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  1. #141
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoull View Post
    So is a cleave, yet last I checked Adrenaline effects did not work on every target hit by a cleave.
    and it should effect the full Cleave attack

    Adrenaline doesn't work on Repeaters which fire 3 bolts in one attack it only effects the first bolt it should work on repeaters also

  2. #142
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    A first life toon in synergizing ED is more powerful than anything not in an ED with completionist. Players can roll through EEs with first life shiradi arcanes. The platform prior to EDs matters far less than having a full ED does.

    Its not "the last little bit is EDs" as EDs make even the most hilarious builds do EE viable damage.

    EDs are the 800 pound gorilla in the middle of the room no one wants to talk about, so they push their personal agendas regarding certain playstyles instead. Ite the EDs that overpower everything. Not ranged, and not melee.

    The fact that we "need" (more like desire) heavy hitting toons with multiplied damage in EE shows us how much arbitrary multipliers to damage have unbalanced the game. Ive seen numerous threads about how EE is very different from EH and EN, but none of them point to the real cause. EE is the one balanced for being in full destiny. Eds are the single biggest increase to character power. No one wants this addressed however, but they want to take your "lazy archery" away, which is nothing more than a personal agenda.
    I disagree on the general *roll through ee in Shiradi*. Experienced players know how to get through epic elite, even on a 1st life. But are you assuming a new player? Or experience + bank items? Or experience + starting from scratch for teh funsies? I think that despite any gear the lack of gameplay experience decides whether epic elite is steamrolled or not. On top ofit dungeon scaling (but honestly I don't know if that exists foree, never bothered to check).

    Toning down ee mob hp and saves to a point, where sp cost/efficiency bilance does allow being an archmage should do it. I take your argument and project it on the epic elite difficulty. If there are just 2 types of characters for epic elite, Shiradi caster or Mnk splash fury shot archers, then epic elite is not balanced.

    Regarding the ED themselves I think they should remove the random effect from Shiradi and revamp it to be a solid ranged combat ED and not a ranged-combat-but-most-useful-for-casters-somethingsomething destiny. Then of course fury shot had to be removed, too, so that adrenalin + epic moment shines on melees.

    In the end I see more than one culprit regarding build diversity in epic elite quests. Anyway, the suggestion to ioncrease gameplay difficulty in a selective manner is stupid. Sorry madmatt, it just is.
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  3. #143
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    MM I cant stand your posts, but I will say this Teh Troll has nothing on you, you are by far the most creative forum troll ever. Teh get back under the bridge because there's a new sheriff in town and he's more of a moron than you are.
    Proud to be a Ghostbanian.

  4. #144
    Founder xberto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    these days when you think of building ranged you think of Monk. you can build a top dps ranged mixed build but Ranger is at best a couple levels. you don't see ranged Kensei or rarely see a Follower of the Silver Flame FVS or Paladin. it seems everything is better with Monk levels. Teh Troll really does have it right about Monks.
    This is true and I dont like it. Its somewhat unbalanced that every imaginable build becomes better if you add monk levels. I hate Monks for this reason.
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  5. #145
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTFM View Post
    Norg the current method of play still rewards everything you describe with.....higher kill counts! If that is indeed the reward a player is looking for.

    How exactly is this lazy ranged playing you describe being rewarded? I mean, when you have 3-4 ranged players in a party they can either fight for kill count or let one go nuts the others go a bit more relaxed.

    Ranged play is less demanding for the simple reason you just don't get hit near as much as a melee toon.
    I actually like the concept that ranged characters can take less damage, but I think the balance should be that they have to work harder to do the equivalent damage that a melee does in essence. Melee have to work harder to survive so the balance should be that a ranged character has to work harder to do the equivalent damage. Ranged players do not work hard to maximize their damage or work hard at really much of anything when compared to a melee these days.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  6. #146
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I actually like the concept that ranged characters can take less damage, but I think the balance should be that they have to work harder to do the equivalent damage that a melee does in essence. Melee have to work harder to survive so the balance should be that a ranged character has to work harder to do the equivalent damage. Ranged players do not work hard to maximize their damage or work hard at really much of anything when compared to a melee these days.
    How do you realistically change the workload?

    If you're fighting a pack of mobs, you move to line up two or more--people already do this if they are even halfway competent at their role. If they aren't, well, they're under-performing as an archer, which mirrors someone under-performing as a melee.

    Nothing in your proposal suggested any way to make them work harder. And, really, archers do work hard when the situation calls for it. Kiting a single monster down a long, long corridor, or around an enormous, empty room is easy, especially if the creature can't do anything to you when you're out of range, but kiting something dangerous in a confined space, with other creatures or dangers around? That is challenging, especially if you have other tasks to perform, like healing yourself, or raising the party, that slow down your movement. You have to continue to move, avoid obstacles, avoid dangers, heal yourself, all while keeping your shots on-target. How much more challenging do you want the role to be? And that's more challenging than what most melees are doing most of the time.

    What hard work do melees do to survive? Most of the time, you stand in place and swing, and drink a Silver Flame pot or kick off a Cocoon. If it's getting bad, you circle-strafe around the mob, trying to stay ahead of its swings, but thanks to lag and asynchronous hit boxes that is often not really possible. You can back out of melee to heal yourself, but that's also unlikely to work, as you may get attacked while moving away, and the more you're pulling out, the longer the struggle is going to last (heh). You can't do a variant of kiting and circle strafing as 2-hander, trying to stay just outside of a creature's reach while still landing attacks (I've watched a couple of Axer's solo videos where he did that), but it's a rare player who can do this, or even tries, and is highly dependent on what you're fighting and where. So, okay, there's an example of hard work a melee can put in...but I never see anyone doing that.

    What actual hard work are melees performing that you feel ranged attackers are skating by on?
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  7. #147
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    Nerf AA's? HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  8. #148
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    How do you realistically change the workload?

    If you're fighting a pack of mobs, you move to line up two or more--people already do this if they are even halfway competent at their role. If they aren't, well, they're under-performing as an archer, which mirrors someone under-performing as a melee.

    Nothing in your proposal suggested any way to make them work harder. And, really, archers do work hard when the situation calls for it. Kiting a single monster down a long, long corridor, or around an enormous, empty room is easy, especially if the creature can't do anything to you when you're out of range, but kiting something dangerous in a confined space, with other creatures or dangers around? That is challenging, especially if you have other tasks to perform, like healing yourself, or raising the party, that slow down your movement. You have to continue to move, avoid obstacles, avoid dangers, heal yourself, all while keeping your shots on-target. How much more challenging do you want the role to be? And that's more challenging than what most melees are doing most of the time.

    What hard work do melees do to survive? Most of the time, you stand in place and swing, and drink a Silver Flame pot or kick off a Cocoon. If it's getting bad, you circle-strafe around the mob, trying to stay ahead of its swings, but thanks to lag and asynchronous hit boxes that is often not really possible. You can back out of melee to heal yourself, but that's also unlikely to work, as you may get attacked while moving away, and the more you're pulling out, the longer the struggle is going to last (heh). You can't do a variant of kiting and circle strafing as 2-hander, trying to stay just outside of a creature's reach while still landing attacks (I've watched a couple of Axer's solo videos where he did that), but it's a rare player who can do this, or even tries, and is highly dependent on what you're fighting and where. So, okay, there's an example of hard work a melee can put in...but I never see anyone doing that.

    What actual hard work are melees performing that you feel ranged attackers are skating by on?
    lol ya, ever go into trial by fire, where someone just had to spring 20 flippn EE crawlers after koing the queen? Ya thats a fun jog backwards through a piece of cloth into a room with a boiler power, rocks, and everything else you gotta photo memorize while running backward with the right mouse target circle down pumping arrows, switching stances, hitting your attacks, using a heal scroll if those legs got within 10 yards, hitting a displace/incorp, with a panic wind walk button if you clip yourself even a split second on something you can't pass through.

    idk where the hell this easy buttons comming from, but Id like to try it. Unless its called epic normal.. sorry hard.
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  9. #149
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do not want a nerf to ranged per say, but I have noticed a trend in DDO of more and more ranged characters and less and less melee characters. A big reason for this is because ranged combat has become too easy. At one time in the past for every 10 melee there was 1 ranged character or something to that effect. Ranged combat had dps problems back then, but the really good ranged players could still compete. They used improved precise shot, positioning, ranged tactics, gear such as slayer arrows to be competitive. I would like Turbine to reward that type of ranged play again.

    I think in general ranged dps should be decreased, but improved precise shot and archers focus should have their dps increased. What that means is that a player should work and move to get improved precise shot as much as possible and muli targets lined up when they want to do improved precise shot and then they have to actively switch to archers focus when fighting the boss for more dps on that boss. Ranged combat has gotten far too lazy. DDO is rewarding this lazy play. Melee play has gotten much better because melee skill is getting rewarded, but for some reason this lazy ranged play is getting rewarded. Turbine fix that please.
    ridiculous, /NOT SIGNED.

  10. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    How do you realistically change the workload?

    If you're fighting a pack of mobs, you move to line up two or more--people already do this if they are even halfway competent at their role. If they aren't, well, they're under-performing as an archer, which mirrors someone under-performing as a melee.

    Nothing in your proposal suggested any way to make them work harder. And, really, archers do work hard when the situation calls for it. Kiting a single monster down a long, long corridor, or around an enormous, empty room is easy, especially if the creature can't do anything to you when you're out of range, but kiting something dangerous in a confined space, with other creatures or dangers around? That is challenging, especially if you have other tasks to perform, like healing yourself, or raising the party, that slow down your movement. You have to continue to move, avoid obstacles, avoid dangers, heal yourself, all while keeping your shots on-target. How much more challenging do you want the role to be? And that's more challenging than what most melees are doing most of the time.

    What hard work do melees do to survive? Most of the time, you stand in place and swing, and drink a Silver Flame pot or kick off a Cocoon. If it's getting bad, you circle-strafe around the mob, trying to stay ahead of its swings, but thanks to lag and asynchronous hit boxes that is often not really possible. You can back out of melee to heal yourself, but that's also unlikely to work, as you may get attacked while moving away, and the more you're pulling out, the longer the struggle is going to last (heh). You can't do a variant of kiting and circle strafing as 2-hander, trying to stay just outside of a creature's reach while still landing attacks (I've watched a couple of Axer's solo videos where he did that), but it's a rare player who can do this, or even tries, and is highly dependent on what you're fighting and where. So, okay, there's an example of hard work a melee can put in...but I never see anyone doing that.

    What actual hard work are melees performing that you feel ranged attackers are skating by on?
    I agree kiting mobs in a confined not-symetrical space can be very challenging if you want avoid all the hits. But if you are lousy in doing it, you will still take far less dmg than melee.

    Btw what Axer did decreased his dps significantly and doesn't work as good as you'd think on most mobs.
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  11. #151
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post

    Btw what Axer did decreased his dps significantly and doesn't work as good as you'd think on most mobs.
    Didn't I say exactly that?
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  12. #152
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Why is this even an argument? Casters nuke from orbit with far higher damage to far greater numbers of mobs than any archer.

    Get over it already. Archers/Rangers are valuable in parties again. Yay. Everybody wins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
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  13. #153
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Why is this even an argument? Casters nuke from orbit with far higher damage to far greater numbers of mobs than any archer.
    Wrong.

  14. #154
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Wrong.
    Fine. Generally, casters have a wealth of high damage single target and AoE spells to choose from, putting them in a similar boat with other ranged classes...

    Better?
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  15. #155

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    Not signed, finally my tempest ranger puts out okay DPS, between bow and melee it's a fairly balanced package. If I want carnage I go full 'tard with my horc kensei fighter on legendary

  16. #156
    Community Member deahamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Step 1: Get needle from raiders box.

    Step 2: get AA Slayer arrows from elf/helf/ranger.

    Step 3: Combine triple shot repeater (quad+ shot with doubleshot effects) with +250 damage slayer arrows with Pin/Sense Weakness with Adrenaline Overload.

    Result: 3-4 hits at 300+damage per hit base x 3 crit multiplier x 1.8 helpless x 5x adrenaline = 28,350 damage crits, repeatable often due to IPS/repeater rapid recharge of adrenaline.

    More if you are an artificer with insightful damage. Crits of 15k are "easy" and what you get when you half-ass it. Crits of 30k, yea you can get that all the time, but they usually don't display since 20k will kill any non-boss mob in the game.

    It's only a single weapon proficiency feat to add needle to any bow or shuriken user to give them 30k burst on demand. Seems pretty easy to me compared to trying to make stunning blow feat work.
    I'm confused, please help me.

    On step 3... repeaters use arrows? Since when?

    ---
    Bows used to be pitiful. Monkchers are now finally good enough for people not to scoff (I mean elitists) and welcome them. Xbow artificers have been strong for a long time and even monkchers had a hard time keeping up... I'm not sure what you are trying to argue because artificers were strong as hell before the new enhancements and before the EDs even. Artificer was the first real "range damage is viable" to appear in game. And by viable I mean end-game guilds would let you in. They often would not let any bow user in, unless they knew the person to be able to not pull aggro with many-shot... more often than not they expected that person to mostly use melee combat. Artificers were desired more for buffs but no end-gamer raid party felt it was a waste of spot cause it was considered good damage.

    Solo-ing arties were beast before too. BB+rune-arm+endless = bam, death incarnate. Then in raids they made bosses weak to lightning, put out great DPS on boss, reduced defenses and provided buffs to everyone (higher DPS weapons could now bypass DR or deadly).

    Telling me that xbow artificers are strong range DPS is nothing new and not something that MOTU or after improved or changed.

    What the latest updates did was buff bow DPS so that it is strong or stronger than everything artificer can bring. And both range options of decent level REQUIRE A PAID CLASS. Oh snap, the secret is out.

    ----

    To the rest of the complaining... things would be different if we still had 10 raids to run. Bow users and xbow users were decent enough in quests, issue was at raid time. Now we mostly have EE quests as "end-game", obviously ANYTHING with range or AOE will win by default in quests. I really don't see how you can "fix" that other than making range so painful it goes back to only the most masochistic of us use. Which is what we had before ARTIFICER and what we still had for bows until the enhancement pass.

    Without Shiradi, who would bring a caster in EE?
    Without monkcher past epass and EDs, who would bring a bow user in EE?

    I don't want things going back to the way they used to be.
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  17. #157
    Community Member Sam1313's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do not want a nerf to ranged per say, but I have noticed a trend in DDO of more and more ranged characters and less and less melee characters. A big reason for this is because ranged combat has become too easy. At one time in the past for every 10 melee there was 1 ranged character or something to that effect. Ranged combat had dps problems back then, but the really good ranged players could still compete. They used improved precise shot, positioning, ranged tactics, gear such as slayer arrows to be competitive. I would like Turbine to reward that type of ranged play again.

    I think in general ranged dps should be decreased, but improved precise shot and archers focus should have their dps increased. What that means is that a player should work and move to get improved precise shot as much as possible and muli targets lined up when they want to do improved precise shot and then they have to actively switch to archers focus when fighting the boss for more dps on that boss. Ranged combat has gotten far too lazy. DDO is rewarding this lazy play. Melee play has gotten much better because melee skill is getting rewarded, but for some reason this lazy ranged play is getting rewarded. Turbine fix that please.
    Arcane Archer Rangers are just Awsome all the way around, deal with it. If this game was reality I guarantee you that the Ranger will survive, Hence our modern Military and their Rangers.

  18. #158
    Community Member Dimitres's Avatar
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    Default Butt hurt Matt.

    Matt is either crying because the fury shotting rangers get more kills than he does, steals his kills, or spam kill him in pvp. What a cry baby, get outta' here. If rangers get nerfed, you get perma-banned, shiradi sorcs and wiz get super nerfed,master's blitz gets removed,and paladin becomes the best class. That's an equal trade. People like you are annoying.
    Last edited by Dimitres; 12-10-2013 at 09:15 PM.
    Dimitres Hunter Of Drow-Argonessen. 4x TR all ranger.

  19. #159
    2014 DDO Players Council ishr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Why is this even an argument? Casters nuke from orbit with far higher damage to far greater numbers of mobs than any archer.
    plain false. especially in the case of non-shiradi casters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimitres View Post
    Matt is either crying because the fury shotting rangers get more kills than he does, steals his kills, or spam kill him in pvp. What a cry baby, get outta' here. If rangers get nerfed, you get perma-banned, shiradi sorcs and wiz get super nerfed,master's blitz gets removed,and paladin becomes the best class. That's an equal trade. People like you are annoying.
    vouch.

  20. #160
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimitres View Post
    Matt is either crying because the fury shotting rangers get more kills than he does, steals his kills, or spam kill him in pvp. What a cry baby, get outta' here. If rangers get nerfed, you get perma-banned, shiradi sorcs and wiz get super nerfed,master's blitz gets removed,and paladin becomes the best class. That's an equal trade. People like you are annoying.
    Wow. This is a little over the top. I am a really good ranged player actuallly probably my best two played characters are my bard and my archer. The devs have consistantly demonstrated over the years that they are much better at nerfing things then buffing things, that is just the truth of the matter. So buffing all melee vs. ranged characters is definitely a mistake. I am a fan of more challenge. Playing a melee is challenging, but a ranged character is not that challenging at least on epic elite. Really I think nobody in this thread says that playing a ranged character is more challenging then a melee. There is 100% agreement on that point from what I can tell. Lets make a ranged character more challenging.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

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