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  1. #1
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    Default Pure builds should be allowed to access tier 5 enhancements from 2 different trees

    As title says! In the current state of the game, there is just so little value in going pure, because you can get so much more out of levels in a different class than what pure builds give. Basically, enhancement wise, the only thing a pure build gets more is access to capstone which is rarely an incentive to go pure. Pretty much every non-caster benefits more from splashing 2/4/6 levels in a different class then they do from going pure. Melees have always been multiclassing a lot you say, but when I start seeing 18wiz/2 monk or 18sorc/2pally as often as I see pure caster builds, we got a problem here folks! Divines are also typically better off to splash monk or fighter levels these days…

    A simple way to manage this suggestion would be to add a warning when player train a new class on their characters. The trainers already tells you that you are training a new class, just add a line in regards to tier 5 enhancement limits. Reset all enhancements when someone multiclass also, to avoid someone trying to bypass system by getting say enhancements from 2 different trees by lvl 18 and then taking 2 levels in a new class.

    Does this represent a risk for power creep, maybe? But I kind of see it as a step to balance the power between pure and multiclass builds. The pure build would still probably spend 41 points in one tree to get capstone and a minimum of 31 points in the 2nd tree (if not more), leaving 8 points or less for racial and 3rd enhancement tree (which I hope by end of 2014, all class would have....wishful thinking, I know!) . Some pure builds would probably not even try to get tier 5 enhancement from different trees, but those that want to will have the options!

    I am curious what others think? Would this encourage you to do more pure builds? Feel free to "sign" if you agree or destroy the idea if you don’t like! But if you don’t like, try to say it in an intelligent way! (Unless you are Teh Troll, who has a lifetime license to troll!)

  2. #2
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Actually, a capstone with more testosterone in it would be incentive enough.

  3. #3
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    I don't see how it would be possible. You have to get 40 points in a tree to get the capstone...and you only have 80 points....
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Actually, a capstone with more testosterone in it would be incentive enough.
    Agreed, that would be another option. I did not review them all, but i am sure that at least 50% of the capstones could be improve or completely redone. I am just trying to suggest something to close the power gap between multiclass builds and pure builds.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    I don't see how it would be possible. You have to get 40 points in a tree to get the capstone...and you only have 80 points....
    This. And caster classes are still best kept pure.

  6. #6
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    I don't see how it would be possible. You have to get 40 points in a tree to get the capstone...and you only have 80 points....
    Only need 30 points in tree to get tier 5 now.

    I like this idea. It would finally have a potential benefit that would tempt me away from multiclassing on at least some characters.
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  7. #7
    Community Member gphysalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    This. And caster classes are still best kept pure.
    I think a lot of people would disagree with you on that.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorlong View Post
    I don't see how it would be possible. You have to get 40 points in a tree to get the capstone...and you only have 80 points....
    Not suggesting to give access to 2 capstones (which I know is not possible). I am suggesting to allow access to tier 5 enhancement (requires 30 pts) from 2 different trees on pure build,. Example, lvl 20 wizard could have school mastery II (tier 5 archmage) & Necrotic Blast (tier 5 pale master)

  9. #9
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    This. And caster classes are still best kept pure.
    I disagree on caster classes being best kept pure. If DC casting were more worthwhile, then that might be true, but there is some very nice casting that can be done on a split class - even a fairly deep split.
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  10. #10
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    A 20 wizard is still always going to make a better caster than a 18 wizard / 2 anything else without either the archmage or pale master capstone.

  11. #11
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    A 20 wizard is still always going to make a better caster than a 18 wizard / 2 anything else without either the archmage or pale master capstone.
    In what content and with what ED/twists?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Actually, a capstone with more testosterone in it would be incentive enough.
    Agreed. There really is no reason to play a pure-anything really. Monk, Rogue, Pally splashes will make pretty much everything better.

    A couple of seriously good capstone options should be provided for every class. Turbine really missed the boat with the Enhancement update because this would have been the perfect time.

    My guess is now they are far too busy with other things, so splash builds will be the flavour for a long time to come.

  13. #13
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    I like the OP's idea of pure builds having the potential to grab tier 5s in 2 trees. The cost is steep enough I don't think it would be a problem at all.

    I also strongly agree with the suggestion that capstones should be better.

  14. #14
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    A 20 wizard is still always going to make a better caster than a 18 wizard / 2 anything else without either the archmage or pale master capstone.
    Define better, because you're squishier, that's for sure, and you're not landing spells much more often (+2 INT = 1 DC) you have a tiny bit more spell penn.

    Personally I think the wraith form is better than Lich, non corp beats a little DC in my book.

    I like this idea. One of the problems with pure classing now is that it massively restricts the trees you can access... If you're looking at 2 meh trees then you're almost certainly spending 10-20 AP's on things you don't care about or that are underpowered compared to what you could get with those AP's

    I've got a lot of alts, before Warpriest my Pure FvS had points left over that I only spent in order to get the core spell power and 2 spell points per point spent. Most trees have about 36 AP's worth of stuff that is any use... in fact it's often less than that except you must spend 30 AP's to reach the 5th tier stuff so you often are spending 20 to 25 points on stuff you WANT and 5 to 10 points on stuff you could care less about.

    One of the problems with the enhancement pass, is that these fluffer enhancements that exist only as a TAX to soak up AP's into useless stuff, is that pure classes have less viable choices and end up spending a LOT more point in fluffers, when often a tier 1 GOOD ability in a tree they could have got via multiclassing would have been AP better spent.

    Easy example: 1 point in Henshin mystic for spell power (+5 fire and force) instead of 1 point into your pure class tree that only got you 1 spell power.

    Or 1 point in a core and 3 points into 10/15/20 hit points. Instead of 4 points into "blah" getting you 4 hps from Paladin Core spending.

    So many examples of this that's its honestly hard to have a pure class character any more.
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-03-2013 at 08:39 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I like the OP's idea of pure builds having the potential to grab tier 5s in 2 trees. The cost is steep enough I don't think it would be a problem at all.
    Yeah, would be neat.
    I also strongly agree with the suggestion that capstones should be better.
    Going to assume you mean that in a general sense, not that you think things like the Ravager crapstone are just fine
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  16. #16
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Define better, because you're squishier, that's for sure, and you're not landing spells much more often (+2 INT = 1 DC) you have a tiny bit more spell penn.

    Honestly I think the wraith form is better than Lich, non corp beats a little DC in my book.
    The thing with DC is there is no such thing as "a little DC". It's either enough or not, there is no in between. It's not like pure damage spells where you give up a little for more survivability or w/e.

    With DC it's either you have enough or you don't and you might as well not use your DC spells so that +1 DC can be the difference between a DC caster that is good at his job and one that is meh.

    If you don't go pure on a PM you lose 2 int from core cap, you lose 2 int if you can't get lich form as well as 1 dc to necromancy and you lose another 2 int from improved shrouding if your not in lich form.

    It adds up for DC casting.

    So sure if you have a high enough DC to start with but you still have access to lich form you only lose 1 DC which may or may not affect you as much depending you your char PL etc BUT if you forgo lich form as your implying and stick to wraith form you are losing much more than 1 DC.
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 12-03-2013 at 10:31 PM.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanuk View Post
    I am curious what others think? Would this encourage you to do more pure builds? Feel free to "sign" if you agree or destroy the idea if you don’t like! But if you don’t like, try to say it in an intelligent way! (Unless you are Teh Troll, who has a lifetime license to troll!)
    all my characters are pure. I TR'd my ranger out of 18 R/2 F to go pure Ranger. I don't regret going pure. access to tier 5 enhancements in 2 trees would be OP. my FB barbarian would salivate over having crit rage, but its just too powerful.

    the problem is that the new enhancements improved ways to build multi class characters picking from 3 different prestige trees per class, plus we got some new enhancements that are pretty cool and some better than the old enhancements. it also made building cookie cutter and FOTM builds easier.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Shorlong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Only need 30 points in tree to get tier 5 now.

    I like this idea. It would finally have a potential benefit that would tempt me away from multiclassing on at least some characters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kanuk View Post
    Not suggesting to give access to 2 capstones (which I know is not possible). I am suggesting to allow access to tier 5 enhancement (requires 30 pts) from 2 different trees on pure build,. Example, lvl 20 wizard could have school mastery II (tier 5 archmage) & Necrotic Blast (tier 5 pale master)
    Ahh, yes, I see it now. Reading comprehension, roll for save, roll a 1.
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  19. #19
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    The thing with DC is there is no such thing as "a little DC". It's either enough or not, there is no in between.
    +1 DC is exactly 5% reduction in the likelihood of a mob saving.

  20. #20
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    The thing that would really help pure classing would be finishing all the racial PRE's, one of my only Pure class characters is an Elf because of AA. The extra tree would go a long way to helping them have flexible choices among GOOD enhancements and less "fluffers".

    The reason this doesn't help Multi's as much is simple... Multi's are almost all already strapped for AP's most of the impetus for multiclassing now is access to trees that have stuff you want... this eats up AP quick.

    Pures have way more free AP's to spend, expecially if they removed the awful 40 AP capstone requirement, which looks like the handy work of someone who has no idea why the capstones exist.
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-03-2013 at 10:10 PM.

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