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  1. #41
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do not want a nerf to ranged per say...
    Ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I think in general ranged dps should be decreased...
    What?

  2. #42
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    Some years ago i would have laughed about the original post.

    But now after i have seen several youtube videos of solo-bow users killing EE Gianthold Tor enemys like its Epic-Casual (For example killing the first room waves in a few seconds) i have to agree.

    Especially Monkchers are extremly Overpowered right now comapred to any other class.

    If the answer to this problem is nerfing ranged damage is another story.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunklerlindwurm View Post
    Some years ago i would have laughed about the original post.

    But now after i have seen several youtube videos of solo-bow users killing EE Gianthold Tor enemys like its Epic-Casual (For example killing the first room waves in a few seconds) i have to agree.

    Especially Monkchers are extremly Overpowered right now comapred to any other class.

    If the answer to this problem is nerfing ranged damage is another story.
    I disagree. These builds need a lot of work, investements, gear and some kind of player skill as well to make them work the way you see it on youtube. It is not like every noob can make them...lets go nerf them.

  4. #44
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunklerlindwurm View Post
    Some years ago i would have laughed about the original post.

    But now after i have seen several youtube videos of solo-bow users killing EE Gianthold Tor enemys like its Epic-Casual (For example killing the first room waves in a few seconds) i have to agree.

    Especially Monkchers are extremly Overpowered right now comapred to any other class.

    If the answer to this problem is nerfing ranged damage is another story.
    Actually, the solution would be to nerf Monkchers. Especially the 10k stars / manyshot / slay combos with Adrenaline and the like combined... But why always nerfing and nerfing? Why is everybody playing the Monkchers? Because they nerfed everything else. i can perfectly well rembember when everybody did EINs... Until it got nerfed.

    No need to nerf more. Expand!

    Why don´t I see anybody playing on Magister or Draconic EDs? Why do the clerical EDs get so low a reputation? Because these do not give any good combinations that make the game fun and the toon strong. They are lame in contrast. That´s why everybody is playing Shiradi Sorc and fury Monkchers. Nerfing them is no solution. Expanding the other EDs would be.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Actually, the solution would be to nerf Monkchers. Especially the 10k stars / manyshot / slay combos with Adrenaline and the like combined... But why always nerfing and nerfing? Why is everybody playing the Monkchers? Because they nerfed everything else. i can perfectly well rembember when everybody did EINs... Until it got nerfed.

    No need to nerf more. Expand!

    Why don´t I see anybody playing on Magister or Draconic EDs? Why do the clerical EDs get so low a reputation? Because these do not give any good combinations that make the game fun and the toon strong. They are lame in contrast. That´s why everybody is playing Shiradi Sorc and fury Monkchers. Nerfing them is no solution. Expanding the other EDs would be.
    Yup...this is the way to go. Buffing. Not nerfing.

  6. #46
    2014 DDO Players Council April_Kinslayer's Avatar
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    I think a lot of it may be curiosity. Many people probably never seriously leveled a bow user because of the overwhelming disdain for ranged dps. Now that the pendulum has swung the other way a bit (and augmented by the Raider's Reward box) people are more eager to try it out. All things even out over time.
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  7. #47
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somethingtosay View Post
    I disagree. These builds need a lot of work, investements, gear and some kind of player skill as well to make them work the way you see it on youtube. It is not like every noob can make them...lets go nerf them.
    that's no different than any other build. even with the right gear, player skill and other investments pure builds can be extremely powerful. to figure out the "problem" or why so many players prefer to play Shiradis and Monkchers or any other ranged mixed builds that is not of the "norm" you first have to look at the enhancement and feat investment. there in lies the "problem". the gear and the player skill only enhances the character more. if there needs to be some kind of fix to this, it needs to be harder or more costly for these mixed builds to invest if players want to make these powerful builds. the problem with doing this could also affect Rangers and Elves or any build that is considered typically a ranged build.

    imo, I think Monks need to be knocked down a notch or two for better balance. a Monk that can be centered using weapons outside of what they are proficient with is too OP.

  8. #48
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Nah, they're fine.



    I could go for that.

    Also, potentially a nerf or a buff, they should figure out whether they really want Fury of the Wild to work with ranged or not. Parts of it do, parts of it don't. Either make it all work for ranged also, or make it all melee only, instead of this half-@$$ed thing where only some of it works.
    You missed the part where I said "increase ranged attack speed by 20%".

  9. #49
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Let me get this straight.... ranged is now overpowered?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    You missed the part where I said "increase ranged attack speed by 20%".
    Nope, didn't miss it. I just had no comment about that. I commented on what I had a comment about.

  11. #51
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Shiradi sorc with 2 fvs lvls is laughing at this thread.

  12. #52
    Community Member RavenAmazing's Avatar
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    I have a better idea:

    How about NOT re-inventing player choices everytime there is an update. I have never seen any game that continually moves the goal posts. This is like playing a permanenet open beta.

    You are supposed to add new content, not change the existing everytime. It is getting to the point where I hate the updates. Every 2 months and always tremondous changes to something we have been playing for years.

    Regardless of the OP desire, the Ranger is just fine as it is. I am sure we could all the the same thing about any class. Who the hell are you to say which classes should be nerfed anyway?

    So glad devs don't read the forums
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  13. #53
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavenAmazing View Post
    I have a better idea:

    How about NOT re-inventing player choices everytime there is an update. I have never seen any game that continually moves the goal posts. This is like playing a permanenet open beta.

    You are supposed to add new content, not change the existing everytime. It is getting to the point where I hate the updates. Every 2 months and always tremondous changes to something we have been playing for years.

    Regardless of the OP desire, the Ranger is just fine as it is. I am sure we could all the the same thing about any class. Who the hell are you to say which classes should be nerfed anyway?

    So glad devs don't read the forums
    I have seen game that does this every month, moba game, league of legends.

  14. #54
    Community Member Raoull's Avatar
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    I agree that changes should be made, but I think the main issues need to be addressed without impacting other builds. A few targetted nerfs would definitely help even things out.

    In particular, I propose 3 changes.

    -Furyshot is nuts. Change Adrenaline to only apply to the first arrow of a volley.
    -Shiradi effects should only have a chance to apply to the first attack of a multiattack spell (magic missle type things).
    -Monk stances should not be selectable feats.

    It is possible that 10K stars will need to be adjusted as well, but with these changes Monkchers will lose their insane damage burst (fury shot), and depending on build may also lose some of their crit profile. Removing 10K stars with bows would radically alter Moncher builds, so that step should be taken more carefully.

    This will impact mainly ranged builds, although the monk stance will also impact many of the One with the Blade melees. (One with the blade / Earth 3 will still be doable, but will be limited to M12/F8 builds.) However it won't effect the less problematic ranged builds (Shiradi archers, repeating crossbow builds, etc) at all.

    No build will be destroyed (even One with blade builds which lose Earth 3 can still keep the substantial PRR / Dodge / Shadowfade / Evasion defenses they have now), but the most out of line builds will be a bit more down to earth.
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  15. #55
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by totalmir View Post
    So does the stunning blow,should it become stun on hit w/o the DC too?Also,there is 2 of them that have no dc and the cooldown isn't lenghty at all,it's a cc that you do not have to invest anything into to make it work.Venom is just a bonus,and vorpals occur more often on ranged than for instance THF.
    With the way the game has gone, I think it would be entirely reasonable to remove the DC from Stunning Blow and just have it work automatically. Also, unlike Pin or Otto's Stun increases damage to a creature, which is of pretty big benefit when things have thousands and thousands of HP.



    Untrue.
    According to what? Shiradi is kind of fun on an archer, but Fury is where the power lies. Fury is much stronger in EE than Shiradi is on an archer by quite a ways.


    Should be about time.
    .


    Cool,then they wont mind the dc on something that barely affects them.
    Unrelated to this topic, and going the wrong way about things


    Double untrue.
    Really? How many DC-based abilities are at all effective in epics vs. the number that aren't? Of the ones that are, how many require slavish devotion of build in order to get them to that level? Then also require two items equipped as well (a +10 or better tactic DC item, and Combat Mastery)? And we still have most DC-based abilities being fairly worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Do you ever get tired of being so blatantly wrong it makes people laugh out loud? Pin's cooldown allows you to keep a line of mobs incapacitated indefinitely. It works at extremely long range so a group of archers (which is what the balancing should be based off from) could keep 6+ mobs immobile from the moment they come into draw distance. Just because you and most everyone like you are still working out how to set up hot keys and manage your 20 on-screen tool bars, that doesn't mean that Turbine shouldn't balance off from what is POSSIBLE, rather than simply probable.
    I'm not wrong all that often, so no. And other than half-illiterate trolls trying to look cool by being abrasive, I don't know that anyone is LOLing at any of my posts (even the ones I think are funny). There are a lot of things in DDO that are POSSIBLE that only a small fraction of the game's populace is capable of. Should rogues get nerfed because one of them went and soloed the Shroud last week? Or barbarians who did it the week before? Should barbarians or Silver Flame Potions gotten nerfed back when the cap was 20, because Axer could solo Sins of Attrition on elite?

    The moments when you can keep more than one mob Pinned don't come up all that often. We don't have that many places in the game where we can target creatures from farther away than they can hit us, and even fewer where we can do that and line up more than one creature. And in those places, why shouldn't someone be able to do that? Most of the time, we're in a smaller space, and even if we Pin one creature, there are often others moving around and hitting hard anyway. And, as has been suggested earlier in this thread, and for years, if mob AI were improved, this wouldn't be as debilitating as it is.

    Sure, there are some players soloing EE content on their monkchers, but there are also players soloing EE content on their favored souls, their sorcerers, their wizards, their clerics, a few on their monks, some druids...
    Most archers will go with Fury over Shiradi because of the ability to get kills on a whim, combined with the ability to trivialize red-named and purple-named encounters.
    These encounters aren't trivialized in most cases, but certainly made easier and more manageable. That's partly due to Turbine's favorite way of making things more difficult being adding gobs of HP, which is boring, and forces us into these sorts of decisions. And, I guess you don't know how to read that well, or you would have seen my earlier post, and understood it, regarding some changes I proposed to Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot, which would rein in the power of Adrenaline a bit, without nerfing the whole thing from orbit.
    That doesn't mean that Fury is better than Shiradi for a ranged combatant. I switched from Shiradi to Fury on my ranger because I wanted to improve his MELEE tactics - I would have stuck with Shiradi if I wanted a ranged easy button.
    Wait...being able to get kills on a whim and trivialize big encounters doesn't make it better than Shiradi? I don't think you know how to put together a logical argument to support a point. Maybe you should go back to Essay Writing 101...or 3rd grade (but they probably wouldn't let such a creep around kids). Fury + Pin is better than Shiradi + any twist when you're in most EE content, and if you aren't in EE, then play whatever you like!
    Which brings up the fact that the OP is generally correct. Ranged combat is at a state where it is quite easy to get good to stupidly good results. Yes, it's also easy to get stupidly good results with a Skybreaker and THF, and with a caster and mana pots, and with a bard and fascinate, and...
    It's easy to get good results using Manyshot. The same is not true for ranged as a whole, as everything else requires some smart build decisions (or following someone else's), tomes, gear, and some skill. It's not too hard to get ridiculous results with Master's Blitz--I two-manned an EE OoB with a pal who basically soloed the quest, start to finish, on a Blitz. Should that get nerfed? Maybe. Do many people play like that? Not that I've seen.

    It's called power creep. It needs to be fixed. Ranged combat is at the top of the list, because it's the first to come within "range."
    Fixed your poor sentence construction for you. You really shouldn't try to learn to write sentences by reading gamers' text. Nice attempt at a pun, though. If you want to get into power creep, then many things need to be fixed well ahead of ranged combat. Besides, that wouldn't fit the DDO development cycle--ranged would need to rise to be the clear best way to address combat and then get nerfed, after is has been reigning king for a few months to a year or so. Clearly not time for that yet.
    I get it. Your entire point on these forums is misdirection. You don't want the developers to figure out the exploits, so you make backwards statements to confuse them. Nerve venom is the PRIMARY attraction to a Shiradi caster. I do far more DPS in Draconic on my casters than Shiradi. You pretty much HAVE to be doing low to middling DPS in order for the nerve venom delay to be of any use at all.
    Right, my whole point of being on the forums is to be both stupid (your opening points) and dastardly sinister. That makes sense.

    Personally, I don't stay apprised of exploits, and I don't care if Turbine fixes legit ones or not. This isn't an exploit you're describing--it's a WAI feature of the game. And from all the observations I've made, the point of going Shiradi on a caster is to kill EE mobs efficiently as far as mana-spent, which Draconic Incarnation doesn't do. You're spending a few SP to possibly be doing huge chunks of damage thanks to the various damage procs in Shiradi, while also having a chance at insta-killing creatures with Rainbow. Nerve Venom may be a relevant part of this, and it is certainly strong, but if you took away all of the other stuff in Shiradi, I don't think we'd see as many casters using the destiny, whereas if you took away Nerve Venom, I don't believe we'd see much of a drop-off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I always am . . . but it's really the monk thing the pushes ranged over to the full-retard level of NJERF MEH!
    No, it's monk that makes ranged possible 100% of the time, with some effort/focus. TT, have you played an archer? Have you played one without 10K Stars?

    I have. They're terrible. Not because they aren't effective, but because they aren't effective at their chosen focus except for every 20 seconds out of 2 minutes, and they require a lot of feats invested. Compare Power Attack, THF, ITHF, GTHF (or the TWF line), Improved Critical, to Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Critical, Bow Strength (Weapon Focus if not a ranger), and if you want the monk stuff, also Zen Archery and Ten Thousand Stars. That's 5 vs. 7 or 9 feats. And, yes, adding Cleave and Great Cleave to the mix for the melees is worthwhile (for two-handers, mostly), most DPS-oriented martial characters are taking those for Overwhelming Critical, and while melees get to use them, archers are dumping 3 feats into the toilet for that ability.

    Even with all of the positive changes to archery, it's still fairly poor when you're only firing one arrow per shot and hoping for a doubleshot. That the devs felt the need to add a longpenalty to that after Manyshot just makes the non-monkchers even weaker, because they can't even focus heavily on DS to make up for not having a second semi-Manyshot.

    It's funny, I'd be saying for years that what I'd like to see is a metagame where monk archers have the highest rate of fire, rangers easiest access to archery feats, a removal of reliance on Dex to a degree, and strong ranged CC in the form of spells, fighters with ranged tactics abilities and higher damage than the previous two, and barbarians with the biggest ranged DPS, and we mostly have gotten that, but the devs made if very easy to combine those, so we can get the ranger's bonus feats and Paralyzing Arrows, and Leg Shot (except we have Pin which is almost always better) etc...while also picking up 10K Stars along with all of the monk's other useful features (immunities, saves, Evasion, Improved Evasion, run speed, Dodge). While I like the increased flexibility of the system post-enhancement pass, I think it went too far.

    I know you really don't like monks, because you feel they've basically got everything, and overshadow other melee characters, particularly now, when nearly every build that doesn't have barbarian levels (and why would you want them these days?) has at least 2 monk, if not 6 or 12, because it combines even better than it used to, and you're not entirely unjustified in that opinion. Simply nerfing monks, or archery, isn't the way to go, though, unless you really want us back to even archery-focused characters using a bow about 30% of the time, and melee the rest. I know I don't.
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  16. #56
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    From what ive únderstood the OP wants to nerf an entire group of classes and builds because one build is OP in his opinion. Which does not sound well thought through.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    From what ive únderstood the OP wants to nerf an entire group of classes and builds because one build is OP in his opinion. Which does not sound well thought through.
    Not only that, he then goes on to say that most people who play that style aren't very good at it.

    Typical madmatt calling for things to be nerfed that don't fit into his very specific idea of what DDO should be.
    Stop with these threads already.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretchicus View Post
    Stop with these threads already.
    No! These are the natural troll breading grounds and it's almost mating-season. We need more threads like this.

    /on topic. Just nerf monks. Like all things in DDO they are the problem.
    Last edited by Teh_Troll; 12-08-2013 at 02:14 PM.

  19. #59
    Community Member Arianka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    These are the natural troll breading grounds
    breaded trolls? they might taste better that way...i guess.

  20. #60
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    *casts Raise Bread* *drinks Beer of Annihilation*

    The amount of polarising ideas from that user is astonishing. You think it somehow can't get any crazier... there you go.
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