Page 1 of 14 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 266
  1. #1
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,822

    Default Time to nerf multi-classing.

    So I hear that there is no reason to run a pure build because multi-classes are oh so powerful. Maybe too powerful. Ergo, for the sake of balance, I suggest that we nerf multi-class builds. I say, start with the monk and work your way down from there.

    I mean, the new enhancement system has created a disproportionate group of multiclass builds that needs fixing. After all, if new players can't make their pure builds as powerful as the multiclassed ones, then they'll leave the game. It'll be like Ghostbane all over again, and we can't have that now, can we?

    At the very least, do it for the children.

    Oh wait...is this one of those Fight Club rules thingies again?

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    /signed.

    If for no other reason I am a troll who lives on the misery of others.

  3. #3
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Staffs, England
    Posts
    9,248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I say, start with the monk and work your way down from there.
    Yeah...Good luck with that!

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    913

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So I hear that there is no reason to run a pure build because multi-classes are oh so powerful. Maybe too powerful. Ergo, for the sake of balance, I suggest that we nerf multi-class builds. I say, start with the monk and work your way down from there.

    I mean, the new enhancement system has created a disproportionate group of multiclass builds that needs fixing. After all, if new players can't make their pure builds as powerful as the multiclassed ones, then they'll leave the game. It'll be like Ghostbane all over again, and we can't have that now, can we?

    At the very least, do it for the children.

    Oh wait...is this one of those Fight Club rules thingies again?
    Pure's have not been popular since I've played, which granted was 2008, not 2006. Still, at no point have pure classes been loved except on casters, or for very specific capstones with very specific builds on occassion. From exploiter ranger, to monster, to blender, to even the old 18/2 tanks (Paladin/fighter), to clonks, drunks...

    And yes, I'm aware this was a troll post, but there's an abnormal amount of stupid on the forums today. Or maybe it's because I got less than an hour of sleep last night.

  5. #5
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    Pure's have not been popular since I've played, which granted was 2008, not 2006. Still, at no point have pure classes been loved except on casters, or for very specific capstones with very specific builds on occassion. From exploiter ranger, to monster, to blender, to even the old 18/2 tanks (Paladin/fighter), to clonks, drunks...
    Come on though, the capstones for a long time were strong enough that it was at least worth considering.

    And it's not just the capstone. I played both the "Monster" 12/6/2 and an 18/2 Kensai fighter and was a very tough call as to which was stronger. Now . . . not even close, fighter completely peeks ate 12 and there's NO POINT in taking more that 12 levels. That 10% capstone was worth it over an "evasion" that rarely made the save anyway . . . then Turbine in their infinite wisdom come up with a raid with outrageous spell-damage that require pall-splashed saves to beat . . .

    So it's not just the capstones . . . it's the highly front-loaded classes with monk, fighter, and ranger all be incredibly strong in the first 3-8 levels. Some of the love in the ENH pass should have been more back-loaded, the extended crit range in Kensai should have stayed at 18, etc . . .

    As it is now it's just a mess.

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,524

    Default

    Go away and leave my invincible 4 pally / 6 monk / 10 rogue alone!

    Dont nerf meh!

  7. #7
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Saskatchewan, Canada
    Posts
    1,206

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So I hear that there is no reason to run a pure build because multi-classes are oh so powerful. Maybe too powerful. Ergo, for the sake of balance, I suggest that we nerf multi-class builds. I say, start with the monk and work your way down from there.

    I mean, the new enhancement system has created a disproportionate group of multiclass builds that needs fixing. After all, if new players can't make their pure builds as powerful as the multiclassed ones, then they'll leave the game. It'll be like Ghostbane all over again, and we can't have that now, can we?

    At the very least, do it for the children.

    Oh wait...is this one of those Fight Club rules thingies again?
    ROFL fight club ... if the dev's don't know about the multiclass power imbalance by now then honestly they aren't worthy of working on the game. The only way you could not know that the vast majority of the builds are better off multiclassed is if you don't actually play the game (or only play on some sort of godmode dev account).

    I don't think they need to "nerf" multiclass per se. I think what they need to do is even out some of the front loading on existing classes. As an example if monk and rogue had to wait an extra level to get evasion would it really make any difference? To the monk / rogue probably not but having to give up even 1 extra level on a caster means you are suddenly looking at losing 9th level spells on a sorc, not a good trade. This is just one simple example of how a minor tweak in the front loading could dramatically change build options.

    That said, the bigger thing they need to do is make pure builds have actual advantages. The capstones need to be buffed moderately to considerably in most cases. They should also allow pure builds to hit tier 5 in more than 1 enhancement tree.

    Providing a better buff at capstone AND a second enhancement tree at tier 5 for pure builds would go a long way towards making a solid argument for "staying pure".

    The only class that is benefited by staying pure is a DC caster. Every other build can gain something more than what they give up with taking a couple of levels of something else. Hell by Cleric 18/ Ftr2 is a far better healer than my pure cleric simply because he's more survivable and his DPS is actually higher on the whole. It's crazy I know but it's true. The only thing I give up is some spell points (that I can easily afford to lose) and divine intervention which is OK but honestly not big enough to give up my tower shield + Shield Mastery + improved Shield Mastery + stalwart defender. the extra AC and PRR means I can stay in the fight to drop the heal needed or that res / raise without risking my neck.

    And honestly I would probably gain a LOT more by taking 2 levels of monk rather than fighter but in this case it was a flavor / build test choice.

    You want me to really think about staying pure on my cleric, then make his capstone something meaningful. Let's say +4 levels turning undead, +75 Spell power on light and healing. And when that is coupled that with the ability to have 2 enhancement trees at level 5, say both the aura and say divine power running at the same time, it is a choice that is harder to make.

    These are the sorts of things you need to look at if you want the "pure" build to mean anything. They had promised with the Enhancement Pass that capstones would be worth it and being pure would be advantageous but honestly the ONLY time that is true is a pure DC caster wizard. A sorc .. might have a reason to stay pure but +20 Spell power really isn't enough for most to make a noticable difference, make it +50 and suddenly that DPS caster really needs to think about whether evasion is worth the boost in DPS.


  8. #8
    Community Member Raoull's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    859

    Default

    Most obvious place to start is pajamas.

    Right now dodge is so key, that getting PRR from armor is usually not worth the lowered dodge cap. Other than a handful of armors with particularly good dodge caps, no armor is worth it.

    So, fix that, and it will be a minor nerf to a monk splash.

    I'd propose one of two changes.

    A) double (or at least seriously boost) the amount of PRR armor gives
    B) raise the dodge cap on all armors by 8-10 points. Feel free to leave the max dex bonus where it's at, since AC is so pointless anyway.
    Cannith Server :Vice Sovereign of The Guild of Calamitous Intent

    Kalener (Monk) Renelak (backup band) Raoull (Mr. McStabby) Kaleray (laser heals) Kalrah (xbow rogue)

  9. #9
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconScout View Post
    <snip>
    Another thing that needs to be looked as is what stacks with what. Should Tempest Stack with Deft Strikes for example? it does . . . but it means that you used to need to be a 12 ranger to get 100% off-hand . . . now all you need is 3 ranger and 1 monk.

  10. #10
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Raoull View Post
    Most obvious place to start is pajamas.

    Right now dodge is so key, that getting PRR from armor is usually not worth the lowered dodge cap. Other than a handful of armors with particularly good dodge caps, no armor is worth it.

    So, fix that, and it will be a minor nerf to a monk splash.

    I'd propose one of two changes.

    A) double (or at least seriously boost) the amount of PRR armor gives
    B) raise the dodge cap on all armors by 8-10 points. Feel free to leave the max dex bonus where it's at, since AC is so pointless anyway.
    Monk is the cause of most of the problems.

  11. #11
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,943

    Default

    6 levels of monk is the capstone.

    What would a fighter capstone have to be to get be to go pure over taking 6 monk and 2 something else? 25% doublestrike? 35%?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    118

    Exclamation Pen and Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So I hear that there is no reason to run a pure build because multi-classes are oh so powerful. Maybe too powerful. Ergo, for the sake of balance, I suggest that we nerf multi-class builds. I say, start with the monk and work your way down from there.

    I mean, the new enhancement system has created a disproportionate group of multiclass builds that needs fixing. After all, if new players can't make their pure builds as powerful as the multiclassed ones, then they'll leave the game. It'll be like Ghostbane all over again, and we can't have that now, can we?

    At the very least, do it for the children.

    Oh wait...is this one of those Fight Club rules thingies again?
    Pen and paper already has a solution to this ‘problem’ – perhaps if they followed the rule set more closely they would not demonstrate such EXXXTREME INCOMPETENCE.

  13. #13
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    6 levels of monk is the capstone.

    What would a fighter capstone have to be to get be to go pure over taking 6 monk and 2 something else? 25% doublestrike? 35%?
    This is why things need to be fixed with nerfs, it's just too brokenly good to adjust with buff of other classes.

    Hell . .. the double-shot capstone in Ranger was almost good enough until Turbine added that stupid -100% debuff for almost the whole cooldown period of manyshot.

  14. #14
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,104

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So I hear that there is no reason to run a pure build because multi-classes are oh so powerful. Maybe too powerful. Ergo, for the sake of balance, I suggest that we nerf multi-class builds. I say, start with the monk and work your way down from there.

    I mean, the new enhancement system has created a disproportionate group of multiclass builds that needs fixing. After all, if new players can't make their pure builds as powerful as the multiclassed ones, then they'll leave the game. It'll be like Ghostbane all over again, and we can't have that now, can we?

    At the very least, do it for the children.

    Oh wait...is this one of those Fight Club rules thingies again?
    nope, no fight club.
    dnd was always about multiclassing if you wanted power,
    only wiz/sorc did rarely multiclass but turbine in all their wisdom thought it would be a great idea to not give us epic spells.
    (do not even mention to me the **** they think is a appropriate substitute for epic spells)

    So now even the last bastion of pure class has fallen and really who cares?
    Taenebrae, Daemonsoul, Daemoneyes and Daemonheart of Argonessen
    Glitzakram - Trade Thread

  15. #15
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemoneyes View Post
    . . . who cares?
    I care. Want a hug and a cookie?

  16. #16
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    10,023

    Default

    the only thing that a multi class has over my pure barbarians is better self sufficiency. if you like to challenge yourself and love the feel of a good rush, try playing one. you have to know how to play those OP multi class builds first before you think you know how to play those OP multi class builds. just because you built an OP multi class build doesn't mean it is OP. despite what the forums say and their "math" pure is still very viable if you build right and know how to play. well, except Paladins the PVP pit is nothing like a real quest.

  17. #17
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemoneyes View Post
    nope, no fight club.
    dnd was always about multiclassing if you wanted power,
    only wiz/sorc did rarely multiclass but turbine in all their wisdom thought it would be a great idea to not give us epic spells.
    (do not even mention to me the **** they think is a appropriate substitute for epic spells)

    So now even the last bastion of pure class has fallen and really who cares?
    Epic spells? They didnt even give us most of the regular spells.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #18
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Under the bridge
    Posts
    5,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    the only thing that a multi class has over my pure barbarians is better self sufficiency.
    That's the difference between a toon that's good and one that's not.

  19. #19
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,943

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This is why things need to be fixed with nerfs, it's just too brokenly good to adjust with buff of other classes.

    Hell . .. the double-shot capstone in Ranger was almost good enough until Turbine added that stupid -100% debuff for almost the whole cooldown period of manyshot.
    Naaa there was a good reason to put that debuff in. We couldnt possibly have bard arhers making up some ground on monkchers between many shot cooldowns, now could we?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,329

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So I hear that there is no reason to run a pure build because multi-classes are oh so powerful. Maybe too powerful. Ergo, for the sake of balance, I suggest that we nerf multi-class builds. I say, start with the monk and work your way down from there.

    I mean, the new enhancement system has created a disproportionate group of multiclass builds that needs fixing. After all, if new players can't make their pure builds as powerful as the multiclassed ones, then they'll leave the game. It'll be like Ghostbane all over again, and we can't have that now, can we?

    At the very least, do it for the children.

    Oh wait...is this one of those Fight Club rules thingies again?
    The choice:

    Nerf multiclass, or buff pure classes.

    The issue:

    To buff the pure classes it would require a re-think of both the level 18 enhancements and level 20 capstones. This would require significant effort to ensure that the boosts are enough to make pure classes viable, but not so much that they swing the pendulum too far the other way.

    Or the easy option is to simply nerf multiclass. My guess is they are more interested in the easy options.

Page 1 of 14 1234511 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload