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  1. #241
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Depends. Does that new pack have well built content with replay value or is it a bunch of NPCs who will ask you for shards to complete quest objectives and more power creep oriented gear?
    And 3bc has all that, hm?
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  2. #242
    Community Member HongKongKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    Well, personally, I love Three Barrel Cove. I make sure to run it on every one of my characters, even on their first life. So, I am very excited to see 3BC getting the epic treatment. No reason pirates, ogres, and kobolds can't be epic enemies.
    Agreed. Hit the nail of the head.
    Quote Originally Posted by totalmir View Post
    I like this thread,it breaks the monotony of my day.
    Quote Originally Posted by PuppiesAndRainbows View Post
    Kobold make a wonderful satisfying crunch sound when killed; you can't kill just one.

    Vampires scream ranks up there with kobold crunch for satisfying slays.

  3. #243
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    And 3bc has all that, hm?
    We'll see. If I had to put money on it, Id say it will likely be the same quests, with a few minor twists a la all other Eberron epics that were heroic a long time before they were epic, with epic stat inflation and the loot will be best in game for some slots which will be the main attraction.

    Quests will include:

    Old Grey Stat Inflated Garl
    The Troglodytes' Get Insane Saves
    Legend of Four Hundred Thousand HP Tobias
    Prove Your DPS
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #244
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    We'll see. If I had to put money on it, Id say it will likely be the same quests, with a few minor twists a la all other Eberron epics that were heroic a long time before they were epic, with epic stat inflation and the loot will be best in game for some slots which will be the main attraction.

    Quests will include:

    Old Grey Stat Inflated Garl
    The Troglodytes' Get Insane Saves
    Legend of Four Hundred Thousand HP Tobias
    Prove Your DPS
    BAsically my question was: Is there something that you dont consider p2w in advance.

    But the answer given is true for 99% of epics.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  5. #245
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    BAsically my question was: Is there something that you dont consider p2w in advance.

    But the answer given is true for 99% of epics.
    Already answered that. Does that new pack have well built content with replay value or is it a bunch of NPCs who will ask you for shards to complete quest objectives and more power creep oriented gear?

    Content focus.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #246
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Already answered that. Does that new pack have well built content with replay value or is it a bunch of NPCs who will ask you for shards to complete quest objectives and more power creep oriented gear?

    Content focus.
    Nah, you more or less said that e3bc was a moneygrab as well. Thats what i find amusing. VIPs would get for free, a lot fo people already have it. It would cost only for those that didnt want it before, but do want it now. Which doesnt sound like much of a moneygrab to me.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  7. #247
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Nah, you more or less said that e3bc was a moneygrab as well. Thats what i find amusing. VIPs would get for free, a lot fo people already have it. It would cost only for those that didnt want it before, but do want it now. Which doesnt sound like much of a moneygrab to me.
    Nope, what I stated is it was a financial decision based on less people owning the content than owning other better choices for epic content.

    So state a more solid premise then for why they went with 3bc even though the majority of the feedback for what should be epiced provided was for content that had raids like shroud, vod, hound, titan, or even tod. What seperates 3bc from the rest of that stuff. Ive already got dibs on "more people haven't bought it compared to those other packs, so theres more potential sales" so what is a more solid premise than that for this business?
    Last edited by Chai; 12-27-2013 at 07:50 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #248
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    So state a more solid premise then for why they went with 3bc even though the majority of the feedback for what should be epiced provided was for content that had raids like shroud, vod, hound, titan, or even tod. What seperates 3bc from the rest of that stuff. Ive already got dibs on "more people haven't bought it compared to those other packs, so theres more potential sales" so what is a more solid premise than that for this business?
    Shroud: Making greensteel epic would make it far too popular, and cut into sales of later packs.

    restless isles: Everybody and their cousin has proclaimed a hatred for it.

    Subterrane: Too short to make any lasting impact, except for explorer

    ToD: Too close to epic as it is, and unfinished to boot

    3bc: Several quests, so itll keep the "i dont have anything to do" crowd quiet for a while. A large explorer that can have a lot of stuff added for a snallish effort. SOmething that is within the reach of new players, so theyll be more likely to buy it. Old players have complained that its at the wrong level, which this will fix to a certain degree. Several people have proclaimed it a nice area, if they only had the time to play it at level, which they now will have. etc, etc, etc.

    If that is not enough i can keep on inventing new ones, but as i am at work i ran out of time.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  9. #249
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Shroud: Making greensteel epic would make it far too popular, and cut into sales of later packs.

    restless isles: Everybody and their cousin has proclaimed a hatred for it.

    Subterrane: Too short to make any lasting impact, except for explorer

    ToD: Too close to epic as it is, and unfinished to boot

    3bc: Several quests, so itll keep the "i dont have anything to do" crowd quiet for a while. A large explorer that can have a lot of stuff added for a snallish effort. SOmething that is within the reach of new players, so theyll be more likely to buy it. Old players have complained that its at the wrong level, which this will fix to a certain degree. Several people have proclaimed it a nice area, if they only had the time to play it at level, which they now will have. etc, etc, etc.

    If that is not enough i can keep on inventing new ones, but as i am at work i ran out of time.
    Nope.

    Shroud is already half done or so, as they worked on it a long time ago with eGH. It is the single best rewards system ever put into the game and would have the longest impact.

    restless isles has had more feedback around here to make epic than 3bc has.

    Subterrane is a great place to make some new quests. An entire slayer zone with 2 raids and no quests.

    You think tod is too close to epic as it is? We have 2 raids that were very popular when they were endgame in both epic and heroic that already fit that bill that prove this is not a deterrant for people to play it. LOB and MA. You say its unfinished? That's even more of a reason in favor of TOD to do some work there. It was very popular and actually has an epic feel.

    None of those premise refute the business decision premise. I see a lot of people attempting to deny what Ive been saying on this, and none of them presenting a premise that refutes it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #250
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope.

    Shroud is already half done or so, as they worked on it a long time ago with eGH. It is the single best rewards system ever put into the game and would have the longest impact.

    restless isles has had more feedback around here to make epic than 3bc has.

    Subterrane is a great place to make some new quests. An entire slayer zone with 2 raids and no quests.

    You think tod is too close to epic as it is? We have 2 raids that were very popular when they were endgame in both epic and heroic that already fit that bill that prove this is not a deterrant for people to play it. LOB and MA. You say its unfinished? That's even more of a reason in favor of TOD to do some work there. It was very popular and actually has an epic feel.

    None of those premise refute the business decision premise. I see a lot of people attempting to deny what Ive been saying on this, and none of them presenting a premise that refutes it.
    Ah, we bith see thinsg from differing perspectives. Whos to say what perspective was used in making the decision to make 3bc epic. Not you, and not I. Neither of our viewpoints can be used to refute the other, since the facts are just as real on both sides. You cant really refute my points, and i cant really refute yours. Both are a matter of perspective and taste.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  11. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Nah, you more or less said that e3bc was a moneygrab as well. Thats what i find amusing. VIPs would get for free, a lot fo people already have it. It would cost only for those that didnt want it before, but do want it now. Which doesnt sound like much of a moneygrab to me.
    I don't know what dev said it, but the shard teleport from the xpack will be back in the 'new' content. So 3BC will get the shard teleport. That scheme is here to stay. Lets hope they also add the 'camps' that at least brings us closer to the quests.

  12. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Shroud: Making greensteel epic would make it far too popular, and cut into sales of later packs.

    restless isles: Everybody and their cousin has proclaimed a hatred for it.

    Subterrane: Too short to make any lasting impact, except for explorer

    ToD: Too close to epic as it is, and unfinished to boot

    3bc: Several quests, so itll keep the "i dont have anything to do" crowd quiet for a while. A large explorer that can have a lot of stuff added for a snallish effort. SOmething that is within the reach of new players, so theyll be more likely to buy it. Old players have complained that its at the wrong level, which this will fix to a certain degree. Several people have proclaimed it a nice area, if they only had the time to play it at level, which they now will have. etc, etc, etc.

    If that is not enough i can keep on inventing new ones, but as i am at work i ran out of time.
    Epic shroud would add end content life. It's still a more run raid then anything of late. It wouldn't take away anything from new packs but add a reason to log in every 3 days.
    I agree with restless isles. It's a terrible wilderness and boring quests. I doubt that would be a good idea to make Epic. I certainly wouldn't play the raid.

    Subt - do it. Adding 2 more end content raids is a smart thing. Add a smart scheme of converting the 'heroic' items to epic - via a unlock progress as suppose to remake those items into new epic EN, EH and EE ones. That way people will run heroic (if they don't have the item already) to get it then the Epic to slowly unlock. Plus it adds new sources for heroic comms. It would breath new life into 2 dead raids and they could bring that old content up to snuff. A much better and easier choice to add more end content raids. Plus making subt wilderness 'epic' would add back some challenge and a reason to collect mats again for those new huge bags (or - to add some dreamin' a new way to unlock some more slots by turning in these epic mats).

    ToD - this one is a no brainier. They released almost all enhancement systems so it's time to redo and release the new rings for it. This would clearly make the rings and the belts useful gear in epic content, as suppose to used between 18-19 and then phased out for other goodies.

    Chai got it right - 3BC is a small group favorite and mostly ignored. I agree that it's better to push the content up to about 10-13 instead then to make it epic. But the reason for making it epic is one money - rather then what most people want.

  13. #253
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Ah, we bith see thinsg from differing perspectives. Whos to say what perspective was used in making the decision to make 3bc epic. Not you, and not I. Neither of our viewpoints can be used to refute the other, since the facts are just as real on both sides. You cant really refute my points, and i cant really refute yours. Both are a matter of perspective and taste.
    When its obvious why this decision was made, I point it out. What the players want and what Turbine believes to be financially sound are two different things. The amount of feedback provided over the years for what should be made epic by players does not coincide with what is happening, and the financial premise explains exactly why that is. No other premise posted does. The personal argument about perspective and taste doesnt work here because my observations are not personal in nature. If people are going to attempt to tell me im wrong, they need to pony up with the right answer. I dont believe this is possible here because obvious financial decision is obvious. Turbine actually did follow the feedback over the years previously before switching it up when the focus of profit changed. This is why GH and Shroud both had work done to make them epic as far back as 2010.
    Last edited by Chai; 12-27-2013 at 09:06 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #254
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    When its obvious why this decision was made, I point it out. What the players want and what Turbine believes to be financially sound are two different things. The amount of feedback provided over the years for what should be made epic by players does not coincide with what is happening, and the financial premise explains exactly why that is. No other premise posted does. The personal argument about perspective and taste doesnt work here because my observations are not personal in nature. If people are going to attempt to tell me im wrong, they need to pony up with the right answer. I dont believe this is possible here because obvious financial decision is obvious. Turbine actually did follow the feedback over the years previously before switching it up when the focus of profit changed. This is why GH and Shroud both had work done to make them epic as far back as 2010.
    It may be obvious to you, but it might not have been the reason the decision was made. You DO have a mindset that shows one thing to be true every time, no matter what the fact s nobody around knows are.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  15. #255
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Personally I hate 3BC and rarely go there on any of my builds. Oh well....I guess thats how it rolls.
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  16. #256
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    It may be obvious to you, but it might not have been the reason the decision was made.
    People want to deny my premise, but cannot because its correct. When challenged to come up with the real reason, they start talking about how nobody can possibly know, which is incorrect when its this obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    You DO have a mindset that shows one thing to be true every time, no matter what the fact s nobody around knows are.
    Not true. people read into everything I say this way, but thats not what was said. A good example is you stating I said it was a money grab, when I never said that. If people would read what is posted and reply to it, rather than interpret what was posted in the worst possible way before replying, these discussions would be alot more realistic. They would also be alot more boring and alot less popcorn consumption would occur.
    Last edited by Chai; 12-27-2013 at 09:57 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #257
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    When its obvious why this decision was made, I point it out. What the players want and what Turbine believes to be financially sound are two different things. The amount of feedback provided over the years for what should be made epic by players does not coincide with what is happening, and the financial premise explains exactly why that is. No other premise posted does.

    Chai, you might be right... but you are also not acknowledging the other possibility I raised a few pages back: that they made 3BC epic because it was easy to do so (I'm not praising the inevitable lazy epic stat inflation approach that logically will result, I want to be clear on that), and that by producing more content to run in those levels (with epic loot) it therefore buys them some time to get the promised raids put together.

    If that is the reason, I can not only understand it, but appreciate it too. I'd rather have the new raids right than rushed, and I'd rather have lazy epic 3BC than, say, lazy epic Shroud or Titan. I want those to get a proper workover. I also want 3BC to get a proper workover but I have my doubts, I think it'll be the bad old heroic>epic-conversion approach. But if the reason is 'keep 'em busy so we can get this new stuff done right' then I can live with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The best of the best DDO players generally overperform when given a real challenge

  18. #258
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    People want to deny my premise, but cannot because its correct. When challenged to come up with the real reason, they start talking about how nobody can possibly know, which is incorrect when its this obvious.



    Not true. people read into everything I say this way, but thats not what was said. A good example is you stating I said it was a money grab, when I never said that. If people would read what is posted and reply to it, rather than interpret what was posted in the worst possible way before replying, these discussions would be alot more realistic. They would also be alot more boring and alot less popcorn consumption would occur.
    Being certain is the best way to make me trust your statement. Only the ignorant are adamant. And that is the reason for the second part as well. Be just a bit less certain, and people will trust you more. (except for the ignorant, they will or wont trust you no matter how you come across).

    I said that you as good as said. By which i mean that you were so certain that they chose it in order to sell more. Dont get offended so easily, i didnt mean any attack by what i said. Just saying that we really cant know, and its obvious only if you wish it to be.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  19. #259
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunklezhan View Post
    Chai, you might be right... but you are also not acknowledging the other possibility I raised a few pages back: that they made 3BC epic because it was easy to do so (I'm not praising the inevitable lazy epic stat inflation approach that logically will result, I want to be clear on that), and that by producing more content to run in those levels (with epic loot) it therefore buys them some time to get the promised raids put together.

    If that is the reason, I can not only understand it, but appreciate it too. I'd rather have the new raids right than rushed, and I'd rather have lazy epic 3BC than, say, lazy epic Shroud or Titan. I want those to get a proper workover. I also want 3BC to get a proper workover but I have my doubts, I think it'll be the bad old heroic>epic-conversion approach. But if the reason is 'keep 'em busy so we can get this new stuff done right' then I can live with it.
    I can see that, but if thats the case, then its easy to make anything epic. Just pump the stats and saves of heroic content to unrealistic numbers and voila!! Epic content. The legend of 400,000 HP tobias.

    Your second paragraph is why I think the sub is a great place to epic, becuase it would mean making some quests for that slayer zone rather than simply turning stats from heroic content up to 11 and calling it epic.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #260
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Being certain is the best way to make me trust your statement. Only the ignorant are adamant. And that is the reason for the second part as well. Be just a bit less certain, and people will trust you more. (except for the ignorant, they will or wont trust you no matter how you come across).

    I said that you as good as said. By which i mean that you were so certain that they chose it in order to sell more. Dont get offended so easily, i didnt mean any attack by what i said. Just saying that we really cant know, and its obvious only if you wish it to be.
    distrust was the word. Damnation. Cant edit the text from work...
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

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