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  1. #281
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    As i said, you are not answering anything, youre just being impossible to speak to.
    Im not on the hook to answer to anything I didnt say in the first place. Its not impossible to address what I actually stated, in fact, its quite easy. When that happens, we can have this discussion.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #282
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    That's a possibility. But it's also speculation. You don't know why they left those unfinished. I certainly preferred that they made new content at that time, rather than upgrade old content into Epic. Most who were doing TRs also preferred it, since they needed more xp at mid-levels. The game needed more mid-to-high level quests at that time than they needed more Epic.

    So they killed two birds with one stone by creating new mid-to-high level content that also had an Epic level.
    They left them unfinished to work on the content that we got instead of what was left behind. No speculation required, just some history of what was released and what was not, cross referenced with what was worked on at that time.
    Last edited by Chai; 12-27-2013 at 02:56 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #283
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Im not on the hook to answer to anything I didnt say in the first place. Its not impossible to address what I actually stated, in fact, its quite easy. When that happens, we can have this discussion.
    Man, im not trying to argue with you, or put words in your mouth. Im just saying that what you mean doesnt always come over as you wish it to. And unless you realize that, youll be fighting windmills until the end of days.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  4. #284
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Man, im not trying to argue with you, or put words in your mouth. Im just saying that what you mean doesnt always come over as you wish it to. And unless you realize that, youll be fighting windmills until the end of days.
    Nope. It means what I said and not what anyone else interpreted, and in order to understand this, you need to address what is said. It is as simple as that.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #285
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    They left them unfinished to work on the content that we got instead of what was left behind. No speculation required, just some history of what was released and what was not, cross referenced with what was worked on at that time.
    "Cross-referencing what was worked on with the history of what was released" IS speculation. You are speculating. There is nothing wrong with speculating, but that is what you're doing. What we're all doing.

  6. #286
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    "Cross-referencing what was worked on with the history of what was released" IS speculation. You are speculating. There is nothing wrong with speculating, but that is what you're doing. What we're all doing.
    No its not speculation to say they worked on egh and eshroud in 2010 then released other content while leaving those half completed. it is what happened.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #287
    Community Member Todkaninchen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Sign up for my "How to not be terrible at DDO" course, you need some education.
    Okay, I don't generally run many epic elites and I don't have a completionist character--mostly because I specialize in rogues, artis, and--yes--monks, but how would you know if I were "terrible" at DDO?

    I mean, really?

    I happen to have a somewhat narrow focus on classes, all though I've epiced and TRed things other than rogues, artis, and monks (a bard and a necro archmage), but I'm pretty good at what I choose to do.

    No desire to tank anything, I suck at healing, and casting is fun but more a sometimes food for me. Doesn't mean I'm terrible at DDO.

    So, like, chill dude. There is and has always been more than one way to play Dungeons and Dragons, even Dungeons and Dragons Online and--just because your pet class can't do everything some other six classes can--doesn't mean other classes or people are bad at DDO.

    Although, we've all ran that PUG with someone who just sucks at DDO. You know, 8 or 10 CON on a melee, still wearing the Korthos sets at level 5, handaxe kensais, etc.?

    Then again, there's always that one guy (or girl) who can pull off the silliest build ever...

  8. #288
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No its not speculation to say they worked on egh and eshroud in 2010 then released other content while leaving those half completed. it is what happened.
    The conclusions you are drawing from those facts are speculation. You are speculating that there was a time when Turbine listened to more player feedback.

  9. #289
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    The conclusions you are drawing from those facts are speculation. You are speculating that there was a time when Turbine listened to more player feedback.
    No speculation at all. The feedback was provided that shroud and gh would be desireable epic content, and Turbine got to work on it, then half way through left it unfinished for 2 years in favor of releasing other content. This is what happened, and is not speculation.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #290
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No its not speculation to say they worked on egh and eshroud in 2010 then released other content while leaving those half completed. it is what happened.
    You realize you completely passed over something to make yourself look like you are right, right? I mean, they stated that it was speculation, you said it was done because financial priorities changed right here. Then he said "You are speculating. There is nothing wrong with speculating, but that is what you're doing. What we're all doing.", to which you replied the above.

    YOU ignored the issue he brought up, YOU deflected the real issue. He wasn't saying you were speculating that EGH and EVale were half completed, we knew that already. He was stating that you are speculating the purpose for it being only half finished, why they moved on. You stated it was because of financial changes...yet you have no facts to back that up, merely speculation from what you have garnered from being an observer. You are not employed by Turbine, you are not employed by WB, you do not work on the game. You are an armchair economist at best, and a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist at worst. Yes, another personal attack....I am sure you will make sure to denote that I did that and completely ignore the argument I made that shows that YOU ARE SPECULATING AND HAVE NO VERIFIABLE FACTS TO BACK THEM UP. Unless you sit in on the meetings at Turbine, you have no more FACT to back anything up than we do, because all we have is what we are told...therefore...YOU ARE SPECULATING THE REASONS!

    And yes, you are impossible to talk to.
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  11. #291
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    You realize you completely passed over something to make yourself look like you are right, right? I mean, they stated that it was speculation, you said it was done because financial priorities changed right here. Then he said "You are speculating. There is nothing wrong with speculating, but that is what you're doing. What we're all doing.", to which you replied the above.

    YOU ignored the issue he brought up, YOU deflected the real issue. He wasn't saying you were speculating that EGH and EVale were half completed, we knew that already. He was stating that you are speculating the purpose for it being only half finished, why they moved on. You stated it was because of financial changes...yet you have no facts to back that up, merely speculation from what you have garnered from being an observer. You are not employed by Turbine, you are not employed by WB, you do not work on the game. You are an armchair economist at best, and a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist at worst. Yes, another personal attack....I am sure you will make sure to denote that I did that and completely ignore the argument I made that shows that YOU ARE SPECULATING AND HAVE NO VERIFIABLE FACTS TO BACK THEM UP. Unless you sit in on the meetings at Turbine, you have no more FACT to back anything up than we do, because all we have is what we are told...therefore...YOU ARE SPECULATING THE REASONS!

    And yes, you are impossible to talk to.
    Nope. All of this "you cant possibly know unless you work for turbine" stuff is smoke and mirrors commonly put up after someone attempted to challenge my premise and their argument was torpedoed into hilarity, to the point where they refuse to address what was even quoted from my posts.

    Feedback was provided on this forum that epic shroud and epic gianthold were desired. Verifiable fact
    Turbine did begin working on those into 2010. Verifiable fact.
    Turbine released other content with low level versions and epic versions before releasing epic GH and still havent released epic shroud. Verifiable fact.

    What part of that is speculation again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    And yes, you are impossible to talk to.
    Wrong. its quite easy. Simply address what is quoted rather than carrying on with biased personal rants. If you believe the reason to be incorrect, then state your premise and we can discuss it. If youre simply typing up more personal drama about how someone cant possibly post unless they have assembled the triforce, won a troll off each month, and then obtained permission from three dieties first, Im a pull your card on the smoke and mirrors each time you do this.
    Last edited by Chai; 12-27-2013 at 04:43 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #292
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Nope. All of this "you cant possibly know unless you work for turbine" stuff is smoke and mirrors commonly put up after someone attempted to challenge my premise and their argument was torpedoed into hilarity, to the point where they refuse to address what was even quoted from my posts.

    Feedback was provided on this forum that epic shroud and epic gianthold were desired. Verifiable fact
    Turbine did begin working on those into 2010. Verifiable fact.
    Turbine released other content with low level versions and epic versions before releasing epic GH and still havent released epic shroud. Verifiable fact.

    What part of that is speculation again?
    Again, you dodged the actual issue here. We are not arguing that they started working on those, nor that they stopped and released something else. You said it was done because financial success swayed their opinion. That is the speculation. And you also did just as I said you would....you ignored the part where I refuted your argument and had proven that you are merely speculating, and chose to spin it that I was questioning whether the epic quests were ever being worked on.

    You are speculating that they gave up working on those because of financial reasons. But as you are not privy to their actual intents or reasoning, you are speculating, and nothing more. Stop acting like you know the inner workings of a company or industry you obviously have only ever read about.
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Wrong. its quite easy. Simply address what is quoted rather than carrying on with biased personal rants.
    You roll a '3'. Ad hominem attack!

    Everybody drink!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Yes, we all know you were right back in 2009 before you took an arrow to the knee.
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    I wish there were a way to never see any of your posts.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Stop acting like you know the inner workings of a company or industry you obviously have only ever read about.
    What else would he post about then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient View Post
    Yes, we all know you were right back in 2009 before you took an arrow to the knee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    I wish there were a way to never see any of your posts.

  15. #295
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    Again, you dodged the actual issue here. We are not arguing that they started working on those, nor that they stopped and released something else. You said it was done because financial success swayed their opinion. That is the speculation. And you also did just as I said you would....you ignored the part where I refuted your argument and had proven that you are merely speculating, and chose to spin it that I was questioning whether the epic quests were ever being worked on.

    You are speculating that they gave up working on those because of financial reasons. But as you are not privy to their actual intents or reasoning, you are speculating, and nothing more. Stop acting like you know the inner workings of a company or industry you obviously have only ever read about.
    Knowing the history of the game and when changes occurred is not dodging any issue, nor is it speculating. The game went from sub to f2p months before this was discussed, so saying the financial focus changed is accurate and correct.

    You refuted nothing and are fooling no one, and are only supporting what ive stated on those who are personally biased against my stance continually posting smoke and mirrors rather than discussing the real issue, which you have yet to do....

    And doing so from multiple sock puppet accounts at that.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #296
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaden_freude View Post
    What else would he post about then?
    LOL!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Simply address what is quoted rather than carrying on with biased personal rants.
    I am quoting this post again, for one reason only. I will address what I quoted in the earlier post and will do so without any biased or personal rants.

    In the post I quoted originally, you stated:

    They followed it more closely when they started working on GH and Shroud to make them epic. When the focus of financial success changed, both of those sat half completed for 2+ years while they made more new content.
    We have no factual evidence to prove that. All we have is speculation. We know that in 2010, these two packs were being worked on. We'll call that Fact 1. We also know, that between that time and the release of Epic Gianthold, we had a substantial amount of content that was not EGH or EVale. We'll call that Fact 2.

    So, to summarize, here is what we KNOW for a FACT.

    • Fact 1: Epic Gianthold and Epic Vale were both being worked on in 2010.
    • Fact 2: Epic Gianthold and Epic Vale were both put on hold while new content was created instead, until the release of Epic Gianthold in 2013.


    Now, here is where it gets tricky. You stated this:

    They left them unfinished to work on the content that we got instead of what was left behind. No speculation required, just some history of what was released and what was not, cross referenced with what was worked on at that time.
    ...which is purely speculation. You mention that no speculation is required, just some history of what was released (the content we got between 2010 and 2013) and what was not (Epic Vale, Epic Gianthold until 2013). You then cross-reference that and come to a conclusion. However, that is considered speculation. You are assuming that the reasoning behind it was purely financial, but without having any more facts, unfortunately, there is no way to know for sure.

    The issue is you are claiming it to be 100% verifiable fact that it was done just for financial reasons, which would be an educated assumption based on previous track records. The company in question has made several decisions that would make one assume it does so based on financial reasoning. However, without a statement from the company, without a dev response, without looking at purchase histories, sales charts, financial earnings, there is no way to know if that is the reason behind the decision. The best you can do is speculate.

    Again, that speculation could indeed be accurate. I would even lean towards the "it is" side of the argument, putting us on the same side. However, without any further evidence outside of Fact 1 and Fact 2, we are left with nothing more than speculation.
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  17. #297
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    And doing so from multiple sock puppet accounts at that.
    Sorry, I only have two forum accounts. This one, and the one tied to my game account that I used to post from, but it was locked out with the whole forum change fiasco and I could never get it to login.
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  18. #298
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    We have no factual evidence to prove that.
    You dont, but you can only speak for yourself. You dont get to speak for what others know or dont know. This is the major flaw with folks who demand factual information around every corner, is they have no factual information which denies anyone elses knowledge of the industry, yet they are quick to claim such nonetheless.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #299
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You dont, but you can only speak for yourself. You dont get to speak for what others know or dont know. This is the major flaw with folks who demand factual information around every corner, is they have no factual information which denies anyone elses knowledge of the industry, yet they are quick to claim such nonetheless.
    So, do you have factual evidence to verify that what you say is true? Or, is it as I say, pure speculation on your part that the decision was made based on financial reasoning ONLY?
    Shorlong - Pale Master, Cevon - Druid Archer, Gorgnak - Barbarian, Addanc - Bear Tank, Juristash - Shadar Kai Assassin, Treiah - Morninglord Tempest Ranger, Baylfyre - CC Bard, Deimanus - Bladeforged Melee Arti, Daerian - Healing Cleric Morninglord, Krazig - Pally Tank, Veriste - Shadar Kai Death Knight, Xanapheia - TWF FVS, Helainia - Shadar Kai Henshin-Theif

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  20. #300
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    Default Somthing was bothering me ...

    I was trying to figure out how this thread had grown to 15 pages, and then I saw this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    And yes, you are impossible to talk to.
    of course, Chai is in da House!


    So, as I am NOT reading anything prior to this page, what's up? Declining DDO #s? P2W? The devs made all the wrong choices?

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