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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We definitely agree that Bards are in need of some love. That was, in fact, a focus of this patch, in which we:

    - Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster). Most Enhancement-based Bard songs were affected by the reduction in playing times.

    - Rebuilt Victory Song entirely, turning it into a toggle that provides full Base Attack Bonus at all times. Previously, it was supposed to grant it only for a few seconds when Inspire Courage was used.

    - Fixed Musical Studies, which provides much-needed Bard songs in Heroic levels.

    - Fixed Song of Heroism to apply in an AOE, as well as give the (much longer) duration it was supposed to.

    - Fixed Inspire Recklessness, which was not giving enough Doublestrike in its third rank.

    - Cleaned up a variety of bugs and feedback issues with various other Bardic abilities.

    We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

    We also recognize that Bards are still in need of additional love, and we thank you for your continued feedback; we are currently weighing some interesting Bard-related things to see if they fit into plans for next year.
    None of that classifies as 'love'. Bug fixes. The class is at the bottom of the pile and it seems that it's Turbines lowest priority? Even after these changes you still say it needs love.. this thread is *full* of the changes that players actually want to be made :P It's there to see.

    Some of those bug fixes were pointed out during open and, I do presume here so correct me if wrong, closed beta?

    You lose Bard players day by day. Start changing the 'enhancement' songs to simply add effects to Inspire Courage, and you'll be on to a winner.

    Victory song doesn't count as anything special, it was the right thing to do. But it's months late at this point. "Fixing" spell-song vigor has angered more people than any of those changes has helped out :P

    More mass songs.. should any song actually be single target? Doesn't make any sense to me.

    On another note, do bards get free Enhancement changes to go pick up the stuff that now works properly? :/ I've wasted more than 1mil plat respeccing out of broken stuff already lmao.


    Good to see the communication, keep it up.

  2. #62
    Community Member Sgt_Hart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.

    We also recognize that Bards are still in need of additional love, and we thank you for your continued feedback; we are currently weighing some interesting Bard-related things to see if they fit into plans for next year.

    Fix: The description then.

    Until you can plausibly sing in a full room, and let one person hear you.. It's quite apparent where the bug was.
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  3. #63
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    This is a bug, already fixed internally, and targeted for an upcoming patch.
    Will you fix its duration as well?

    Song of Arcane Might says it lasts 24 seconds and 6 seconds per level. After all the Duration increases of my currently level 12 Bard, it lasts 4:07 when sung.
    Sustaining Song also says it lasts 24 seconds and 6 seconds per level. It lasts 3:04 when sung.
    Spell Song Vigor also has a duration of 3:04 when sung, and no duration listed in the ability.

    Thank you for cutting the play times to 2 seconds, however, all the cooldowns of the songs are still 10 seconds. This actually doesn't decrease buff times at all since you're waiting for shared cooldowns. This will actually increase parties running away before the bards done, since they'll see the bard standing around for 6 seconds waiting for the next song to be ready to be performed. Please cut the cooldown to 5 seconds which is enough time for the animation to end.


    Also, since my bards aren't currently Epic... has anyone tested whether Epic Elyd Edge makes the single target songs AoE?

  4. #64
    Hero Silken-Akira's Avatar
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    Thanks for the fixes (I do mean it). Now on the other hand let's indeed see that love you were talking about and make bards a class that counts among the others.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Also, since my bards aren't currently Epic... has anyone tested whether Epic Elyd Edge makes the single target songs AoE?
    Prior to the enhancement pass, the Epic Elyd Edge's Inspiring Echoes worked with Spellsong Vigor. I used it all the time, and I loved it.

    However, after today's patch, I found that the Epic Elyd Edge no longer functions that way with Spellsong Vigor. It also does not make Sustaining Song area effect. Per the text in the Inspiring Echoes, it appears always to have listed only 3 songs that it should work on. But it's always seemed to work with all of the songs that were single target for allies. If this was not WAI, then it would have been nice to have THAT mentioned in the patch notes...not to just totally take away something that we've assumed was working correctly for over a year (that's how long I've had my Epic Elyd Edge...not how long it's been in the game).

    I didn't really care about the changes when I read them and logged in to see how everything worked. My husband and I jumped into epic Wiz King, and I did my buffing. As soon as I saw that my Epic Elyd Edge no longer works they way it has for as long as I've had it, I became fully disgusted and had to log out. I've got other stuff to do...like some tv to watch...and a Santa costume to sew...things that I'll enjoy more tonight than I would DDO after this change.

    (note: this is not a rage-quit. I'm just irritated and need a few days to calm down. I've gotten irritated at this game lots in the past 7.5 years that I've played...and I keep coming back. But I am very frustrated by this new change and disappointed. It seems that somehow the devs have it in their heads that bards are overpowered and must always be reined in. Don't get me wrong...I do all right in quests...and I love playing bards--I have 6 in this game--but it does feel that we get shafted or outright neglected more than most other classes.)

  6. #66
    Community Member Steevye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold_Ranger_Black View Post
    Sustaining song is now bugged as well, only working single target
    Yeah seems like when they changed SV, they did the same changes to this song.

    I'd like to see the SP bursts back with SS if it's going single target. Sustaining song is described as an aoe and has always functioned as such, now it's really not worth using.

    But hey, song of heroism is aoe again, and while there is negligible difference in song casting time, it was an attempt.
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  7. #67
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Actually, they went one further and made sustaining song single target only, and it is supposed to be a group thing
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    This is a bug, already fixed internally, and targeted for an upcoming patch.
    Quote Originally Posted by LrdSlvrhnd View Post
    And once again, a "bug" in the players' favor gets "fixed". If this had been the other way around - if the description had stated AoE and it was proccing as single-target - I guarantee that the "fix" would've been a change in the description.
    What else can you guarantee?

    I guarantee the Unending Song of Hyperbolic Whine on the forums.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar
    - Reduced the singing time of a lot of Bard songs, some by more than half (Including Song of Capering, which was an important one for a lot of Bards. The total singing time on SoC went from five seconds to two, and the effect should be kicking off faster).
    To reiterate what another has said, pre enhancement pass song of capering was instant cast. It's why the relative few that took virtuoso did so--even shortening it to 2 seconds is terribly worse than it was before the pass.

  9. #69
    Community Member Shmuel's Avatar
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    WAI is irrelevant if intended way for this to work sucks.

    The aoe spellsong vigor was a less than adequate replacement for the real major bard nerf - which was the complete removal of spellsingers mass spellpoint regen to the entire party as a percent chance of their perform with EVERY SONG they sang.

    I pointed this out to at least 3 separate developers during the enhancement pass preview, so it was no oversight.

    Bards have the potential to be lots of fun. as they are now, they are no fun. sing your songs dance a couple individual mobs, maybe backup heal a bit. even with an epic sword of shadow and PDK charisma to damage enhancements a bard cannot get meaningful damage at endgame. Not a single spell they cast which has a save will be effective at endgame. The one major bard ability- fascinate - breaks when the first time someone hits the mob with an aoe effect, which are increasingly common on basic weapons.


    Here is how to fix bards without making them OP(making them OP being nearly impossible without remaking the entire game):

    1. Change the bard party buff songs: make bard songs aoe and make them additions to the basic inspire courage rather than separate songs so we only have to sing once. Double the bonus values for all of them once the bard hits level 21 (ie. inspire courage grants +8 damage instead of +4 at epic levels)

    2. Make bardic (and arty while at it) DC casting potentially relevant at endgame. make an epic feat that requires 20 bard or 20 artificer class levels that gives a +5 DC to evocation and enchantment spells.

    3. add to both bard capstones the ability for mobs to remain fascinated until they are down to 50% of their original HP, not just until they are hit at all, or make an epic feat which makes them remain fascinated no matter how much damage they take (i suggest calling this feat "death metal mosh pit frenzied fascinate" or some such)

    4. Add more spells to the spellsinger line. Wall of sound is still good (if you are not too busy depositing money from ottobox sales to create the spell), mass hold monster, prismatic spray, and some other appropriate choices.

    5. grant 2 class feats at levels 10 and 20. make them the same as wizard or fighter class feat choices.


    OK I've said my peace, now you can go ahead and never read this and redo the entire feat system from the ground up instead of making any new content for the next two years.
    Last edited by Shmuel; 12-10-2013 at 09:09 PM.
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  10. #70
    Hero Silken-Akira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shmuel View Post
    WAI is irrelevant if intended way for this to work sucks.

    The aoe spellsong vigor was a less than adequate replacement for the real major bard nerf - which was the complete removal of spellsingers mass spellpoint regen to the entire party as a percent chance of their perform with EVERY SONG they sang.

    I pointed this out to at least 3 separate developers during the enhancement pass preview, so it was no oversight.

    Bards have the potential to be lots of fun. as they are now, they are no fun. sing your songs dance a couple individual mobs, maybe backup heal a bit. even with an epic sword of shadow and PDK charisma to damage enhancements a bard cannot get meaningful damage at endgame. Not a single spell they cast which has a save will be effective at endgame. The one major bard ability- fascinate - breaks when the first time someone hits the mob with an aoe effect, which are increasingly common on basic weapons.


    Here is how to fix bards without making them OP(making them OP being nearly impossible without remaking the entire game):

    1. Change the bard party buff songs: make bard songs aoe and make them additions to the basic inspire courage rather than separate songs so we only have to sing once. Double the bonus values for all of them once the bard hits level 21 (ie. inspire courage grants +8 damage instead of +4 at epic levels)

    2. Make bardic (and arty while at it) DC casting potentially relevant at endgame. make an epic feat that requires 20 bard or 20 artificer class levels that gives a +5 DC to evocation and enchantment spells.

    3. add to both bard capstones the ability for mobs to remain fascinated until they are down to 50% of their original HP, not just until they are hit at all, or make an epic feat which makes them remain fascinated no matter how much damage they take (i suggest calling this feat "death metal mosh pit frenzied fascinate" or some such)

    4. Add more spells to the spellsinger line. Wall of sound is still good (if you are not too busy depositing money from ottobox sales to create the spell), mass hold monster, prismatic spray, and some other appropriate choices.

    5. grant 2 class feats at levels 10 and 20. make them the same as wizard or fighter class feat choices.


    OK I've said my peace, now you can go ahead and never read this and redo the entire feat system from the ground up instead of making any new content for the next two years.
    Like this suggestions.

    I actually have a challenge for the dev team in mind. Let's make the next iconic a bard oriented one that is up to par with other builds at epic levels.I guess this will maybe force them to actually take action on some points mentioned in you list above and other people their remarks, because I can't believe they can all cram it in the race to make it any decent.

  11. #71
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Some terrific ideas S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shmuel View Post
    2. Make bardic (and arty while at it) DC casting potentially relevant at endgame. make an epic feat that requires 20 bard or 20 artificer class levels that gives a +5 DC to evocation and enchantment spells.
    I would prefer to see this added to the enhancement tree. There's plenty of room for it if you get rid of some of fluff, and it would allow multiclassers to get some, or most of the plusses to DC as they level. It would be easy enough to lock out other casters from taking these by making the level requirement high enough that they're only available to actual bards... like maybe the first +1 to DCs at lvl 12, another at 16, then 18, with a final +2 dc available with capstone. This would give part time bards a little more incentive to be more bardlike, and still give pures a boost.

  12. #72
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    We recognize that some of you are unhappy with the fix to Spellsong Vigor; the intent was not to make Bards weaker, but to fix a bug in an existing ability that was not working as intended. Prior to the U19 Enhancement pass, it was single target, and the description has always indicated this, even between U19 and today's patch.
    But why??? Just... WHY??? Allowing the "bug" to continue is one of the best things that ever happened to spellsingers. Do you have any idea how long it takes to apply spellsong vigor to every caster in a raid group? It's not about lack of songs, it about the sheer amount of time it takes to sing the songs and wait for the 10 second cooldown. Long after everyone else has cast all of their single-target AND mass spells, the bard is still there, singing away. And when spellsong vigor duration expires, you have to hunt down each player to sing it for them... and Host forbid they move our of range while singing. It was so much easier to simply say "group up for spellsong vigor" and let it go at that. You should have left the "bug" in and changed the description.

    Bards don't want to be running around singing single-target buffs the whole time. It isn't fun. ALL bard songs should be balanced to affect an AoE.

  13. #73

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    Ive been asking for this one for years:

    Medley:
    One song does it ALL! All available bard songs buffages are available in one (slightly longer) song. Additionally, you can check off which songs are part of your stack. Naturally, you can still sing each song independently.

    ~~~~**~~~~

    When it comes to playing a bard right, time is of the essence. "Not having time" to sing a bard song should never be an acceptable excuse. Turbine needs to address this once and for all.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 12-14-2013 at 05:38 PM.


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  14. #74
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    I don't have problem with time. If there is sufficient count of the DPS toons and the healers I am playing a support toon being able to cast and/or to sign the songs during a fight without any interruption (including Fascinate, regardless on how many THF firghters are in the group). Why buff only at the start or at the rest shrines? You can walk or run during the signing. Running phases are the best for the buffing.

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  15. #75
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    I don't have problem with time. If there is sufficient count of the DPS toons and the healers I am playing a support toon being able to cast and/or to sign the songs during a fight without any interruption (including Fascinate, regardless on how many THF firghters are in the group). Why buff only at the start or at the rest shrines? You can walk or run during the signing. Running phases are the best for the buffing.
    Because all you're doing is singing constantly and trying to stay with the fast people.

    I've long wanted to add effects to existing songs instead of adding new songs. Give us more single-song short-term things (like capering - and convert the action-boost WC things into songs) - sure ... make them quick-cast like an action boost. Hell, make sustaining song a quick-cast vigor instead.

    Othrewise though ... stack everything on fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire heroics - whatever.
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  16. #76
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Because all you're doing is singing constantly and trying to stay with the fast people.
    And you did find that this is not fun. Because everybody want to play self sufficient selfhealing high DPS killers (with evasion ability to disable traps) That is why healers don't want to heal, and bards don't want to sing.

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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    And you did find that this is not fun. Because everybody want to play self sufficient selfhealing high DPS killers (with evasion ability to disable traps) That is why healers don't want to heal, and bards don't want to sing.
    I enjoy healing - there is some challenge.

    I like support - I don't think bards should have the same dps as everybody else.

    That doesn't change the fact that cycling through a bunch of songs is boring.

    Add all buffing songs to Inspire Courage (with a metamagic style toggle). Length of songs will also need to be standardised.
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  18. #78
    Community Member Catclaws's Avatar
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    Default Sustaining still broken?

    Is Sustaining Song still broken?

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    And you did find that this is not fun. Because everybody want to play self sufficient selfhealing high DPS killers (with evasion ability to disable traps) That is why healers don't want to heal, and bards don't want to sing.
    I have some sympathy for what you're saying, but there's no depth to that gameplay in the bard as is. People are fighting, so inspire courage. We're in a quest at all, so inspire excellence. There's at least one spellcaster in the party, so spellsongs. Outside of a song or two, all the buffing bard songs you kind of just want up all the time, to the limits of your number of songs per rest.

    (Fascinate/enthrall/capering are all exceptions to this, of course.)

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Because all you're doing is singing constantly and trying to stay with the fast people.

    I've long wanted to add effects to existing songs instead of adding new songs. Give us more single-song short-term things (like capering - and convert the action-boost WC things into songs) - sure ... make them quick-cast like an action boost. Hell, make sustaining song a quick-cast vigor instead.

    Othrewise though ... stack everything on fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire heroics - whatever.
    Agree on this one.
    Yea, adding in toggle-able stacking effects onto IC is probably the simplest way of cleaning up the buffing process (for melee) and a different song for the spell/casting buffs.

    A quick fix to the DC based disparity is adding in a bonus class feature to Bards, something like getting +1 to enchantment based DCs for every 6 Bard levels so it ends up being +3 by L18 to cover the Level6 vs Level9 spell gap.

    Another quick fix to spell based options would be to use a Bard's forte in music and the spoken word by adding in say Power Word spells at various enhancement tiers (which is more optimal and keeping in lore). This is how I setup my Sublime Chord Bard char in PnP under 3.5 (seems to be more in theme than say Meteor Swarm/Evocation type spells). The various higher level hold spells also fit the motif.

    Seems like there's any number of "simple" tweaks/changes which can dramatically improve the Bard class features and quality of play time if they really wanted to do it.

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