Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 89
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    416

    Default Anti-Power Thread

    It seems to me there are a lot of posts by people asking to make various abilities more powerful. From what I've gathered people are concerned that their favorite character is being outshined by someone with some other kind of build. "Since these other builds are so powerful", so seems to be their reasoning, "either these other builds need to be nerfed or or mine made more powerful." I haven't seen a thread specifically for those who oppose this view. Since this attitude is so prevalent on the forums and I know the folks at Turbine pay attention to the forums I am starting this anti-power thread, because I would like to see this attitude play a rather limited role in shaping the game.

    I play pure class characters exclusively, and I don't want them to be made more powerful over night for free (I am happy to make them more powerful through playing). Also, I don't begrudge the folks who make insanely powerful multiclass builds. I don't care if those builds ever get nerfed or not. I am quite satisfied with the power of my pure class characters. I am also happy that I could do things like multiclass to increase the power and supplement the abilities of my characters, if I wanted to. (I don't want to.) I like that my pure class characters have weaknesses, and that they are not good at everything. I like that I can make decisions about my characters' builds that are good, useful, and intelligent, but that do not make him/her a self-sufficient powerhouse in every area of the game. If the only way to make characters with varying strengths and capabilities was to make stupid build decisions, I would find this an uninteresting game. I don't have any interest in playing a game in which the choices in selecting between builds are roughly equivalent to making a choice between red or green pants. I think the tendency to move DDO in this direction should be resisted.

    As I said above, my reason for starting this thread is because it seems to me that the noise from folks who think the development team at Turbine needs to fix their builds for them or make them more powerful in some way seems to have drowned out the opposition, and this makes me worry about future changes to the game. If you are sufficiently on board with the idea that we don't need the folks at Turbine to spend time figuring out how to make our builds stronger, I hope you'll sign below. (If you agree that the folks at Turbine shouldn't worry about how to make our builds stronger, but you think I'm wrong about folks not being loud enough about this on the forums, it would still comfort me to see you sign below.)
    Wizenmann (29th life Completionist Cleric), Diotimae (13th life Tank), Malwida (7th life Rogue Mechanic), Iraenilee (4th life Sorc), Garainth (3rd life Bard), Stirner (3rd life Paladin), and a grip of others. Sole member of Solipsists United on Ghallanda.

  2. #2
    Community Member Teh_Ghoul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    232

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MonadRebelion View Post
    If the only way to make characters with varying strengths and capabilities was to make stupid build decisions, I would find this an uninteresting game.
    Ummm that is what staying pure in 90% of the cases is. A stupid decision.

  3. #3
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    913

    Default

    Bro-down!

  4. #4
    Community Member Teh_Ghoul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    232

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    Bro-down!

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    913

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Ghoul View Post

    If you don't know what a bro-down is, you need to watch more South Park. And you're a poor substitute for Teh Troll. I suggest laying off the man juice.

  6. #6
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    3,688

    Default

    This game is in a constant state of flux, whether it's for good or bad. The popular builds today weren't even possible 2 years ago and I'm sure 2 years from now, everything that's powerful will be obsolete. It might be that the rate of turnover is a bit slow for some players. Things that are extremely powerful do tend to either get nerfed or get left behind when the next round of buffs come along. It's not perfect, but change keeps the game fresh. That being said, I do agree that capstones are just not enough incentive to go pure right now. Multiclass in general is far more powerful. I'm not sure that buffing up capstones to even greater strengths is enough to get people to keep their classes pure. In many cases, it would take an extremely powerful capstone to do that. Capstones worked under the old enhancement system somewhat, but under the new system they are a grandfathered relic.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  7. #7
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Ghoul View Post
    Ummm that is what staying pure in 90% of the cases is. A stupid decision.
    I suspect much of the value in playing this game is determined by the way in which particular people desire to play it. So, it would seem to me that for those folks who both desire to play pure class characters and in fact end up playing them are making intelligent decisions. It seems to me that if people do not want to play a pure class character, but end up playing them anyway, then they might be making a stupid decision. I have no idea what percentage of people end up playing pure class characters who don't desire to, but then again, that's really irrelevant to my original post, isn't it.
    Wizenmann (29th life Completionist Cleric), Diotimae (13th life Tank), Malwida (7th life Rogue Mechanic), Iraenilee (4th life Sorc), Garainth (3rd life Bard), Stirner (3rd life Paladin), and a grip of others. Sole member of Solipsists United on Ghallanda.

  8. #8
    Community Member Teh_Ghoul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    232

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MonadRebelion View Post
    I suspect much of the value in playing this game is determined by the way in which particular people desire to play it. So, it would seem to me that for those folks who both desire to play pure class characters and in fact end up playing them are making intelligent decisions. It seems to me that if people do not want to play a pure class character, but end up playing them anyway, then they might be making a stupid decision. I have no idea what percentage of people end up playing pure class characters who don't desire to, but then again, that's really irrelevant to my original post, isn't it.
    No it's completely relevant, if it's not the most powerful it could have been it was a stupid choice.

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,329

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MonadRebelion View Post
    It seems to me there are a lot of posts by people asking to make various abilities more powerful. From what I've gathered people are concerned that their favorite character is being outshined by someone with some other kind of build. "Since these other builds are so powerful", so seems to be their reasoning, "either these other builds need to be nerfed or or mine made more powerful." I haven't seen a thread specifically for those who oppose this view. Since this attitude is so prevalent on the forums and I know the folks at Turbine pay attention to the forums I am starting this anti-power thread, because I would like to see this attitude play a rather limited role in shaping the game.
    I think it is safe to say most people want balance. They want choice. They want options. They want the ability to play different characters and different styles. Sure, some people will take builds which are just plain nuts and dont deserve to be buffed because the class(es) was(were) never designed that way. But I'd like to think that most people would be okay with the idea that all classes should have strong enough options that make them playable in any content and you shouldnt need to be stuck taking particular builds or else youre simply not going to cut it.

    But mostly they dont want nerfs because the nerf bats are always wielded by Storm Giants rather than Kobolds and always go to far.

    So to get the balance you need some buffs.

    Personally I wouldnt mind some sensible nerfs to bring some particular builds back to Earth, but also think that there needs to be some changes done to Mob mechanics. Adding more HP, giving everything Evasion/Deathward/whatever, and having Saves so high that nothing works is not a clever way to make content hard. Its the laziest way.

  10. #10
    Community Member knightgf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,080

    Default

    One thing I can definately say is that with the enhancement pass, multi-classing has opened up WAY too much. One particular complaint I have is the monkcher; isn't it stupid that in order to be one of the best rangers, you have to splash monk and some other crazy builds instead of being a pure ranger? It's stupid! I really liked it before where pure classes were more viable than multiclasses, but now, forget it. I gotta love how capped heroic level characters are walking around with class levels in the single digits, they're popping up all over the place now more than ever.
    Here's a riddle for you: What do you call people who play the game for only a day and apparently know everything?

  11. #11
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    This game is in a constant state of flux, whether it's for good or bad. The popular builds today weren't even possible 2 years ago and I'm sure 2 years from now, everything that's powerful will be obsolete. It might be that the rate of turnover is a bit slow for some players. Things that are extremely powerful do tend to either get nerfed or get left behind when the next round of buffs come along. It's not perfect, but change keeps the game fresh. That being said, I do agree that capstones are just not enough incentive to go pure right now. Multiclass in general is far more powerful. I'm not sure that buffing up capstones to even greater strengths is enough to get people to keep their classes pure. In many cases, it would take an extremely powerful capstone to do that. Capstones worked under the old enhancement system somewhat, but under the new system they are a grandfathered relic.
    The fact that multiclassing is a way to optimize your build seems to be just a reality of D&D. As long as I can remember this has been a part of the game. I also recognize that what the most powerful builds are changes according to the current state of the game. My concern, however, is that characters are already ridiculously powerful, and the push to make them even more powerful, think I, will make this game less fun at the end of the day. Thus, the idea that we should be offered a carrot so big that many of the multiclassers will think pure class builds are sufficiently powerful to switch over strikes me as a step toward making this less fun. If people want to make over powered multiclass builds, let them do that. I just don't want to see the game made so easy that an intelligently made pure class character is comparable a multiclass character designed for maximum self sufficiency. I think it's an awesome idea to have characters with real weaknesses that can be supplemented by other kinds of characters.
    Last edited by MonadRebelion; 12-04-2013 at 10:47 PM.
    Wizenmann (29th life Completionist Cleric), Diotimae (13th life Tank), Malwida (7th life Rogue Mechanic), Iraenilee (4th life Sorc), Garainth (3rd life Bard), Stirner (3rd life Paladin), and a grip of others. Sole member of Solipsists United on Ghallanda.

  12. #12
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    I think it is safe to say most people want balance. They want choice. They want options. They want the ability to play different characters and different styles. Sure, some people will take builds which are just plain nuts and dont deserve to be buffed because the class(es) was(were) never designed that way. But I'd like to think that most people would be okay with the idea that all classes should have strong enough options that make them playable in any content and you shouldnt need to be stuck taking particular builds or else youre simply not going to cut it.

    But mostly they dont want nerfs because the nerf bats are always wielded by Storm Giants rather than Kobolds and always go to far.

    So to get the balance you need some buffs....
    Very well said and I couldn't agree more with the general sentiment.

    I think it's inaccurate to imply that certain single class builds are "not going to cut it" or that they aren't "playable in any content," however. It's just that with much stronger options out there, few people are incentivised into rolling certain single class characters like Fighters, Rangers, and dps Paladins right now. The original poster and I'm sure others in these forums are quite happy with their pure class characters, and I respect that. I'm sure they do very well with them. Others, like myself, would have to see the lvl 18 and capstone abilities improved for a lot of classes before I would consider going pure, but I certainly have no intention of invalidating another person's characters and don't doubt their ability to be effective with them.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 12-04-2013 at 10:56 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MonadRebelion View Post
    ...I think it's an awesome idea to have characters with real weaknesses that can be supplemented by other kinds of characters.
    I like everything you've said in this thread and I'm having trouble disagreeing with any of it. I think people on both sides of this have valid points.

    Is that unacceptable in these forums? Am I on my way to a lifetime ban?

  14. #14
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,822

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Ghoul View Post
    Ummm that is what staying pure in 90% of the cases is. A stupid decision.
    I must have gotten lucky and stayed in that 10%...for every toon.

    Pure is fine if you know how to handle the limitations.

  15. #15
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    I think it is safe to say most people want balance. They want choice. They want options. They want the ability to play different characters and different styles. Sure, some people will take builds which are just plain nuts and dont deserve to be buffed because the class(es) was(were) never designed that way. But I'd like to think that most people would be okay with the idea that all classes should have strong enough options that make them playable in any content and you shouldnt need to be stuck taking particular builds or else youre simply not going to cut it.

    But mostly they dont want nerfs because the nerf bats are always wielded by Storm Giants rather than Kobolds and always go to far.

    So to get the balance you need some buffs.

    Personally I wouldnt mind some sensible nerfs to bring some particular builds back to Earth, but also think that there needs to be some changes done to Mob mechanics. Adding more HP, giving everything Evasion/Deathward/whatever, and having Saves so high that nothing works is not a clever way to make content hard. Its the laziest way.
    Again, for myself, I don't care if mulitclass builds get nerfed. I think if you figured out a build strong enough to solo epic elite content faster than you can say abracadabra, you deserve the fruits of your labor. What I dislike is the idea that all my characters will now be given a power boost just because someone else made something so powerful. I don't understand the idea that "pure class characters aren't powerful enough because there is a multiclass build more powerful than any pure class build." It can be true that both there are multiclass builds that are more powerful than any pure class builds and pure class builds are sufficiently powerful for all of the game's content.
    Last edited by MonadRebelion; 12-04-2013 at 11:04 PM.
    Wizenmann (29th life Completionist Cleric), Diotimae (13th life Tank), Malwida (7th life Rogue Mechanic), Iraenilee (4th life Sorc), Garainth (3rd life Bard), Stirner (3rd life Paladin), and a grip of others. Sole member of Solipsists United on Ghallanda.

  16. #16
    Community Member Teh_Ghoul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    232

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I must have gotten lucky and stayed in that 10%...for every toon.

    Pure is fine if you know how to handle the limitations.
    Please you would have been stronger multi-ed and you know it. That's why you felt the need to bring up the characters limitations. THAT MEANS IT WAS A BAD DECISION.

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,329

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MonadRebelion View Post
    Again, for myself, I don't care if mulitclass builds get nerfed. I think if you figured out a build strong enough to solo epic elite content faster than you can say abracadabra, you deserve the fruits of your labor. What I dislike is the idea that all my characters will now be given a power boost just because someone else made something so powerful. I don't understand the idea that "pure class characters aren't powerful enough because there is a multiclass build more powerful than any pure class build." It can be true that both there are multiclass builds that are more powerful than any pure class builds and pure class builds are sufficiently powerful for all of the game's content.
    As I said, sensible nerfing could be an option, but we havent seen many examples of that. Normally the nerf goes too far, the player-base complains, and then an entire new mechanic is introduced in response to the complaints - ignoring the fact that a sensible nerf from the beginning could have resolved things.

    BTW: do you think pure builds do okay in all of the game's content because they are being carried by the multiclassers?

    I dont recall too many pure builds being used to get the highest DPS/solo EE content/solo raids/etc. so maybe the multiclassers in the group are doing the grunt work and the pures are Hordo'ing their way to ezy-lewt.

  18. #18
    Community Member Teh_Ghoul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    232

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    BTW: do you think pure builds do okay in all of the game's content because they are being carried by the multiclassers?
    yes

  19. #19
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,329

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Ghoul View Post
    yes
    I knew what your response was going to be

    Was asking the guy I was quoting.

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasparion View Post
    As I said, sensible nerfing could be an option, but we havent seen many examples of that. Normally the nerf goes too far, the player-base complains, and then an entire new mechanic is introduced in response to the complaints - ignoring the fact that a sensible nerf from the beginning could have resolved things.

    BTW: do you think pure builds do okay in all of the game's content because they are being carried by the multiclassers?

    I dont recall too many pure builds being used to get the highest DPS/solo EE content/solo raids/etc. so maybe the multiclassers in the group are doing the grunt work and the pures are Hordo'ing their way to ezy-lewt.
    I don't know what exactly to say about whether muticlassers are carrying pure classes all the time. My experience in the game is that the most knowledgeable best geared folks tend to carry the less knowledgeable less geared folks. When people are equally matched then tend to do well together. Maybe you could tell me what it would mean for a multiclasser to be carrying a pure classer. If you are suggesting that pure class characters aren't able to finish epic elite content in a reasonable way without multiclass characters, then I'd say I think you are wrong. Assuming the players behind the characters being equal, I think, multiclassers don't carry pure classers in the specified sense.

    In response to your curiosity about whether or not pure classers are soloing epic elite content all the time I wonder whether many players at all are soloing epic elite content. If the ability to solo epic elite content is in some way the bar we are all supposed to meet, then I suspect the vast majority of players, whatever their builds are, fail to meet this bar. I don't make any kind of demand that players of whatever build be able to solo epic elite content to be sufficiently powerful to be reasonably helpful in a groups that successfully run all of the game's content. I'd like it if you could explain why I should accept this standard, if you think I should. At any rate, there are pure class builds that can solo epic elite content. (You can no doubt find evidence of this on the forums so I will ignore any request to furnish evidence that this is so.) Suppose, however, that it is the case that no pure class build can solo epic elite content. What are we supposed to infer from that? Are we supposed to believe that every pure class build needs to be given a power boost sufficient to solo epic elites like a multiclass build? I wouldn't accept this. It would make the a game boring in my judgment if no reasonably skilled player ever needed anyone's help and that was the way it was supposed to be. This is exactly the kind of thing I'd hate to see happen. Are we supposed to believe multiclass characters need to be nerfed so that, like their pure class counterparts, they are unable to solo epic elite content? While I'd be more on board with this, it really seems unnecessary. As I said before, they did something clever, so let them have their rewards.
    Last edited by MonadRebelion; 12-05-2013 at 01:19 AM.
    Wizenmann (29th life Completionist Cleric), Diotimae (13th life Tank), Malwida (7th life Rogue Mechanic), Iraenilee (4th life Sorc), Garainth (3rd life Bard), Stirner (3rd life Paladin), and a grip of others. Sole member of Solipsists United on Ghallanda.

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload