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  1. #1
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Default Make Archery and Ranged Combat More Difficult For the Playerbase

    I do not want a nerf to ranged per say, but I have noticed a trend in DDO of more and more ranged characters and less and less melee characters. A big reason for this is because ranged combat has become too easy. At one time in the past for every 10 melee there was 1 ranged character or something to that effect. Ranged combat had dps problems back then, but the really good ranged players could still compete. They used improved precise shot, positioning, ranged tactics, gear such as slayer arrows to be competitive. I would like Turbine to reward that type of ranged play again.

    I think in general ranged dps should be decreased, but improved precise shot and archers focus should have their dps increased. What that means is that a player should work and move to get improved precise shot as much as possible and muli targets lined up when they want to do improved precise shot and then they have to actively switch to archers focus when fighting the boss for more dps on that boss. Ranged combat has gotten far too lazy. DDO is rewarding this lazy play. Melee play has gotten much better because melee skill is getting rewarded, but for some reason this lazy ranged play is getting rewarded. Turbine fix that please.
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  2. #2
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    and then when the ratio is reversed then what? nerf melee?

  3. #3
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    and then when the ratio is reversed then what? nerf melee?
    The ratio will not reverse. Ranged is too easy. I have played ranged combat and two weapon fighting combat since day one of ddo. I know how difficult it was to be a good ranged player in the past. Now its easy, easy to survive, easy to cc, easy to dps, just plain old easy. Melee is actually a nice challenge right now other then the blitz but even with that the melee has to be wary of the damage they take and getting the blitz going and maintaining it.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Torkzed's Avatar
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    Default I disagree

    There is definitely a trend towards more ranged in the last year or so, but it is no where near an unbalanced state...unless you just want it to "be like it was in the old days".

    Yes, three or four years ago, the ratio was probably 10 melee to 1 ranged (it was probably worse, since every good ranged player knew he had to put away the bow when serious dps was needed). But it certainly has not flipped to 10 ranged for every 1 melee today.

    And melee characters still do more dps than ranged, over a sustained period. The reason I think there are more ranged now is that ranged dps is not quite as pathetic as it was, and the ranged play style has a substantial defensive benefit.

    So even if you think there is some good reason why there should be fewer ranged than melee (I don't know why it matters), I would argue that ranged dps does not need nerfing...melee characters need better defensive options.

  5. #5
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    The ratio will not reverse. Ranged is too easy. I have played ranged combat and two weapon fighting combat since day one of ddo. I know how difficult it was to be a good ranged player in the past. Now its easy, easy to survive, easy to cc, easy to dps, just plain old easy. Melee is actually a nice challenge right now other then the blitz but even with that the melee has to be wary of the damage they take and getting the blitz going and maintaining it.
    u don't want to nerf ranged per sey...............how about indirect methods? Mob IA? make kiting harder? Special attacks, knockdowns and slows that they can do at ranged, though they already have some slow archers those are annoying. Give even melee mobs brutal throw and some gnarly throwers that can dish out the hurt, haha yes I know most likely impossible to code but it would be ironic if there are mobs that its actually better to melee as they do more damage when you make them switch to range. Moar teleporting mobs that target ranged and casting toons first? Dispelling arrows?

    I don't know but a straight up nerf er........whatever.

  6. #6

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    I respect your opinion.
    Are you sure your conclusions are correct?

    Multiplication of ranged, could be due to casters wanting variety,
    or lack of players building quality tanks, or lack of quality divines.

    Inherently, ranged toons are more likely to be self sufficient,
    and less dependant upon tanking techniques.

    There is a great deal of strategy to be made with a ranged toon,
    even more than a tactical crowd control melee might make.


    In an EE Fall of Truth raid group forming up, finding an actual tank
    who can stand up to the Truthful One is rare, and these players
    are in high demand. If one cannot go toe to toe with the truthful one,
    what other choices are there?

    Should we nerf ranged combat, would there not the possibility of an increase in sorcerers?
    Balance is a delicate thing.

    Epic Destiny Past Lives may see an increase in Tank in due time.
    The favors of the month come and go, do they not?

  7. #7
    Community Member NexEverto's Avatar
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    How about we just let people enjoy their characters and not dictate how others play?

    Bow Combat (Not to be confused with Ranged Combat, which includes spells) is still a fair way off the DPS levels of Melee Combat regardless. At the very core of damage, Ranged Attack speed is still far behind Melees. On a BAB 25 Melee character you're looking at ~88 attacks per minute, compared to a BAB 25 Bow and Thrown character's ~59 per minute. The only easy thing about Bow Combat is the ability to run in circles to avoid damage, which can hardly be considered lazy (though it can be considered one of my personal pet-peeves).
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  8. #8
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    these days when you think of building ranged you think of Monk. you can build a top dps ranged mixed build but Ranger is at best a couple levels. you don't see ranged Kensei or rarely see a Follower of the Silver Flame FVS or Paladin. it seems everything is better with Monk levels. Teh Troll really does have it right about Monks.

  9. #9
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    u don't want to nerf ranged per sey...............how about indirect methods? Mob IA? make kiting harder? Special attacks, knockdowns and slows that they can do at ranged, though they already have some slow archers those are annoying. Give even melee mobs brutal throw and some gnarly throwers that can dish out the hurt, haha yes I know most likely impossible to code but it would be ironic if there are mobs that its actually better to melee as they do more damage when you make them switch to range. Moar teleporting mobs that target ranged and casting toons first? Dispelling arrows?

    I don't know but a straight up nerf er........whatever.
    This is really the solution the game needs, and I wish the devs would have spent time working on the AI instead of readjusting the combat mechanics system and half of the other cockamamie changes they've made over the last two years that have neither benefited the game, nor accomplished what they sought to do.

    Archery is in a good place right now: it has enough DPS and enough options that it isn't a waste of a party slot to be purely ranged, you no longer must build your character to be able to swap to melee when Manyshot is off-timer.

    You're seeing more archery characters for a few reasons:
    1. Archery DPS is no longer the worst in the game.
    2. Arcane Archer got fleshed out to be not only strong, but kind of interesting, as did Deepwood Stalker (archery previously had no active attacks other than Manyshot, then Ten Thousand Stars, and the pitiful Sniper Shot from the old DWS, which was rather dull).
    3. People like playing archers (Aragorn and Legolas are popular, and there have been many others through history and fantasy).
    4. The metagame has skewed to place even more emphasis on BYOH than ever before and non-casters have really poor options for self-healing, so melees get torn up fairly easily in many groups/while soloing, while archers mitigate some of that with distance.

    I'll say that I'm more delighted in the changes that support archery with the enhancement pass than I am for any of my other characters. The second character I made, after my original paladin tank, was a ranger/1 rogue/1 fighter archer, and I was constantly frustrated at how poor he performed, and annoyed that I was forced to wade into melee (and at the time, he was not well-suited for that at all).

    Other things that probably need changing:
    • Manyshot needs to be weakened a bit. I know, I know. But it really is much too big a spike in damage when you get to 4 arrows, and especially when combined with things like Slaying Arrows and Adrenaline. Even just remove procs from applying to any arrows after the first would probably be reasonable. Manyshot in D&D proper isn't supposed to be able to crit on the additional arrows, nor apply sneak attack damage to them, and DDO probably needs to mimic that somehow.
    • Improved Precise Shot should probably be tweaked in the same way, only applying those affects to the first target struck.
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  10. #10
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NexEverto View Post
    How about we just let people enjoy their characters and not dictate how others play?

    Bow Combat (Not to be confused with Ranged Combat, which includes spells) is still a fair way off the DPS levels of Melee Combat regardless. At the very core of damage, Ranged Attack speed is still far behind Melees. On a BAB 25 Melee character you're looking at ~88 attacks per minute, compared to a BAB 25 Bow and Thrown character's ~59 per minute. The only easy thing about Bow Combat is the ability to run in circles to avoid damage, which can hardly be considered lazy (though it can be considered one of my personal pet-peeves).
    But I like having some influence on how others play!!! Hjeal me!!!


    anyway thats why i suggested an IA change or increase to the mobs, they are so dumb and limited that allows for run in circles to avoid damage easily.

  11. #11
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    ranged used to suck. No seriously it sucked, it was so bad, hell even many shot wasn't great. I mean it wasn't even worth building just for burst. Then it was for burst (helves angel) Then through some miracle some dev got it in there head to say... you know, it seems like people don't wanna put the bow down. (boom 10k stars, bs if you think that change was anything other then arrow based)

    And now with all these lil clickable mana buttons from flaming, to slayer, to sniper attacks, to shirardi CC, ranged is actually pretty damn fun. Even without adrenalin. Can't tell you how many times I saved goofy melee's in epic elite with some quick cc and burst dmg. It's a long way off from an axe wielding monk chopping everything down in sight in seconds time though.

    Well except in a epic moment. that's pretty beastly.
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  12. #12
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    We don't need to go back to the days where ranged toons can't get into difficult raids because their DPS is too low. Ranged DPS is still behind melee dps, but they are viable now. Why take that away?
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  13. #13
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Nah, they should nerf manyshot, make 10k stars only apply to shuriken, get rid of rapid shot, then buff ranged attack speed by 20%.

  14. #14
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    ...archers focus should have their dps increased...DDO is rewarding this lazy play. Melee play has gotten much better because melee skill is getting rewarded, but for some reason this lazy ranged play is getting rewarded. Turbine fix that please.
    Archer's Focus is the stance where you stand still and your damage increases. This is the solution to fixing "lazy play?"

    These are never anything more than thinly veiled troll posts surrounded by a few lines of weak reasoning used to disguise the true nature of the post. What was the last one; "Let's get rid of Epic Hard?"

    Moving on.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 12-07-2013 at 11:53 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    What that means is that a player should work and move to get improved precise shot as much as possible and muli targets lined up when they want to do improved precise shot and then they have to actively switch to archers focus when fighting the boss for more dps on that boss.
    As opposed to what? This is what good archers do now. What are you seeing archers do? And is that in EH content, or EE? I know that on my archer, the only time I have Archer's Focus on instead of IPS is when I'm facing a mob with a lot of HP (that isn't moving towards me and hitting hard) and without minions, or, if it does have friends, they are being taken care of by a caster. So, predominantly boss fights, but not even in all of those, because if I have to run, no point in having AF on. The rest of the time, I'm always circling a bit to try and line up at least two creatures for IPS, if not more. Most of the time that I use Adrenaline outside of boss fights, it's only when I have at least two creatures lined up.

    I was in one EE Tor party where a couple of people wondered if the caster's DCs were so good that they were instakilling two or three mobs regularly with Circle of Death or something, and I told them that, no, it was me lining up a double or triple kill with Adrenaline and a Slaying Arrow (and Manyshot or 10K Stars).

    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post

    These are never anything more than thinly veiled troll posts surrounded by a few lines of weak reasoning used to disguise the true nature of the post. What was the last one; "Let's get rid of Epic Hard?"
    While I generally agree with your point, I think you could have used a better example--they really should get rid of Epic Hard if they aren't going to adjust it.
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  16. #16
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    As opposed to what? This is what good archers do now. What are you seeing archers do? And is that in EH content, or EE? I know that on my archer, the only time I have Archer's Focus on instead of IPS is when I'm facing a mob with a lot of HP (that isn't moving towards me and hitting hard) and without minions, or, if it does have friends, they are being taken care of by a caster. So, predominantly boss fights, but not even in all of those, because if I have to run, no point in having AF on. The rest of the time, I'm always circling a bit to try and line up at least two creatures for IPS, if not more. Most of the time that I use Adrenaline outside of boss fights, it's only when I have at least two creatures lined up.

    .
    Most archers are not that skilled and rather lousy. Just saying.
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  17. #17
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Most archers are not that skilled and rather lousy. Just saying.
    In what content?

    What do most melees do? Turn on auto-attack, or hold the attack button, run up to something, hit an activated ability now and then... You probably just notice the archers more either because you're looking for that behavior (or something to justify your sense that archery needs adjusting), or because it's just more apparent since melees are going to often be just standing in front of something swinging a weapon without an outward display of skill a lot of the time. That's especially true since it's rather challenging to avoid even telegraphed attacks in this game, and rarely worth the effort and DPS loss--it's usually better to just heal through or kill faster.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Drak's Avatar
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    Why play ranged ?

    imho it is not that ranged is better dps.

    it IS because in EE everything hits like a freight train. Being ranged mitigates this somewhat.

    To reverse the trend the mobs dps must be toned down. that is all.
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  19. #19
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    It has taken Turbine at least 2 years to gently bump ranged up into respectable levels. It's not the time to start talking nerfs, Per Se or otherwise. Ranged play carries it's own advantages and disadvantages like any other class/multi/build/style/whatever. Besides, the boom you're seeing to ranged builds will last only as long as the Flavor of the Month-ers' attention span. Most of them will soon be back to building Juggs and Thugs and Cleridonkificers in no time.

    No Devs, you do not need to start messing with Ranged at this time.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    It has taken Turbine at least 2 years to gently bump ranged up into respectable levels. It's not the time to start talking nerfs, Per Se or otherwise. Ranged play carries it's own advantages and disadvantages like any other class/multi/build/style/whatever. Besides, the boom you're seeing to ranged builds will last only as long as the Flavor of the Month-ers' attention span. Most of them will soon be back to building Juggs and Thugs and Cleridonkificers in no time.

    No Devs, you do not need to start messing with Ranged at this time.
    This.

    1. Just being a non-caster ranged with a pinion does not automatically mean "easy". Yes you can hit crits of 15k, but not all the time. And it takes very good timing. And knowing how to play it well.
    2. In many situations, say where you are getting mobbed on all sides by 10 shadows you can barely see, in close quarters with no one to give you breathing room, ranged is at a decisive disadvantage.
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