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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You seem to mistake bating for actual debate.

    Secondly, as I said before, if you need an ultra-powerful toon to be good at the game, then I guess you're not all that good at the game now are you?
    As I posted in your topic, I'm aware it's baiting.... heh, I just noticed you typed "bating". Gross.

    And I don't need ultrapowerful toons to be good. Mine're decent. Not in the top flavor of the month, and not in the junky flavor build category. I have four toons I play regularly, one on G-land, one on Argo, one on Cannith (Shelved because cannith is unplayable), and one for the lulz on Wayfinder.

    I just see a lot of dumb today for some reason. And it's not the mirror. I put that down ten minutes ago.

  2. #62
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    As I posted in your topic, I'm aware it's baiting.... heh, I just noticed you typed "bating". Gross.

    And I don't need ultrapowerful toons to be good. Mine're decent. Not in the top flavor of the month, and not in the junky flavor build category. I have four toons I play regularly, one on G-land, one on Argo, one on Cannith (Shelved because cannith is unplayable), and one for the lulz on Wayfinder.

    I just see a lot of dumb today for some reason. And it's not the mirror. I put that down ten minutes ago.
    "Bating", "Baiting"...it really all feels the same when you're done.

    (And, mind you, on my screen the edit window comes up black on dark, dark, dark gray so stuff that may be bad looks normal.)

  3. #63
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Ghoul View Post
    Name 10 builds you can't get more dps or survivablity from multi-classing then.
    Pure rogue. Everything else is a pure playstyle choice.

    That and I don't consider an 18/2 build to be a multiclass.

  4. #64
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    Pure rogue. Everything else is a pure playstyle choice.

    That and I don't consider an 18/2 build to be a multiclass.
    name 9 more.

    And yes, an 18/2 is a multiclass.

  5. #65
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Having the ability to raise dead when you are dead sorta defeats the purpose.

    Awww...whatsamatter, you getting toon envy? From a paladin?
    the same can be said about your Raise Dead clicky of a party slot/

    Nope not a single thing a Paladin has to offer that I would ever build a Paladin (again) or even Splash Paladin levels (outside of for the Pastlife feat)

    Multi Builds can be more diverse and in the Static groups I have run in not a single player could not raise dead.

    The comment more brought into question your thinking that raise dead was something a Pure Paladin brought to the party that was needed somehow.
    Last edited by Tanngiostr; 12-09-2013 at 03:50 PM.

  6. #66
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    the same can be said about your Raise Dead clicky of a party slot/

    Nope not a single thing a Paladin has to offer that I would ever build a Paladin (again) or even Splash Paladin levels (outside of for the Pastlife feat)

    Multi Builds can be more diverse and in the Static groups I have run in not a single player could not raise dead.

    The comment more brought into question your thinking that raise dead was something a Pure Paladin brought to the party that was needed somehow.

    I guess some people just need an easy button to make them feel like they are winners.

    Try doing things without all the bells and whistles. It’s amazing what you’ll learn sonny…

  7. #67
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonemerge View Post
    ...
    Casters do not need an uber-capstone - their strength is their caster level.
    You could switch 2 levels for rogue's trap skill and evasion or 2 levels of monk for evasion and slightly better saves (and a full Earth Stance would cost you 3 Feats)
    Or you stay pure and get more Damage-Dice and longer buffs and better DCs from the 2 levels more and the capstone.
    ...
    Got to disagree just one one point here for DC casters you are giving up 2 levels (that is why they are the only ones who greatly benefit from staying pure) for DPS casters though you generally lose nothing. Most DPS spells cap out at caster level 10 or 15 so those extra 2 levels are giving up on DC which is either evaded or saved for half more often than not even with those extra 2 levels. The only spell that is of real use that gains DPS is polar ray and giving up 2d3+6 for evasion + stance is honestly a non-issue.

    The only class I can see that is better off staying pure is a CC Archmage or a Pale Master. Anything else can gain with 2 levels of something else in it.


  8. #68
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I guess some people just need an easy button to make them feel like they are winners.

    Try doing things without all the bells and whistles. It’s amazing what you’ll learn sonny…
    I rate this troll an 8 out of 10.

    Sure it'll get some replies but it's kinda obvious.

    I expect better.

  9. #69
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=bsquishwizzy;5193468]I guess some people just need an easy button to make them feel like they are winners.

    Try doing things without all the bells and whistles. It’s amazing what you’ll learn sonny…[/QUOTE

    Boring

    While your limiting yourself to the Capabilities of 1 single class

    I will continue to build to the advantages of Multi class

  10. #70
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Tanngiostr;5193487]
    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I guess some people just need an easy button to make them feel like they are winners.

    Try doing things without all the bells and whistles. It’s amazing what you’ll learn sonny…[/QUOTE

    Boring

    While your limiting yourself to the Capabilities of 1 single class

    I will continue to build to the advantages of Multi class
    You do that.

    And when the devs come around with the nerf bat, don't si I didn't tell you so, Sonny...

  11. #71
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I rate this troll an 8 out of 10.

    Sure it'll get some replies but it's kinda obvious.

    I expect better.
    I was distracted by work.

    Stupid work...

  12. #72
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=bsquishwizzy;5193505]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post

    You do that.

    And when the devs come around with the nerf bat, don't si I didn't tell you so, Sonny...
    seams you think that my builds don't grow and adjust as the game changes

    if the Devs come with a nerf bat then its just another TR or Epic TR away for me.

    The Enhancement pass did buff Multi Classing quite a bit but I've been Multi classing since Update 3 so nothing new about changing with the game.

  13. #73
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    name 9 more.

    And yes, an 18/2 is a multiclass.
    Artificer is best as pure. I can't name 8 more. This is all I know.

  14. #74
    Community Member deahamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Artificer is best as pure. I can't name 8 more. This is all I know.
    Any DC casting is best pure.

    Now as to arti, depends what you are building. Pure xbow user is NOT best pure. Hybrid caster/xbow is probably best pure; pure caster arti is probably best pure.
    Even a hybrid arti can squeeze in /2 rogue for evasion with Insightful Reflexes, much more survivable.

    People build pure sorcerers, I have one, but an EE WF Shiradi sorcerer probably can survive better with a splash.

    FvS DC caster benefits from /2 monk actually, but can work very well pure. Not sure which is best here. Cleric definitely does better with splash, even as a DC caster.

    Wizard DC pale master (CC and instakill) and archmage DC CC caster - definitely better pure.

    Anything Shiradi does not have to be pure. FvS melee benefits from multiclass tremendously, even a heal-bot is better /2 Pally for survivability in EE.

    So we have:
    1. Wizard - DC instakill spec (pale master)
    2. Wizard - DC CC spec (archmage)
    3. Arti pure caster - BB DCs need all the help they can get since we can't heighten to level 9.
    4. Draconic sorcerer - air savant human is a DC kind of DPS caster so best pure.
    5. Questionable - hybrid caster/xbow arti

    On the other hand we have all the amazing multi-classes:
    1. Divine going for DCs are better with /2 monk for the +2 wisdom from stances (and the capstone sucks)
    2. Ranged bow users - ranger and monk multiclass is ideal (ranger and monk plus something else or just those two)
    3. Xbow users - multiclass is WAY better by far, the bonuses to range from the ranger enhancements are too good, or go rogue; the weird half-elf trees didn't help this
    4. Shiradi caster - WF sorcerer or wizard, multiclass for saves, evasion, etc. Generally better survivability.
    5. Melee DPS - any type of melee DPS in today's world just is better multi-class. WILL note however that 12/6/2 has been THE DPS ownage in this category for a few years.
    6. Divine going for survivability - /2 pally is very good nowadays, was not before.

    Keep in mind that most of the builds in the "best pure" category are not very optimal in EE. Which the best multi-class are the best in EE. And that the categories described in multi-class section encompass a lot more variety in builds than the description suggests.
    Toons on Orien:
    Daemonav Atreides: WF artificer (TR 2/14)////Irullan Atreides: human FvS (TR 2/?!?)////Lorrellei Atreides: human ice/acid sorcerer////Aliademon Atreides: elf PM necro/enchant wizzie (TR 2/8)

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    If you don't know what a bro-down is, you need to watch more South Park. And you're a poor substitute for Teh Troll. I suggest laying off the man juice.
    Agreed, Teh_ghoul, coppying Teh_trolls schtick and doing it at about 1%* the wittyness and cleverness is getting old. Come up with your own thing man.

    * (Dumb and Dummer: so you're saying there's a %)
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-09-2013 at 07:34 PM.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonadRebelion View Post
    It seems to me there are a lot of posts by people asking to make various abilities more powerful. From what I've gathered people are concerned that their favorite character is being outshined by someone with some other kind of build. "Since these other builds are so powerful", so seems to be their reasoning, "either these other builds need to be nerfed or or mine made more powerful." I haven't seen a thread specifically for those who oppose this view. Since this attitude is so prevalent on the forums and I know the folks at Turbine pay attention to the forums I am starting this anti-power thread, because I would like to see this attitude play a rather limited role in shaping the game.

    I play pure class characters exclusively, and I don't want them to be made more powerful over night for free (I am happy to make them more powerful through playing). Also, I don't begrudge the folks who make insanely powerful multiclass builds. I don't care if those builds ever get nerfed or not. I am quite satisfied with the power of my pure class characters. I am also happy that I could do things like multiclass to increase the power and supplement the abilities of my characters, if I wanted to. (I don't want to.) I like that my pure class characters have weaknesses, and that they are not good at everything. I like that I can make decisions about my characters' builds that are good, useful, and intelligent, but that do not make him/her a self-sufficient powerhouse in every area of the game. If the only way to make characters with varying strengths and capabilities was to make stupid build decisions, I would find this an uninteresting game. I don't have any interest in playing a game in which the choices in selecting between builds are roughly equivalent to making a choice between red or green pants. I think the tendency to move DDO in this direction should be resisted.

    As I said above, my reason for starting this thread is because it seems to me that the noise from folks who think the development team at Turbine needs to fix their builds for them or make them more powerful in some way seems to have drowned out the opposition, and this makes me worry about future changes to the game. If you are sufficiently on board with the idea that we don't need the folks at Turbine to spend time figuring out how to make our builds stronger, I hope you'll sign below. (If you agree that the folks at Turbine shouldn't worry about how to make our builds stronger, but you think I'm wrong about folks not being loud enough about this on the forums, it would still comfort me to see you sign below.)
    ^ this person gets it, have fun use the options you choose and focus on what you want to focus on, any build in DDO is viable... the Enhancement pass has done a wonderful thing for the game. It has made an already rich character building experience even more organic. Crazy thing is they could have made it even more interesting without the AP spent restrictiveness, but it is extremely compelling now. Maybe in a few years they will expand the Enhancements in some way and remove to AP spent prerequisites.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  17. #77
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deahamlet View Post
    Any DC casting is best pure.

    Now as to arti, depends what you are building. Pure xbow user is NOT best pure. Hybrid caster/xbow is probably best pure; pure caster arti is probably best pure.
    Even a hybrid arti can squeeze in /2 rogue for evasion with Insightful Reflexes, much more survivable.

    /snip
    Pure arties do much better dps than splashed arties. Sure, you might get a bit more out of your xbow, but you'll lose out on rune arm + spell damage.

    The other stuff was interesting to read, though.

  18. #78
    Community Member deahamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Pure arties do much better dps than splashed arties. Sure, you might get a bit more out of your xbow, but you'll lose out on rune arm + spell damage.

    The other stuff was interesting to read, though.
    True but that is why I said pure xbow... They would probably have less interest in the rune-arm itself other than another slot to put stuff into and the added elemental damage. I have seen people use rogue and ranger enhancements to increase xbow damage much more than battle engineer gives you. Is it better to be a hybrid with xbow/rune-arm/spells? I personally think so, it's why I play an arti, but not everyone wants to play hybrid. I still think if you just care for xbow, not spells or rune-arm, a heavy multi-class is much better.

    Thanx for finding the rest interesting.
    Toons on Orien:
    Daemonav Atreides: WF artificer (TR 2/14)////Irullan Atreides: human FvS (TR 2/?!?)////Lorrellei Atreides: human ice/acid sorcerer////Aliademon Atreides: elf PM necro/enchant wizzie (TR 2/8)

  19. #79
    Hero LOOON375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post

    BTW: do you think pure builds do okay in all of the game's content because they are being carried by the multiclassers?
    No. But can depend.

    It depends who is behind the keyboard and how they play.

    Ive seen toons with the top build and top gear played like a fricken disaster. lol
    The Fockers of Argo
    Fuglymofo; LOOON; Hobaggin; Fuglyrobo; Buttscracher; Whoaa

  20. #80
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    Pure arties do much better dps than splashed arties. Sure, you might get a bit more out of your xbow, but you'll lose out on rune arm + spell damage.

    The other stuff was interesting to read, though.
    having played 4 Arti-centric heroic lives all on the same character

    20 Arti

    2 Ranger 2 Monk 16 Arti TWF Deathnip Juggernaut

    20 Arti (+20 heart to Druid for pastlife) I hated Druid

    10 Arti 10 Ranger

    I now into Epic TR as a Bladeforged Ranged focused Artificer

    I'm running a Multi class build that gives me all the ranged feats /evasion/combat archery/overwhelming critical

    for me the Arti offensive spells are just not worth it my SP gets reserved for buffing and self healing

    I have 13 action boosts per rest for endless fuselage

    for me Multi > Pure for Arti all day

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