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  1. #81
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Your AC has NOTHING to do with this.
    Exactly.

    The other stuff is OK. I'd prefer heavier armors to offer more PRR right out of the gate. Frankly, it doesn't need to scale by BAB either - just a flat amount of PRR would be fine.

    But AC as become a pretty flat bell curve made of translucent jello. It's hard to see, hard to predict, you don't really know where you stand, you know more is better but generally speaking, everyone falls in the same range whether or not they devote lots or little investment into it. Investing tons into it, because the jello curve is flat, doesn't give a lot of value.
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  2. #82
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rush007 View Post
    What would cause the low hits? PPR does not cause the number to be adjusted by that much.
    In EN and EH or explorer areas, AC does work for the most part. The issue is, when it becomes EE, everything goes out the window. A character that you built for AC is all of a sudden a meat pinata that is beaten until the candy falls out.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I like the current system better because it isn't all-or-nothing like the old system was. Under the old system AC was only relevant in a range of 20 numbers otherwise it was 95% hit or 95% miss. However, i don't pay much attention on EE whether a 80 AC does any good at all. My combat window has too much info for me to make use of it and what I am looking for has typically already scrolled off the screen by the time I have a chance to look.
    Previously, we had a narrow range of useful AC, but it was well-defined: going into Gianthold just about everyone could get a 40-50 AC, if they wanted it, to mitigate a lot of incoming damage. For endgame raids, a small number of tanks on the server could get enough AC to not get hit by the boss all the time, while a layer under those was a group who could get enough AC to not be hit by the trash in those raids all the time. While problematic for people who wanted AC, but really had no way to get to a reasonable number, and for the devs who didn't like having characters holding aggro who could be hit only 5%, this system worked better than what we have now, where it's almost impossible to actually tell how effective your AC, where we can't get above a 75% miss chance with it, and where even for those characters invested in AC the devotion just doesn't yield satisfying returns.

    We would have been better off with the useful range being expanded by 20-40 points, and adjusting things so even the guys with a ton of AC were probably going to get hit some of the time (more than 5%). There were ways that this could have been done that would have made sense, and would not have caused the difficult to grasp system of swiftly diminishing returns we have now. Then, on top of all of that, we still have a game where most players don't bother with AC, because even the guys who do invest heavily in it are getting hit all the time in the content that matters.

    You 80 AC is worthless in EE.
    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You don't see a problem with this? As in, how do you create difficulty in a system where everyone can easily just never be hit in combat.

    AC is a dead system. They should just remove it from the game. It has been replaced with superior systems that do not breakdown in harder content.
    AC is only a mostly dead system, and not because of its inherent nature, but because of how it has been maladjusted.

    We never had a system where everyone can easily never be hit. The system is actually skewed more in that direction now, than it was in the AC heydays, with 28% dodge layers with a 5% miss chance, a 20-50% concealment miss chance, and a 10-35% incorporeal miss chance that basically anyone can achieve...except the guys in armor.

    AC breaking down in harder content is a solvable problem that the devs just haven't ever addressed properly. They inflate monsters' stats moving from normal to hard to elite without giving any consideration to what the effect of that inflation is. Like Lord of Blades when the cap was 20...we could get the AC to tank him effectively on normal, and on hard with some more work (possibly applying stacked curses and other debuffs); getting the AC for elite was almost impossible even with group cooperation, and for epic it was out of the quest. Did this create much more challenge? Kind of, in that we were simply left with no way to mitigate damage except by placing more emphasis on HP and healing, and the design precluded the usefulness of tanks in the more difficult content, where you would expect them to be more necessary. If they had plateaued the LoB's to-hit at a figure where the guys with enough AC to be hit only 5% of the time on hard were getting hit 50% of the time on epic, that would have been reasonable, because it would still have been effective. There's no reason to scale to-hit so high. If you were in a pen and paper game, the Dungeon Master wouldn't scale things to the degree that it completely obsoleted a primary stat/focus of one of their players.
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  4. #84
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    In EN and EH or explorer areas, AC does work for the most part. The issue is, when it becomes EE, everything goes out the window. A character that you built for AC is all of a sudden a meat pinata that is beaten until the candy falls out.
    This is the problem. Everyone gets a trophy on normal. People who try at all get a trophy for hard.

    We need goals to aim, build and gear characters for ... when you want to build an AC tank, you should have some level to aspire to (the lack of raids or need for a tank for anything at present notwithstanding ... )

    Frankly, the fact AC is bad is offset by the fact that there are no raids, no bosses you need to tank, etc. Some day though, there will be again (I hope) and for that the sad truth is the mechanics do not lend themselves towards AC being anything you should invest any real effort in.
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  5. #85
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Well, 90 before MotU, 175 at 25 before EP, maybe there is a masochist now with stacked EPLs and 210 AC ?
    Maybe that works, or is needed ( expected ) now ?
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    In EN and EH or explorer areas, AC does work for the most part. The issue is, when it becomes EE, everything goes out the window. A character that you built for AC is all of a sudden a meat pinata that is beaten until the candy falls out.
    Study in the sable was EE. Question is if AC is not causing the low hits, what is then? PRR does not take a 200 hit and lower it to 20. The other defenses have nothing to do with a damage number. I will see if I can recreate and post the findings. Maybe its because I use a shield and there is a system we don't know about.

    Theory 1: Players get glancing blows when they do not fully beat the AC of the monster they are attacking. Does this apply to players when a monster attacks them? I would think yes, but this is what test will be about.

    Theory 2: AC is useless vs certain monsters as to hit is extremely high. This is however not a blanket statement for all EE. Certain mobs will have less hit or BAB making AC have some value against them like the gargoyles in the example. Other mobs, like full leveled fighter mobs AC would have zero impact as it would always beat the AC with its massive to hit. So characters with 180 AC thinking they are god vs these will get slaughtered.

    I don't build for AC, I am just noting what I have seen and will now try to collect data on.
    Last edited by Rush007; 12-10-2013 at 01:23 PM.

  7. #87
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rush007 View Post
    Study in the sable was EE. Question is if AC is not causing the low hits, what is then? PRR does not take a 200 hit and lower it to 20. The other defenses have nothing to do with a damage number. I will see if I can recreate and post the findings. Maybe its because I use a shield and there is a system we don't know about.
    I use a shield too. Most AC build tanks do...some of it is for defense but the main reason is doublestrike.
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  8. #88
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    I just soloed EE Trial by fury. And against the final boss, I had once "miss" that I noticed. Against the trash, I had numerous "misses" when I was attacked. I tried to keep as many encounters to one of one as I could.

    I was on my gimped melee druid.

    113 unbuffed AC
    121 PRR
    3% dodge
    with a ring of shadows numerous incorporal misses.

    I also had quite a damn few misses with my 3% dodge against the final boss.

    But hey, maybe I am playing a different game.

    Don't ask me to post a video, as Im a computer dummy.
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  9. #89
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    So low-level EEs? Against trash?

    Try that in Gianthold/Stormhorns and get back to us.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    This is the problem. Everyone gets a trophy on normal. People who try at all get a trophy for hard.

    We need goals to aim, build and gear characters for ... when you want to build an AC tank, you should have some level to aspire to (the lack of raids or need for a tank for anything at present notwithstanding ... )

    Frankly, the fact AC is bad is offset by the fact that there are no raids, no bosses you need to tank, etc. Some day though, there will be again (I hope) and for that the sad truth is the mechanics do not lend themselves towards AC being anything you should invest any real effort in.
    The fact that tanking is no longer required is a positive, as is tha fact that most content on heroic or EH doesn't need a healer.

    The holy trinity is a long dead and obsolete video game mechanic, and having to stand around all day long with an LFM requesting specific roles has always sucked in any online game. Its always better that you can have any party mix and still be able to play the game, and even be able to solo when there's no one joining your LFM.

    Yesterday I joined a group for elite BB big top. There was just the leader and I was on my FVS / rogue. We were waiting for 5-10 minutes and no one else joined, so I asked 'want to get started with hires?'. The leader replied 'no'.

    So I said, 'fair enough, I'll leave and solo it instead then, good luck'. Stepped in, popped a cleric hireling, completed the quest, it just took me 20 minutes, but if I would have been waiting for that much or even more for a full group then it would have wasted even more time.

    The game is good how it currently is, the vast majority of content up to raids and EE can be soloed with or without a pocket cleric. As fir AC it absolutely does work in heroic elite and EH. 60-80 AC is near god mode in heroic elite, and 100-120 in EH.

    EE however, the games hardest difficulty is, as it should be, very hard. It should require a competent group to beat EE quests, but what you can do is play EH or EN if its taking too long to find a group.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    I just soloed EE Trial by fury. And against the final boss, I had once "miss" that I noticed. Against the trash, I had numerous "misses" when I was attacked. I tried to keep as many encounters to one of one as I could.

    I was on my gimped melee druid.

    113 unbuffed AC
    121 PRR
    3% dodge
    with a ring of shadows numerous incorporal misses.

    I also had quite a damn few misses with my 3% dodge against the final boss.

    But hey, maybe I am playing a different game.

    Don't ask me to post a video, as Im a computer dummy.
    That's your monk? hmm seems to be a very low dodge for a monk

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  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    That's your monk? hmm seems to be a very low dodge for a monk

    There's a whole line in his post that says 'gimped melee druid'.

  13. #93
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    The fact that tanking is no longer required is a positive, as is tha fact that most content on heroic or EH doesn't need a healer.

    The holy trinity is a long dead and obsolete video game mechanic, and having to stand around all day long with an LFM requesting specific roles has always sucked in any online game. Its always better that you can have any party mix and still be able to play the game, and even be able to solo when there's no one joining your LFM.
    Your opinion. I'm fine with having some content that rewards having an AC tank in the hardest difficulty to give us something to aim for. You aren't.

    Yesterday I joined a group for elite BB big top. There was just the leader and I was on my FVS / rogue. We were waiting for 5-10 minutes and no one else joined, so I asked 'want to get started with hires?'. The leader replied 'no'.

    So I said, 'fair enough, I'll leave and solo it instead then, good luck'. Stepped in, popped a cleric hireling, completed the quest, it just took me 20 minutes, but if I would have been waiting for that much or even more for a full group then it would have wasted even more time.
    cool story bro?

    The game is good how it currently is, the vast majority of content up to raids and EE can be soloed with or without a pocket cleric. As fir AC it absolutely does work in heroic elite and EH. 60-80 AC is near god mode in heroic elite, and 100-120 in EH.
    Like I said, everyone gets the trophy in normal and you get a trophy for trying in EH. That really sets the bar high and encourages one to strive for goals, doesn't it? Sounds "good" to you?
    EE however, the games hardest difficulty is, as it should be, very hard. It should require a competent group to beat EE quests, but what you can do is play EH or EN if its taking too long to find a group.
    This has what to do with what? Are you suggesting I find the game impossible to play on EE or something? Did you read that somewhere?
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  14. #94
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    AC tanking doesn't work in the highest difficulty, there is no reward or reason to try it on EE. There is no point in trying to reach a high enough AC for EE because it will never happen.

    Its perfectly valid on heroic elite and EH though, and pretty easy to pull off, but then again, you don't even need it because this content can be beaten without an AC tank.

  15. #95
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    The old problem was the best way to get AC also involved magical mitigation.
    The new problem is the best way to get your defenses up also involves magical mitigation...
    Seriously, all that devwork, and rule-book shredding for status-quo-ante...
    Last edited by Scraap; 12-10-2013 at 03:30 PM.

  16. #96
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    That was something I never understood. What is the one thing most melee's should be weak against, magic. And even with an extremely high AC, a tank could still get pounded by magic and traps....especially if they didn't have evasion. There was the ying/yang balance there. It is the whole superman situation....invulnerable vs anything physical but throw a little magic in there and they drop like a ton of bricks. Why didn't they include more spell casters to offset the whole unable to be physically attacked thing?
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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    That was something I never understood. What is the one thing most melee's should be weak against, magic. And even with an extremely high AC, a tank could still get pounded by magic and traps....especially if they didn't have evasion. There was the ying/yang balance there. It is the whole superman situation....invulnerable vs anything physical but throw a little magic in there and they drop like a ton of bricks. Why didn't they include more spell casters to offset the whole unable to be physically attacked thing?
    First of all, AC =/= tank.

    If you want to build a tank, aim for ALL of the following in DDO:

    Minimum 150 AC
    Evasion
    31% dodge
    25% incorporeal
    10% ghostly
    50% concealment
    70+ to each save with no fail on a 1 EDs / twists
    As much PRR as possible.

    The only class that can pull off all of the above with a little effort is a monk. And they don't even need a shield.

  18. #98
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    The formula for calculating actual miss chance you get against a particular enemy is:

    (MonsterCR * 2.5 + 10.5) / (2 * AC) = hit chance

    So with an AC of 193 against an enemy of your level (28) the miss chance is 79% (1.0 minus hit chance calculated above). It is because of this calculation that even a moderate amount of AC is helpful. In fact any amount of AC that boosts your miss chance above 5% is arguably useful. So, mission accomplished. The new system makes AC relevant to more than just the handful of people that focused only on AC in the old system. All praise Turbine!

    Or not. Turbine's great plan for making harder content is jacking up the CR of monsters. Current end game content (EE) has trash mobs sitting around CR65! If we crunch that into the formula an AC of 193 gets us a miss chance of... 55%...

    55??? 55!!?!?!?!??! ***... Displacement grants just about the same amount of protection. Some of you might be thinking that 55% is pretty good, but clearly you do not play EE content against CR65 mobs or you would know that they hit for ~400 damage a swing, and that's just the trash. Yes this can be mitigated to ~190 dmage after PRR and DR. That is still not good enough. You would be hard pressed to keep healed with 4 or 5 of those trash mobs beating on you at the same time.

    This is wrong. The place where AC is needed the most is the same place where it has the least effect. With the amount of damage these end game trash mobs are putting out, are we really making a character "godly" by giving them 75% miss chance, or even 95% miss chance? I don't think so. We are already talking about numbers that take a significant investment in AC and PRR to achieve. If someone wants to play a dedicated tank, it should be viable in end game content.

    The issue of monks being able to achieve these numbers without the same effort as a sword and board in heavy armor is a different topic. I would agree that sword and board should be rewarded for trying to be a tank, not be penalized by losing dodge while AC just doesn't do nearly enough at end game to make up for that loss. Meanwhile, monks can reap all the benefits without any loss and does not even have to deal with the penalties that heavy armor and tower shields come with. It is a bit too much. I am not saying monks should get smacked around with the nerf bat (ok, maybe they should), but that something needs to be given back to the sword and board tanks out there who are now all but useless in end game content.

  19. #99
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    So low-level EEs? Against trash?

    Try that in Gianthold/Stormhorns and get back to us.
    You need to boost your reading comprehension. Trial by Fury in Gianthold. I also stated that I scored at least one miss against the final boss. That is not trash. But hey, you guys are arguing that its impossible to score amy miss due to AC in any hard EE content. But yeah, Im a liar.

    You will never hear me spout absolutes regarding this game. All I stated was that it can help and be somewhat effective, especially when you throw in other types of mitigation.

    Considering he stunned me twice, which almost killed me, one miss can make all of the difference in EE.

    Ill take one miss over no misses.

    And as far as my monk, I never claimed anything regarding that toon. Only that it is easier to achieve a high AC on my monk over my armor toons. My aromored toons I had to work at a llitte harder.

    My monk would never survive long enough to see if I could register a miss. Do to not having enough other types of mitigation.

    But yeah, I guess that makes me a liar too.
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  20. #100
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOON375 View Post
    Trial by Fury in Gianthold.
    Um . . Trial by FIRE is in gianthold.

    You really think me of all people would not be familiar with a quest that involves MURDERING A BUNCH OF HELPLESS TROLLS? Oh the humanity, worst quest in the game, every time I run it I need to murder some halflings in 'Purge the Heretics' to restore karmic balance in the uninverse.

    Trial By Fury - is in the Demonweb.

    Trial by Furrie - is something I did in Vegas once, I hope there aren't pictures.

    So in closing, I still don't believe you and hjeal meh.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 12-10-2013 at 04:31 PM.

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