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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Ghoul View Post
    Ummm that is what staying pure in 90% of the cases is. A stupid decision.
    I agree if you want to get uber self-sufficient solo builds. But often people sacrifice caster dcs or dps to make there build a little more stable, or self-sufficient, which is redundant if you have a good healer with you. I personally prefer a balanced party over self-sufficient multiclassers, since they, if well played, compensate their weaknesses altogether and attack with full potential, rather than 6 people who solo the same quest at the same time without much interaction. So no, not necessarily a stupid decision.
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  2. #22

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    Some roles have to be carefully watched and tended to.
    They cannot be allowed to fall too far behind.

    Ever sit in front of a raid for two hours waiting for a divine to log on and join?


    Some roles pretty much get the bacon without fail.
    The don't need much worry.

  3. #23
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I must have gotten lucky and stayed in that 10%...for every toon.

    Pure is fine if you know how to handle the limitations.
    A pure paladin? ................18 wasted levels..........sure I could make one that wouldn't be a burden to a party even in EE.......but........it definately wont have as much ability as me on some other build, heck even any other class 100% pure.

    Sorry OP paladin could do with some serious help, I doubt you know what your talking about, step into something besides casual........theres massive power gaps in this game, its no where near balanced at all across the classes and the EDs. A lot of class/some racial enhancements and EDs need work to make them more relevant and on par with others.

  4. #24
    Community Member Teh_Ghoul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morkahn82 View Post
    I agree if you want to get uber self-sufficient solo builds. But often people sacrifice caster dcs or dps to make there build a little more stable, or self-sufficient, which is redundant if you have a good healer with you. I personally prefer a balanced party over self-sufficient multiclassers, since they, if well played, compensate their weaknesses altogether and attack with full potential, rather than 6 people who solo the same quest at the same time without much interaction. So no, not necessarily a stupid decision.
    Casters that dump dc's are probably shiradi as they don't need them. Any other caster doesn't dump them and doesn't need to. Is a jugg or centered cleaver less dps than a full retard barb? Maybe though fury shot bursts puts it close. So lets say it's 10% though I'm not convinced it's that high. Guess what that 10% means that you spend 99% less time as a soul stone. Stupid Choice is stupid.

  5. #25
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morkahn82 View Post
    I agree if you want to get uber self-sufficient solo builds. But often people sacrifice caster dcs or dps to make there build a little more stable, or self-sufficient, which is redundant if you have a good healer with you. I personally prefer a balanced party over self-sufficient multiclassers, since they, if well played, compensate their weaknesses altogether and attack with full potential, rather than 6 people who solo the same quest at the same time without much interaction. So no, not necessarily a stupid decision.
    how much DPS do you really lose with cocoon twisted in or umd for a heal scroll? its a very small margin imho I doubt its even as high as a 5% loss, well worth putting into your build so you can go and do a quest at any level without having to wait 4 hours for that healer, or to complete content when that healer dc's, I hate the penalties on SF pots but they are well worth carrying, sure I might lose some dps using em...........but you cant dps when your dead.


    Also just because everyone in the party can do their own healing doesn't mean that they all *solo* the quest and there is no team work, often we have abilities on cooldown timers and we get it all in sync and it makes the quest go even faster and smoother and is more fun getting the parties, cc/instant kills whatever abilities to mesh.

  6. #26
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Ghoul View Post
    Casters that dump dc's are probably shiradi as they don't need them. Any other caster doesn't dump them and doesn't need to. Is a jugg or centered cleaver less dps than a full retard barb? Maybe though fury shot bursts puts it close. So lets say it's 10% though I'm not convinced it's that high. Guess what that 10% means that you spend 99% less time as a soul stone. Stupid Choice is stupid.
    also in EE's ive seen some of those uber dps barbs...........even with a good healer and other party members not being stingy with hjeals those ubar dps barbs often had 0 dps as........soulstone = 0 dps.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    how much DPS do you really lose with cocoon twisted in or umd for a heal scroll? its a very small margin imho I doubt its even as high as a 5% loss, well worth putting into your build so you can go and do a quest at any level without having to wait 4 hours for that healer, or to complete content when that healer dc's, I hate the penalties on SF pots but they are well worth carrying, sure I might lose some dps using em...........but you cant dps when your dead.


    Also just because everyone in the party can do their own healing doesn't mean that they all *solo* the quest and there is no team work, often we have abilities on cooldown timers and we get it all in sync and it makes the quest go even faster and smoother and is more fun getting the parties, cc/instant kills whatever abilities to mesh.
    my message is not about using twists or use umd or use of SF pots, it was about pure builds are stupid or not, you do not necessarily need multiclassing for using cocoon and umd heal scrolls. I answered to this message:

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Ghoul View Post
    Ummm that is what staying pure in 90% of the cases is. A stupid decision.
    and:

    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    without having to wait 4 hours for that healer,
    yes that is a problem. Good healers tend not to pug.
    Last edited by morkahn82; 12-05-2013 at 02:11 AM.
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  8. #28
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morkahn82 View Post
    my message is not about using twists or use umd, it was about pure builds are stupid or not, you do not need multiclassing for using cocoon and umd heal scrolls.
    You said self sufficient...........pretty much any class combo can be self sufficient so I thought you where talking about absolute max dps ape build/play style with no self healing or buffing even from consumables.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    You said self sufficient...........pretty much any class combo can be self sufficient so I thought you where talking about absolute max dps ape build/play style with no self healing or buffing even from consumables.
    nah, I also have some multiclass builds and some pure builds. Often you can play a role self-sufficiently and stay pure(!) without sacrificing anything. I just can not agree with

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Ghoul View Post
    Ummm that is what staying pure in 90% of the cases is. A stupid decision.
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  10. #30
    Community Member Teh_Ghoul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morkahn82 View Post
    nah, I also have some multiclass builds and some pure builds. Often you can play a role self-sufficiently and stay pure(!) without sacrificing anything. I just can not agree with
    Name 10 builds you can't get more dps or survivablity from multi-classing then.

  11. #31
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morkahn82 View Post
    nah, I also have some multiclass builds and some pure builds. Often you can play a role self-sufficiently and stay pure(!) without sacrificing anything. I just can not agree with
    fair enough, though now days I don't really see the benefits of staying pure on a paladin or bard........bard the capstone, but the CC dc's needed for the disco ball are so stupid high its not worth it, and you can have all the fascinate dc you need without going pure so............splashing for more combate feats is very useful on most bard builds and also more combate enhancements the enhancement pass made splashing or multiclassing even more attractive.......and if your going to play EE..........with the DC's you need on a caster its better to just go straight sharadi and SLA dps, you can then up your survivability and other stuff by multiclassing.

  12. #32
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    You do realize that DDO is based on 3.0/3.5 D&D, the home of munchkinism and Pun-Pun?
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    Yes, we all know you were right back in 2009 before you took an arrow to the knee.
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    I wish there were a way to never see any of your posts.

  13. #33
    Community Member Oberon_Shrader's Avatar
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    This is an interesting discussion.

    I'd like to add a few things:

    1) No build is really perfect, there's always a situation that'll get some build. The only real exception to this is if a build is benefitting from something not WAI or from unintended synergies. This is so rare, it basically doesn't happen.

    2) Pure builds can handle themselves in any content if built properly. I have only pure builds, some of which are highly self-sufficient. Don't tell me they can't be; they are.

    Let me expand on these two points before I go on. Just yesterday my guild wanted to run "What Goes Up" on EE. Not exactly an easy run. My guildies have some very efficient multi-class builds that they brought to the run. I brought my pure cleric. Point A: I got in the fights (I mean I was in the melee) and died less than they did. There's self-sufficient. Unfortunately, I ran out of time (that quest is looooonnnggg on EE) and had to bail just b4 the last boss. Point B: my guildies told me that after I bailed they wiped "like 10 times". Don't know if it really was 10x full party wipes, but point is, they had a lot more difficulty without a specialized class supporting them (yes, I know it was a healer and we all need heals), despite being highly self-sufficient themselves. Point C: Neither my pure build nor their multi-classed builds handled the quest better than the other.

    Now, please don't give me whining and assumptive responses like "They must have...." or "But you...." or any other "if", "ands" or "buts".

    3) That said, I think DDO does have one thing strangely opposite D&D: it strikes me that in D&D pure classes should be the more powerful and multi-classes should be more flexible.

    4) Power creep is a problem in most MMOs, I think. Developers (should) strive for balance so that there are many good ways to play the game and not just a few best ways to play the game. With that in mind, nerfs are necessary and, as long as not taken too far, even healthy for the game. I know most players hate to see nerfs of any kind, but that's how I see it.

    Phew!

    3) Power creep is a problem in most MMOs, I think. Nerfs are a necessary evil and as long as they don't go too far can keep the game healthy

  14. #34
    Community Member Oberon_Shrader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon_Shrader View Post
    3) That said, I think DDO does have one thing strangely opposite D&D: it strikes me that in D&D pure classes should be the more powerful and multi-classes should be more flexible.

    4) Power creep is a problem in most MMOs, I think. Developers (should) strive for balance so that there are many good ways to play the game and not just a few best ways to play the game. With that in mind, nerfs are necessary and, as long as not taken too far, even healthy for the game. I know most players hate to see nerfs of any kind, but that's how I see it.

    Phew!

    3) Power creep is a problem in most MMOs, I think. Nerfs are a necessary evil and as long as they don't go too far can keep the game healthy
    That second "3)" shouldn't be there and it won't let me edit the post. :S

  15. #35
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morkahn82 View Post

    yes that is a problem. Good healers tend not to pug.
    what to play pure?

    roll up 20 FVS or 20 CLR then pug problem solved you'll always have a healer!

  16. #36
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knightgf View Post
    One thing I can definately say is that with the enhancement pass, multi-classing has opened up WAY too much. One particular complaint I have is the monkcher; isn't it stupid that in order to be one of the best rangers, you have to splash monk and some other crazy builds instead of being a pure ranger? It's stupid! I really liked it before where pure classes were more viable than multiclasses, but now, forget it. I gotta love how capped heroic level characters are walking around with class levels in the single digits, they're popping up all over the place now more than ever.
    The monkcher was around way before the enhancement pass, and even before U14 and ED's.

    And, you don't.
    To be the best Ranger, all you need are Ranger levels.
    To be the best Archer, you need only 6 monk levels.
    Archer =/= Ranger.

    Rangers are, by design, supposed to be really good at melee and Ranged. BOTH.
    This is why they get all the feats for both for free. The reason people think Rangers are so gimp, or have no fun playing them(Before and now) is because they think they have to be melee, or ranged. The fact of the matter is a Ranger is supposed to do both, not one or the other. With 6 Monk levels and a couple feats you can be 100% Ranged if you want. But a pure ranger was never, ever supposed to be purely ranged.

    Pure classes have never, in the past 4 years(with slight exceptions for certain players), been more viable that multiclassing.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Stonemerge's Avatar
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    What exactly is the problem ?

    Casters do not need an uber-capstone - their strength is their caster level.
    You could switch 2 levels for rogue's trap skill and evasion or 2 levels of monk for evasion and slightly better saves (and a full Earth Stance would cost you 3 Feats)
    Or you stay pure and get more Damage-Dice and longer buffs and better DCs from the 2 levels more and the capstone.

    A pure Ranger not only gets a 5th FavoredEnemy (their true strength), a capped DeepwoodSniper is always(!) in PBS&SneakRange (+Sneak Die and more Dex for Hits and Evasion).
    And your buffs will last longer (and a lvl 20 ranger of course has better spells than a lvl 6 or 12 one)

    The pure rogue gets 4 sneakdice from Assassin - better than any mulitclass-sneaks can be.

    pure or multiclass, both have only 80 Action Points to spent.
    if you want better tiers in your mulitclasses, you will lose action points in your mainclass.
    often the ones, you want to spent in the high tier slots; and you have 3 prestige classes anyways. even a pure build has more than enough options.
    Spend points in Deepwood and ArcaneArcher and you still would wish to have more Action points, i doubt that there are many point left for additional trees

    15% doublestrike (Kensei) - hardly to beat

    Some Trees are not that great (like Rogue Mechanist), i agree ... but everything is playable ... its not the build ... its the player, the gear and the ed

    in a few months everything might change and then a pure build just needs a +0 lesser heart of wood and is back on the track, while all those multiclassers need to TR and make a complete new build.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonadRebelion View Post
    My concern, however, is that characters are already ridiculously powerful, and the push to make them even more powerful, think I, will make this game less fun at the end of the day.
    In reality, if you're playing at EE then they're not ridiculously powerful, they're end-game-viable.

    The problem isn't with the power that certain class, feat, enhancement, destiny combination offer. Some combinations work extremely well, in the hands of a skilled player. I've been in parties where someone decides to start telling us how awesome their current Juggernaught build is .... and I've watched it die repeatedly while I outkill it and generally out-perform it in every way. That's not to say I'm the uberest ever, but I'm good enough to know what I'm doing. And that's not to say that others can't make a Juggernaught own everything it comes within range of.

    Coming up with an interesting build and putting it to the test is a type of fun all in it's own. The people asking for more power are normally the people who haven't taken the time to learn the game, to learn how to build a good character that suits their playstyle or learn how to think a bit tactically rather than acting like a chump. They want more power because the current fotm build they've tried just doesn't work out they way they think it should, they die repeatedly and get owned by the mobs and they never stop to think that maybe the problem isn't with the build.

    As you've already said that you only play pure-builds, you have decided on a course of action that means that you will only ever experience a fraction of what the game has to offer in terms of character building. This choice is yours. It's not wrong or right, it's a purely personal choice. I on the other hand, enjoy making my own choices, and if I choose to build a character to be self-sufficient and end-game-viable then that is entirely my choice.

    Now if you want to campaign for some improvements to epic destinies to give even more end-game-viable builds then I'll totally get behind that. If you want to campaign for improvements to melee defensive options to help with damage mitigation on EE then I'll get behind that. Not every build combination should be viable against the trickiest challenges in the game. That would just remove the satisfaction in building a capable character, which I think would be far more damaging to the game.

    So I won't sign the proposal not to add more power. I'll sign the proposal to add more power where it's needed.

  19. #39
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Ghoul View Post
    Name 10 builds you can't get more dps or survivablity from multi-classing then.
    The "FOTM or it sucks" attitude is a myth. EDs are so powerful it doesn't matter what platform someone is using them from. Multiclassing? Just go shiradi and click a few buttons for the win.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #40
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Ghoul View Post
    Please you would have been stronger multi-ed and you know it. That's why you felt the need to bring up the characters limitations. THAT MEANS IT WAS A BAD DECISION.
    If splashing a toon means that is had "no limitations," then that is a balance issue, and I'd expect a nerf to be coming forthwith. In fact, I'd almost count on that happening. Then you'll be in a major world of "boo hoo" butthurt because your build is no longer uber.

    Let's face it: if you can't handle performing well under a number of limitations, you're not as good as you think you are...at anything...

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