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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    I disagree completely. People should not be rewarded for a lack of character building. I'd remove capstones altogether to dispel the illusion that single classing is a good idea.
    As great as that is - it's balls to the walls stupid for health of the game. New players are equally important as vets to Turbines doors staying open. By gating your content so that new players will be highly unlikely to engage with a significant portion of the game you lose revenue.

    This isn't a job. It's not important. You want to be "better" because you multi-class, well you still will be. You just won't be "so much better" that only you are allowed to play EE stormhills or whatever.

    You don't get any extra points for making your games burden of knowledge so high that new people can't play. That's how you bankrupt your company.

    PS: Being made "good enough" to be viable, isn't a reward. It's the baseline of a gaming experience. It's just stupid business to do anything but.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Please, a trained chimp could make a good multiclass toon in DDO. That same chimp might be able to play epic hard without a hireling.
    And I forgot, you cant even solo EN with a melee so what gives you any right to pretend to be better than anyone else here?
    All my posts are trolled by autocorrect and the edit button not working on smartphone browsers. That's also why I make multiple posts in a row instead of editing.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    90% of players in this game cant even beat EN without a hireling.

    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    And I forgot, you cant even solo EN with a melee
    I'm confused here. Are you saying that Teh Troll (esq) speaks for 90% of the players in the game, or are you saying that you exemplify 90% of the player base who can't do simple quests without hirelings?

  4. #244
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    I don't care anymore. Whatever. Make barbs self healing machines that can easy button EE plz.
    I give up.

  5. #245
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    90% of players in this game cant even beat EN without a hireling. Its one thing to build a character, its another thing to know how to use it.

    And hirelings are great, free DVs is nothing to complain about, especially in long quests with only a single shrine.
    Oh come on . . . I'd take that wager. I'd wager that more than 90% of the players can solo most EN quests without a hireling.

    And yes, the DV bot is awesome. can't deny that.

  6. #246
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    Default A bit OT, but I can't help it...

    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Its one thing to build a character, its another thing to know how to use it.
    That statement is exactly why I cringe everytime I see a "Can someone direct me to build for X?" thread/post. Following the directions on how to build a Sorc, Assassin, Monkcher, Juggy or whatever else does not impart the knowledge of how to use/play the thing you just put together.

    Cracks me up everytime one of my odd "Past Life" builds (ie 1Arti/9Ranger/10Bard) gets denied for an LFM, then they take a more standard build played by a name I recognize as one of "those" players...
    I would still like to see... Something that tests character versatility and player adaptability rather than character focus strength and quest knowledge.
    I play the quests for the content of the quests not just as an XP/min merry-go-round.
    Actual play experience is worth infinitely more than theorycrafting...

  7. #247
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    As great as that is - it's balls to the walls stupid for health of the game. New players are equally important as vets to Turbines doors staying open. By gating your content so that new players will be highly unlikely to engage with a significant portion of the game you lose revenue.

    This isn't a job. It's not important. You want to be "better" because you multi-class, well you still will be. You just won't be "so much better" that only you are allowed to play EE stormhills or whatever.

    You don't get any extra points for making your games burden of knowledge so high that new people can't play. That's how you bankrupt your company.

    PS: Being made "good enough" to be viable, isn't a reward. It's the baseline of a gaming experience. It's just stupid business to do anything but.
    The thing that keeps players playing ddo in the options and complexity of building characters over the cookie cutter characters of other games. (at least in the groups I run in)

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    The thing that keeps players playing ddo in the options and complexity of building characters over the cookie cutter characters of other games. (at least in the groups I run in)
    Don't be silly. All those choices should result in the exact same power level amongst every player.

  9. #249
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    Don't be silly. All those choices should result in the exact same power level amongst every player.
    because, that's fun no matter what options you choose you end up exactly the same as the next guy.

    we would have builds like

    the 19 Fighter 1 Rogue DC caster

    the 2 Cleric 3 Favored Soul 15 Bard Trapper

    and for the pures

    the 20 Fighter Assassin

    the 20 Monk S&B tank

    no matter what options you choose you end up exactly the same as everyone else

    don't forget the 20 levels of soul stone build
    Last edited by Tanngiostr; 12-14-2013 at 09:27 PM.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    because, that's fun no matter what options you choose you end up exactly the same as the next guy.

    we would have builds like

    the 19 Fighter 1 Rogue DC caster

    the 2 Cleric 3 Favored Soul 15 Bard Trapper

    and for the pures

    the 20 Fighter Assassin

    the 20 Monk S&B tank

    no matter what options you choose you end up exactly the same as everyone else
    And they can all solo EE. because THAT is how you make a team game.

  11. #251
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    Absolutely that's what keeps players playing

    What gets players to stick around in the first place is being able to play the game without having to spend a week researching

    But! DrakHur, Tanngiostr and a scarecrow were busy, heads down standing in a circle and I interrupted. Pardon me.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Absolutely that's what keeps players playing

    What gets players to stick around in the first place is being able to play the game without having to spend a week researching

    But! DrakHur, Tanngiostr and a scarecrow were busy, heads down standing in a circle and I interrupted. Pardon me.
    Oh please. You think the game is unplayable on pure builds? When? At heroic levels? there's plenty of time to make silly and not great builds for new players. Oh man, my first try character coudn't do epic elite! Guess what? neither could mine when I started playing (true, the difficulty didn't exist, but at higher level quests even elite was iffy).

    You're overstating a problem, but really, whatever. There's no middle ground. Either multiclassing and powerbuilding has an impact or it doesn't.

    Either I can put no thought into anything and be "functional" as you put it, or I have to try. If I don't have to try, why would I bother doing so? You're right, I don't think new players should be in EE. Otherwise there's nothing epic elite about it.

  13. #253
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    The scarecrows, they're everywhere!

    Quick tip for you mate; don't try and explain to me what I'm thinking, just respond to what I wrote. It's quite silly, seeing how we don't know each other.

    What I wrote was the power differences should still exist between those who know what they're doing verse those who don't. A pure build or a multi-class build isn't implied in that sentence. Knowing how to work with a pure build is often substantially more difficult than a multi-class build as your "power" is extremely focused, resulting in a very high burden of knowledge surrounding gear to know if you'd still be capable of surviving despite the significant weaknesses that focus comes with.

    The difference is, that understanding the "basics" of a pure build is much easier. One shouldn't be forced to learn either 1) how to gear/work the game systems effectively to make pure builds potentially viable 2) Multi-class builds shouldn't be 100% better than well made and planned pure builds.

    Which class you pick isn't indicative of some greater intelligence. It's just a different set of skills that take approximately as long to read as the first set of skills did.

    However, there is no reason to be an elitist about "pure" or "multiclass" builds. There just isn't. One should be highly focused while the other should be have less power in that one specific area for more power in 1 or 2 other areas. Most often multi-class will STILL be better because "generalists" are better at solo'ing or unorganized groups but that doesn't mean that you should gimp an entire archetype needlessly.


    Lets put it this way: You say the game is best because of the depth of content ie: the character building. Yet, you want fewer options than I do. You want less depth than I do. Your stated thesis isn't supported by your arguments. It seems to me that you don't actually favour options, you favour complexity. These are not the same things, and it's why you're an elitist.

    This is a video game. Game being the operative word.

    edit: And that would be fine too if it were held true through to epic content. 100% reasonable expectation.
    |
    V
    Last edited by Xianio; 12-15-2013 at 12:01 AM.

  14. #254
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    My take on multiclass/pure is that a lot of multiclasses are excellent when you get them to a certain level, but can be a pain before that. While pures are usually steady but mediocre unless you ahve a good idea on how to make them work.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  15. #255
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    As great as that is - it's balls to the walls stupid for health of the game. New players are equally important as vets to Turbines doors staying open. By gating your content so that new players will be highly unlikely to engage with a significant portion of the game you lose revenue.

    This isn't a job. It's not important. You want to be "better" because you multi-class, well you still will be. You just won't be "so much better" that only you are allowed to play EE stormhills or whatever.

    You don't get any extra points for making your games burden of knowledge so high that new people can't play. That's how you bankrupt your company.

    PS: Being made "good enough" to be viable, isn't a reward. It's the baseline of a gaming experience. It's just stupid business to do anything but.
    This isn't an issue because this game has difficulty settings for all experience levels and skill levels. New players can engage the entire game in all level ranges.

  16. #256
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This isn't an issue because this game has difficulty settings for all experience levels and skill levels. New players can engage the entire game in all level ranges.
    yep all the nerfers want to play EE on their no thought involved builds on their first life and first time in the quest.

    any build that involves planning should be nerfed

  17. #257
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    Fair enough. I concede that point to Chai - makes sense. I still stand by the following ones though.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xianio View Post
    Fair enough. I concede that point to Chai - makes sense. I still stand by the following ones though.
    But that's the same thing as I said, I was talking about EE. I don't see pure builds having difficulty in EH. Anyhow, I used to agree (and still do, really) that capstones should be better, etc. I stopped supporting it when I saw people equating "functional" with "epic elite ready". Being epic elite ready should have more to do with building, and less to do with gearing and ED silliness... which is what I see a lot of now. My choices are actually made much less relevent since most of my power comes from EDs. And EDs take no planning, no building, nothing. It's blatantly obvious with even ten minutes of reading them over (a reasonable expectation in any MMO) where the power lies. And I'm not even talking about furyshot. Comapre Dreadnaught and Fury to, say, Unyielding Sentinel. The differences are tremendous. Heck, I'd take a pure build in fury or dreadnaught over a monkcher in unyielding sentinel (or, god forbid, grinding in one of arcane destinies). I used Unyielding because it's MEANT to be a melee destiny, and it's just horrendous.

    Got a bit sidetracked there. At the end of the day, I still agree with pure builds being made stronger via capstones.

    Except barbarians - they should just be deleted from the game. But that's a personal thing -the only way I can see to fix them basically makes them not barbarians anymore. You can't take Aristocrat, Expert, or the Complete Warrior Samurai in this game either... and in a DDO environment Barbarians are basically as worthless.

  19. #259
    Community Member Rhysem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    any build that involves planning should be nerfed
    Clue is broken, nerf clue*!

    *: No, I don't mean a particular player who goes by that handle.

  20. #260
    Community Member deuxanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So I hear that there is no reason to run a pure build because multi-classes are oh so powerful. Maybe too powerful. Ergo, for the sake of balance, I suggest that we nerf multi-class builds. I say, start with the monk and work your way down from there.

    I mean, the new enhancement system has created a disproportionate group of multiclass builds that needs fixing. After all, if new players can't make their pure builds as powerful as the multiclassed ones, then they'll leave the game. It'll be like Ghostbane all over again, and we can't have that now, can we?

    At the very least, do it for the children.

    Oh wait...is this one of those Fight Club rules thingies again?

    Multi-classing as it is encountered in DDO had always favoured melee builds. With the "new" enhancement system some caster builds have been taken care of so that you don't need to splash in some levels of fighter anymore (e.g. eldritch knight, warchanter). And then you have half-elves and their dilletante feats twhich grant some little goodies. You can now train an elf as arcane archer without splashing in some levels as an arcane caster class.

    A fighter has some benefits to stay pure besides the capstone. It's mainly because of all the bonus feats you'll get and which will allow you to train some additional combat skills. I tend to switch weapons (e.g. weapon & shield, two-handed weapon or bow) regarding the situation at hand. The feat starved melee builds have more reasons to splash in levels of other classes. Mainly for free feats and access to certain enhancements.

    I guess some restrictions on paladins (i.e. multi-classed paladin -> fallen paladins) and monks (e.g. move free feats a few levels up) and a change to evasion (it's silly that rogues and monks get this on level 2) might help a bit. And rangers should have to choose between two-weapon fighting feats and ranged combat feats and not get both by default.
    Last edited by deuxanes; 12-15-2013 at 11:47 AM.
    Brace yourselves
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