebuilt as a shiradi wizard so he could run EEs but it was never quite the same.... he spends most of his time in the crafting hall nowadays, telling stories about the Glory Days.

    Another toon had worked for months putting togither a great gear setup.... only to have his gear trivalized with a couple of updates.

    The rate at which this game is changing is crazy. If you take 3 months off you will come back to find your toons undergeared and gimpified. At some point they need to stop messing with the mechanics and just add awesome content.
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I'm being told that there is way too much power in multi-classing, and that pure is gimp.

    Buffing pure will lead to powercreep. Thus, nerfing multiclass is really the only solution.
    Moving some of the front loaded abilities to higher levels, or have them scale, would resolve it.

    For example, divine grace adds your cha mod to all saves, requires 2 pally levels. If they changed this to being capped by paladin level, it would give people a reason to stay pure pally and would give people a reason to not splash 2 levels of it.

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