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  1. #121
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    But that is not bad at all Chai. Endgame toons need to be built with a base class frame plus past lives and the last bit are destinies. Nobody needs a blitzing 10k dmg per crit melee in old content. But in epic elite you do. One thing reolves into the other.
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  2. #122
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    I think they should change fury epic moment so it only applies to one arrow, not an entire group of arrows when manyshotting.

    from the wiki: "Every three seconds, for thirty seconds, you gain Adrenaline Overload: Your next attack deals +400% damage and has +16 critical threat range and confirmation of critical hits"

    To me an attack means "ONE" attack. As in one arrow, one swing, ect. It does not make sense to me that archers essentially get 3 free adrenaline charges during a group of 4 manyshot arrows.

    This is how I always thought it was supposed to work, I always thought when MoTU went live this was not WAI. But they haven't fixed it yet and as far as I know they have never come out and ever said furyshot is WAI, so I still personally think it is not WAI.

    Furyshot is just so insanely strong, I feel like the devs must have overlooked it. Never from any dev comment pre or post MoTU did I ever get the impression that they intended to give archers such an insanely huge buff.

    I think what happened is only sometime after MoTU hit did they begin to realize the power of this combination have just been delaying doing anything about it until absolutely necessary because they know how many players are going to be screaming if they implement a nerf.
    Last edited by axel15810; 12-09-2013 at 12:42 PM.

  3. #123
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    Utilizing a system to make a very powerful build is the cornerstone of customization in every rpg that allows it.

    Ranged is inherently stronger than melee due to being out of range for incoming damage. To compensate, they do less per hit, and attack slower than melee.

    In DDO, you can burst dps with ranged and do a lot. However, you can do the same in melee and with spells. So I don't see a problem.

    4+ years of asking for better ranged; when they get it, these balance requests come up. LOL
    Yes, we asked for better ranged but we didn't ask for better ranged for builds like Monkcher. Nobody was making builds like that until the enhancement pass and EDs came out. Remember all the talk about how Rangers were getting declined in groups because of their lack of DPS and some considered Ranger ranged combat to be sub par? People did try out different ranged builds but couldn't be happy with them. I think the old crit rage ranged barbarians were the last good ranged build. That got nerfed and than came along Monkchers.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    it's because Turbine doesn't know how to balance stuff.
    Maybe they're still learning...

    If i haven't responded to your post, it doesn't necessarily mean that i don't have counter-arguments, it might simply mean that i don't want to keep feeding the trolls.
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  5. #125
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
    But that is not bad at all Chai. Endgame toons need to be built with a base class frame plus past lives and the last bit are destinies. Nobody needs a blitzing 10k dmg per crit melee in old content. But in epic elite you do. One thing reolves into the other.
    A first life toon in synergizing ED is more powerful than anything not in an ED with completionist. Players can roll through EEs with first life shiradi arcanes. The platform prior to EDs matters far less than having a full ED does.

    Its not "the last little bit is EDs" as EDs make even the most hilarious builds do EE viable damage.

    EDs are the 800 pound gorilla in the middle of the room no one wants to talk about, so they push their personal agendas regarding certain playstyles instead. Ite the EDs that overpower everything. Not ranged, and not melee.

    The fact that we "need" (more like desire) heavy hitting toons with multiplied damage in EE shows us how much arbitrary multipliers to damage have unbalanced the game. Ive seen numerous threads about how EE is very different from EH and EN, but none of them point to the real cause. EE is the one balanced for being in full destiny. Eds are the single biggest increase to character power. No one wants this addressed however, but they want to take your "lazy archery" away, which is nothing more than a personal agenda.
    Last edited by Chai; 12-09-2013 at 01:31 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #126
    Community Member Panzermeyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do not want a nerf to ranged per say, but I have noticed a trend in DDO of more and more ranged characters and less and less melee characters. A big reason for this is because ranged combat has become too easy.
    It is not because ranged has become too easy.

    It is because end game with the borked AC, melee has become so hard.

    Don't nerf ranged, fixed AC and melee.
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  7. #127
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    from the wiki: "Every three seconds, for thirty seconds, you gain Adrenaline Overload: Your next attack deals +400% damage and has +16 critical threat range and confirmation of critical hits"

    To me an attack means "ONE" attack. As in one arrow, one swing, ect.
    Firing 4 arrows at once IS one attack (despite what you're seeing in the combat log).
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  8. #128
    Community Member Dreppo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    I think they should change fury epic moment so it only applies to one arrow, not an entire group of arrows when manyshotting.

    from the wiki: "Every three seconds, for thirty seconds, you gain Adrenaline Overload: Your next attack deals +400% damage and has +16 critical threat range and confirmation of critical hits"

    To me an attack means "ONE" attack. As in one arrow, one swing, ect. It does not make sense to me that archers essentially get 3 free adrenaline charges during a group of 4 manyshot arrows.
    From the wiki:

    Manyshot:
    "This feat enables the character to fire multiple arrows with every bow attack he makes for the next 20 seconds. [...]"

    It's one attack that fires multiple arrows. The ranged toon has knocked several arrows onto the bowstring, drawn back, and fired. One attack.

    Having said that, I'm of the opinion that Fury should be changed to not work with ranged at all.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzermeyer View Post
    It is not because ranged has become too easy.

    It is because end game with the borked AC, melee has become so hard.

    Don't nerf ranged, fixed AC and melee.
    Most melee still wouldn't have an AC worth having though. I think it'sjust the damage is too high.

  10. #130
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    I think it'sjust the damage is too high.
    Yup.

    Ranged isn't the problem, ranged in the solution. The problem is mobs just hit too damned hard. The solution to that is don't get hit. Ranged is the best option for not getting hit.

    I think Turbine will resolve this by nerfing bards.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Yup.

    Ranged isn't the problem, ranged in the solution. The problem is mobs just hit too damned hard. The solution to that is don't get hit. Ranged is the best option for not getting hit.

    I think Turbine will resolve this by nerfing bards again.
    Fix'd

  12. #132

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    Just because you made your character look like Aragorn or Legolas doesn't mean that you will have gameplay equivalency to Aragorn.

    I've seen very powerful melees. The best ones overall are Paladins that, while absorbing so much damage while dealing out a respectable amount, are nearly indestructible. I've seen some archers, monks and even barbarians that could put others to shame.

    Two cardinal principles of DDO are broken by the OP and many players:

    Never presume that DPS is all that there is in gameplay.
    Never presume that people with a specific build or fighting type will be superior or inferior, just because they play one style.


    We can give a typical player the "best" or popular survivable melee build out there. Likewise, we could do the same for a ranged character.

    But either build, in the hands of the inexperienced or impatient, will result in a poor player. Poor ranged characters fire indiscriminately and bring death on themselves, no matter if they have great enhancements or EDs or not. Even the poor player levels if they PuG with someone or something willing to heal them.

    The OP, in my opinion, is merely seeing more people who (after getting their buns roasted for poor ranged play) have learned how to play them and then to maximize damage without threatening themselves or their party to silly levels. And the game now provides decent damage options that don't compare to a melee's burst damage but offer great sustained damage. Anything else going on is just min-maxing, which isn't common for every player and does take some understanding to "exploit."

    Maximizing damage means you must also know how not to die when what you shot at comes hunting you. With Improved Precise Shot often aggroing many, many enemies simultaneously, the experienced player knows when and when not to use this ability to keep both himself and the party alive.

    Another point: A perfect ranged character is going to die without sufficient room to strafe or kite. That's one limitation. Melees balance this out and well.
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  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Yup.

    Ranged isn't the problem, ranged in the solution. The problem is mobs just hit too damned hard. The solution to that is don't get hit. Ranged is the best option for not getting hit.

    I think Turbine will resolve this by nerfing bards.
    Nerf Bards?

    Let's just eat 'em like the Minstrels of old, to return to us much rejoicing.
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  14. #134
    Community Member Raoull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Firing 4 arrows at once IS one attack (despite what you're seeing in the combat log).
    So is a cleave, yet last I checked Adrenaline effects did not work on every target hit by a cleave.
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  15. #135
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoull View Post
    So is a cleave, yet last I checked Adrenaline effects did not work on every target hit by a cleave.
    Fixing that might have made my THF bard more powerful, so they left that alone.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #136
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Firing 4 arrows at once IS one attack (despite what you're seeing in the combat log).
    Well, if we want to go back to the source material, Manyshot isn't supposed to apply precision damage (sneak attack, being the most common) or critical hits to the additional arrows in a Manyshot. That adjustment probably would have allowed us to see improvements to archery long ago, and would make things like Adrenaline Overload much less ridiculous now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Yup.

    Ranged isn't the problem, ranged in the solution. The problem is mobs just hit too damned hard. The solution to that is don't get hit. Ranged is the best option for not getting hit.

    I think Turbine will resolve this by nerfing bards.
    Making AC worthwhile would have helped a bit. Giving some characters (barbarians and non-SD fighters, non-Defender paladins) better PRR would help.

    Nerfing bards always helps.
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  17. #137
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoull View Post
    So is a cleave, yet last I checked Adrenaline effects did not work on every target hit by a cleave.
    Correct, it only affects 1 target.

  18. #138
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Making AC worthwhile would have helped a bit. Giving some characters (barbarians and non-SD fighters, non-Defender paladins) better PRR would help.
    No, making AC viable in EEs ascends monks into god-mode. This doesn't fix stuff.

    The whole defensive system needs an enema . . . but for now just lower the mob damage so being a melee just isn't a bad idea.

  19. #139
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    I've seen very powerful melees. The best ones overall are Paladins that, while absorbing so much damage while dealing out a respectable amount, are nearly indestructible. I've seen some archers, monks and even barbarians that could put others to shame.
    I stopped reading after the above. Do you even play DDO?

    And if so . . . above casual?

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    Just because you made your character look like Aragorn or Legolas doesn't mean that you will have gameplay equivalency to Aragorn.

    I've seen very powerful melees. The best ones overall are Paladins that, while absorbing so much damage while dealing out a respectable amount, are nearly indestructible. I've seen some archers, monks and even barbarians that could put others to shame.

    Two cardinal principles of DDO are broken by the OP and many players:

    Never presume that DPS is all that there is in gameplay.
    Never presume that people with a specific build or fighting type will be superior or inferior, just because they play one style.


    We can give a typical player the "best" or popular survivable melee build out there. Likewise, we could do the same for a ranged character.

    But either build, in the hands of the inexperienced or impatient, will result in a poor player. Poor ranged characters fire indiscriminately and bring death on themselves, no matter if they have great enhancements or EDs or not. Even the poor player levels if they PuG with someone or something willing to heal them.

    The OP, in my opinion, is merely seeing more people who (after getting their buns roasted for poor ranged play) have learned how to play them and then to maximize damage without threatening themselves or their party to silly levels. And the game now provides decent damage options that don't compare to a melee's burst damage but offer great sustained damage. Anything else going on is just min-maxing, which isn't common for every player and does take some understanding to "exploit."

    Maximizing damage means you must also know how not to die when what you shot at comes hunting you. With Improved Precise Shot often aggroing many, many enemies simultaneously, the experienced player knows when and when not to use this ability to keep both himself and the party alive.

    Another point: A perfect ranged character is going to die without sufficient room to strafe or kite. That's one limitation. Melees balance this out and well.

    I call bull. So much bull. It's like how fury on a melee is more survivable than unyielding, because superior offense and the instant knockdown beat mediocre defense abilities, so too do kensei abilities provide more survivability to fighters than paladins mediocre defenses. Paladins make a good 2 splash. And a good 4 splash if you don't want to waste a twist (Some people think even 4 is too much, but I can understand not wanting to use a twist for divine might).

    The only thing you could have said that would make me call bull faster is saying "the best melee is barbarian". But then I probably would have just had a coronary, or assumed Shade was back... which probably would have had the same end result.

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