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  1. #121
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    you have to heal yourself when fighting the green dragon? And if you were a good paladin, wouldn't you intim the dragon onto yourself so the rogue is automatically getting sneak attack damage and not taking damage?




    If you run any high level EE and you stepped into the mission with a good monk, it normally goes like this.
    Monk kills and kills and kills and kills and kills and kills. Paladin gets a kill, LOH. Monk heals self. Monk kills and kills and kills kills and kills and kills kills and kills and kills. Paladin uses LOH and gets a kill.
    I didn't realize there were that many green dragons in EE quests.

    ...or are you talking about killing trash?
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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  2. #122
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I didn't realize there were that many green dragons in EE quests.

    ...or are you talking about killing trash?
    Just trash in general.

    I am wondering if they just forgot to tell people that different classes are their way introducing another difficulty system into the game. Instead of C,N,H,E and EN,EH and EE, they have Monk/Caster as the casual setting and Paladin as the EE setting. That way when there are people complaining about the game being too easy, they tell them to just run a pure paladin tank solo on EE and see how it goes.
    Last edited by elraido; 12-05-2013 at 08:30 AM.
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  3. #123
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    you have to heal yourself when fighting the green dragon? And if you were a good paladin, wouldn't you intim the dragon onto yourself so the rogue is automatically getting sneak attack damage and not taking damage?




    If you run any high level EE and you stepped into the mission with a good monk, it normally goes like this.
    Monk kills and kills and kills and kills and kills and kills. Paladin gets a kill, LOH. Monk heals self. Monk kills and kills and kills kills and kills and kills kills and kills and kills. Paladin uses LOH and gets a kill.
    Ummm...OK. Where do I start with this?

    The rogue dying is no more the fault of my paladin as it was my rogue dying being the fault of the monk. Yeah, like I’m going to sit there and intim every 30 seconds so that the rogue can get backstab damage. Maybe the rogue should look at subtle backstabbing, and thread reduction? I got loads of intim and hate gear on, and a hefty intim score, but half of the problem is either an issue with aggro on the part of DDO, or the fact that the aggro mechanism in SD is so jacked that it makes it near impossible for a tanky pally to get and keep aggro while the full-on DPS swings away.

    I run my pally in EE content. While it isn’t P2W Monk excellence, a pure pally is a very survivable build. It can melee, it can backup heal, it can tank (exceptions noted), and lots of other things. It does what I expect it to do.

    You want to compare paladins and monks, be my guest. One is a F2P class, the other is a revenue generator for Turbine. So which do you think is going to be the killing machine, hummm?

    And spare me the “good monk” conditional. If you are a “good” player, you can make an otherwise “crappy” build workable. I’m beginning to believe that people pay for and play monks mainly because it is an easy way to be successful in the game.

    Try a little challenge now and again. It’ll make you a better player.

    Or “playa,” as the case may be…

  4. #124
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ummm...OK. Where do I start with this?

    The rogue dying is no more the fault of my paladin as it was my rogue dying being the fault of the monk. Yeah, like I’m going to sit there and intim every 30 seconds so that the rogue can get backstab damage. Maybe the rogue should look at subtle backstabbing, and thread reduction? I got loads of intim and hate gear on, and a hefty intim score, but half of the problem is either an issue with aggro on the part of DDO, or the fact that the aggro mechanism in SD is so jacked that it makes it near impossible for a tanky pally to get and keep aggro while the full-on DPS swings away.

    I run my pally in EE content. While it isn’t P2W Monk excellence, a pure pally is a very survivable build. It can melee, it can backup heal, it can tank (exceptions noted), and lots of other things. It does what I expect it to do.

    You want to compare paladins and monks, be my guest. One is a F2P class, the other is a revenue generator for Turbine. So which do you think is going to be the killing machine, hummm?

    And spare me the “good monk” conditional. If you are a “good” player, you can make an otherwise “crappy” build workable. I’m beginning to believe that people pay for and play monks mainly because it is an easy way to be successful in the game.

    Try a little challenge now and again. It’ll make you a better player.

    Or “playa,” as the case may be…

    You MIGHT have to hit intim 2-3 times during the green dragon fight. Odds are you only need to do it once since it increases your threat if you are succesfull....and with two other paladin abilities to generate 1000% and 100% threat, you shouldn't need to hit intim again. And if you expect others to watch their own threat by subtle backstabbing and threat reduction, you wouldn't need intim or incite or threat multipliers. If you are going to be a tank, you need to keep things off of the other party members so they can maximize their abilities. There are only a couple of instances where aggro is messed up in DDO. 98% of the time, it works the way it should. The problem with it is, like mentioned before in EE content....you get the aggro like you are supposed to and it you get a serious beat down like you don't have any AC, DR, PRR, Dodge etc.
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  5. #125
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Risking Elraido's Wrath but can't resist, browsing screenshots

    Sword and Board Paladins : Topping DPS charts every day ™ WE PERSEVERE !

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  6. #126
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    You MIGHT have to hit intim 2-3 times during the green dragon fight. Odds are you only need to do it once since it increases your threat if you are succesfull....and with two other paladin abilities to generate 1000% and 100% threat, you shouldn't need to hit intim again. And if you expect others to watch their own threat by subtle backstabbing and threat reduction, you wouldn't need intim or incite or threat multipliers. If you are going to be a tank, you need to keep things off of the other party members so they can maximize their abilities. There are only a couple of instances where aggro is messed up in DDO. 98% of the time, it works the way it should. The problem with it is, like mentioned before in EE content....you get the aggro like you are supposed to and it you get a serious beat down like you don't have any AC, DR, PRR, Dodge etc.
    Mmmmm…no.

    Intim only works if you are able to keep it running with nice damage scores. And if you are a pally tank SD, it means you are S&B, and your DPS sucks eggs.

    And please don’t suggest mixing SD and THF. That sucks even worse. Been there. Done that. It isn’t worth the investment and effort.

    There is Divine Righteousness that only produces 100% threat generation, and that sucks eggs too. You get a barb laying down astronomical numbers for damage, the threat you generate goes out the window. Maybe you’ll be able to build and equip for 150 – 180% threat with DR…maybe. It still won’t keep that barb from pulling the boss off of you.

    The only thing that I can think of to generate 1000% thread is, maybe, Glorious Stand (trying to do this from memory). And that has too short of a duration, and too long of a cool-down to be all that effective.

    Intim and hate generation was so laughable in its use, that I stopped equipping hate gear. I might use it in certain situations, like the baddies away from a caster for a few moments, but that lasts only so long.

    As for the comments about be doing nothing but pulling aggro: this is a fine example of the “smartest people in the room” finding fault with one player, and ignoring the faults on the other side of the equation. If you are a rogue, it is as much YOUR responsibility to shed and prevent aggro as much as it is the responsibility of the tank to grab it. I make sure that on my rogue, I’ve got at least some thread reduction gear going, and take whatever enhancements to make sure I pull less threat and hate.

    Or, in the other example I highlighted, you should therefore fault the monk because they did not pull aggro off of me, a poor squishy rogue (with some thread reduction already on them). The funny part was that I outlasted the monk, and almost had enough time to rez him had I not fat-fingered and screwed-up the rez. Alas, such is the result when you are not a paid, professional “gamer.”

  7. #127
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Bollocks.

    Haste boost > Damage Boost > Intolerant >Intim with only 10 % Incite and appropriate weapon ( Fang or crafted Hbgob or Celestia or Triple pos ) in Stand Against the Tide, only Treetard or Furyshot from the start would turn the mob. Barbarian would be at the bottom of the chart actually.
    And that was on Stalwart, so no Righteousness. Often in Dreadnought.
    Oh the memories...
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  8. #128
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Bollocks.

    Haste boost > Damage Boost > Intolerant >Intim with only 10 % Incite and appropriate weapon ( Fang or crafted Hbgob or Celestia or Triple pos ) in Stand Against the Tide, only Treetard or Furyshot from the start would turn the mob. Barbarian would be at the bottom of the chart actually.
    And that was on Stalwart, so no Righteousness. Often in Dreadnought.
    Oh the memories...
    Explain in a way that is less cryptic.

  9. #129
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Mmmmm…no.

    Intim only works if you are able to keep it running with nice damage scores. And if you are a pally tank SD, it means you are S&B, and your DPS sucks eggs.

    And please don’t suggest mixing SD and THF. That sucks even worse. Been there. Done that. It isn’t worth the investment and effort.

    There is Divine Righteousness that only produces 100% threat generation, and that sucks eggs too. You get a barb laying down astronomical numbers for damage, the threat you generate goes out the window. Maybe you’ll be able to build and equip for 150 – 180% threat with DR…maybe. It still won’t keep that barb from pulling the boss off of you.

    The only thing that I can think of to generate 1000% thread is, maybe, Glorious Stand (trying to do this from memory). And that has too short of a duration, and too long of a cool-down to be all that effective.

    Intim and hate generation was so laughable in its use, that I stopped equipping hate gear. I might use it in certain situations, like the baddies away from a caster for a few moments, but that lasts only so long.

    As for the comments about be doing nothing but pulling aggro: this is a fine example of the “smartest people in the room” finding fault with one player, and ignoring the faults on the other side of the equation. If you are a rogue, it is as much YOUR responsibility to shed and prevent aggro as much as it is the responsibility of the tank to grab it. I make sure that on my rogue, I’ve got at least some thread reduction gear going, and take whatever enhancements to make sure I pull less threat and hate.

    Or, in the other example I highlighted, you should therefore fault the monk because they did not pull aggro off of me, a poor squishy rogue (with some thread reduction already on them). The funny part was that I outlasted the monk, and almost had enough time to rez him had I not fat-fingered and screwed-up the rez. Alas, such is the result when you are not a paid, professional “gamer.”

    I will say this, I have basically never lost agro when I am trying to actively keep it. Every once in a great while, I will lose it but I will immediately grab it back with an intim. After that, I almost never lose it again. If you aren't using the tools they give you to keep agro, you are doing it wrong. Stuff I use on my guy when I NEED to keep agro
    Improved Sacred Defense: 75%
    Stand Against the Tide: 80%
    Intolerant Blows: 1000%
    Divine Rigteousness: 100%
    EFang: 10,15,20% Can't remember if they stack, I think they stack
    ToD Set: 15%
    Intimidate with Shield: 100%
    There are also a LOT of other items that generate hate....those are the ones I use on my guy.

    If you can't keep up, even with mediocre DPS with that much aggro gen, then you aren't building your toon to hold it.
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  10. #130
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    explain in a way that is less cryptic.
    hit thing

  11. #131
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I've been playing a Paladin since '06 and in my opinion this class has had the most ups and downs of any of the F2P classes.

    For those of us that still enjoy playing are paladin characters it is more to do with subtle nuances than with the current power of the class. While Paladins made early favorites as a melee due mostly to the heavy front loading of Feats and Abilities, it did not keep up with the Fighter.

    My honest feeling is that the Paladin should by natural progression be the best at Defense, slaying Demons/Devils and Undead. The problem that comes about is that defense has little to no meaning to how both aspects of the game are implemented or to the play styles of groups of players. This play style developing as access to more powerful equipment and abilities continues.

    I humbly admit that my Paladins both my Half-Elf Defender and my Bladeforged Knight/Kensai do not put out the same DPS as the top DPS builds (I don't see 3K hits yet but my Bladeforged is getting closer - still lacks gear). But I also don't look at individual base numbers as my only contributing factor.

    What I think would be a good trade-off is if the AC/PRR of using a shield in battle actually mattered more than it does. Currently I can get to a PRR that can eliminate better than 50% of the damage. While that can allow me to survive in places longer (which is needed because I don't do as much damage) it does not allow me to always extend that beyond the ability of someone built with 0 defense and All Offense. Resources are limiting.

    Now, while I cannot solo every Epic Elite yet I have on more than one occasion been appreciated by other members of PuG and Guild EE runs for my abilities to help minimize the resource usage for healing and crowd control, allowing the other party members more freedom to go "NUTS" with DPS. Tanks are not needed to run EE content, but a well played tank can still be a great benefit to a party.

    In short, paladins are not gimped and not optimal for some play styles. But I won't stand in the way of improvement as I believe they should be equal to their melee counterparts, and agree at this time they are not.

  12. #132
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    I will say this, I have basically never lost agro when I am trying to actively keep it. Every once in a great while, I will lose it but I will immediately grab it back with an intim. After that, I almost never lose it again. If you aren't using the tools they give you to keep agro, you are doing it wrong. Stuff I use on my guy when I NEED to keep agro
    Improved Sacred Defense: 75%
    Stand Against the Tide: 80%
    Intolerant Blows: 1000%
    Divine Rigteousness: 100%
    EFang: 10,15,20% Can't remember if they stack, I think they stack
    ToD Set: 15%
    Intimidate with Shield: 100%
    There are also a LOT of other items that generate hate....those are the ones I use on my guy.

    If you can't keep up, even with mediocre DPS with that much aggro gen, then you aren't building your toon to hold it.
    This is what kills me about you guys in the “smartest guys in the group” clique: you think nothing exists below lvl 25 and maxed EDs.

    ToD set?!? Pffth! No one runs ToD any more, never mind flagging for Amrath. What planet are you from?!?

    eFang? Again: Pffth! If I recall correctly, you have to take dragonmarks in order for it to include incite, and those enhancements are better spent on healing amp (HJEAL MEH!).

    Stand against the Tide – epic destiny. Having this depends on whether you’ve had a full set of EDs in the past life, which this toon hadn’t.

    Intolerant Blows – Epic Destiny (tier three, which will not be available if you are running around Kings Forest with a relatively new pally).

    The best you get is Intimidate with a Shield, which is what I do. It doesn’t last. Sorry.

    Thank you for playing.

  13. #133
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    hit thing
    Potato.

  14. #134
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    This is what kills me about you guys in the “smartest guys in the group” clique: you think nothing exists below lvl 25 and maxed EDs.

    ToD set?!? Pffth! No one runs ToD any more, never mind flagging for Amrath. What planet are you from?!?

    eFang? Again: Pffth! If I recall correctly, you have to take dragonmarks in order for it to include incite, and those enhancements are better spent on healing amp (HJEAL MEH!).

    Stand against the Tide – epic destiny. Having this depends on whether you’ve had a full set of EDs in the past life, which this toon hadn’t.

    Intolerant Blows – Epic Destiny (tier three, which will not be available if you are running around Kings Forest with a relatively new pally).

    The best you get is Intimidate with a Shield, which is what I do. It doesn’t last. Sorry.

    Thank you for playing.
    First of all I don't have maxed ED's. I capped out Sentinal, then Shadow Dancer and LD (both of those for permahaste), and worked on a couple more to be able to twist in some things.

    You need to find a new set of people to quest with. All I need to do is ask to go flagging and the guild will say, "Sure."

    Healing amp? I think I have enough of it as it is. I get about 260 from a heal scroll. 100 from cure mod (not serious). Over 1000 from LOH's.

    Stand against the tide has nothing to do with maxed destinies either. It is just a stance you can be in from U.S.

    Intolerant Blows. If you are running around in the forest and are in U.S....then there is no issue since it is only a tier III ability.
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  15. #135
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    First of all I don't have maxed ED's. I capped out Sentinal, then Shadow Dancer and LD (both of those for permahaste), and worked on a couple more to be able to twist in some things.
    Whole lotta dancin’ goin’ on here.

    Great you maxed Sentinal. This may come as a shock to you (and you might want to sit down before you read any further) but not everyone in King’s Forest has that maxed.

    Deep breaths…deep breaths…

    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    You need to find a new set of people to quest with. All I need to do is ask to go flagging and the guild will say, "Sure."
    Gosh, that’s helpful advice (not).

    Moving on…

    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    Healing amp? I think I have enough of it as it is. I get about 260 from a heal scroll. 100 from cure mod (not serious). Over 1000 from LOH's.
    Irrelevant. The point was that with one of your lovely incite-inducing weapons, I’d have to garner 3 dragon marks for get maybe 15% threat.

    Yeah…that’s a good tradeoff for healing amp (not).

    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    Stand against the tide has nothing to do with maxed destinies either. It is just a stance you can be in from U.S.
    Assuming that in King’s Forest, which maxes at lvl 23-ish (which is where the Green Dragon in question is located). You may or may not have that available to you depending on your level.

    Intolerant Blows. If you are running around in the forest and are in U.S....then there is no issue since it is only a tier III ability.[/QUOTE]

    Assuming that in King’s Forest, which maxes at lvl 23-ish (which is where the Green Dragon in question is located). You may or may not have that available to you depending on your level.

    Oh wait…didn’t I say that already?

    Gonna tell me to solo ToD to get the pally set now?

    Do me a favor…stop giving me advice.

  16. #136
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Whole lotta dancin’ goin’ on here.

    Great you maxed Sentinal. This may come as a shock to you (and you might want to sit down before you read any further) but not everyone in King’s Forest has that maxed.

    Deep breaths…deep breaths…



    Gosh, that’s helpful advice (not).

    Moving on…



    Irrelevant. The point was that with one of your lovely incite-inducing weapons, I’d have to garner 3 dragon marks for get maybe 15% threat.

    Yeah…that’s a good tradeoff for healing amp (not).



    Assuming that in King’s Forest, which maxes at lvl 23-ish (which is where the Green Dragon in question is located). You may or may not have that available to you depending on your level.

    Intolerant Blows. If you are running around in the forest and are in U.S....then there is no issue since it is only a tier III ability.
    Assuming that in King’s Forest, which maxes at lvl 23-ish (which is where the Green Dragon in question is located). You may or may not have that available to you depending on your level.

    Oh wait…didn’t I say that already?

    Gonna tell me to solo ToD to get the pally set now?

    Do me a favor…stop giving me advice.[/QUOTE]

    If you don't like the efang, go get a:
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  17. #137
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    Default Sweet little troll

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post

    TLR - I troll because I care.
    AWWWWWWN such a sweet troll ^^

  18. #138
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elraido View Post
    I will say this, I have basically never lost agro when I am trying to actively keep it. Every once in a great while, I will lose it but I will immediately grab it back with an intim. After that, I almost never lose it again. If you aren't using the tools they give you to keep agro, you are doing it wrong. Stuff I use on my guy when I NEED to keep agro
    Improved Sacred Defense: 75%
    Stand Against the Tide: 80%
    Intolerant Blows: 1000%
    Divine Rigteousness: 100%
    EFang: 10,15,20% Can't remember if they stack, I think they stack
    ToD Set: 15%
    Intimidate with Shield: 100%
    There are also a LOT of other items that generate hate....those are the ones I use on my guy.

    If you can't keep up, even with mediocre DPS with that much aggro gen, then you aren't building your toon to hold it.
    I remember before I tr'd my toon out of paladin I often tanked the TO in FOT and hardly had problems with aggro, I often ran in in LD or FOTW but only switched to sentinel for FOT was 2wf but did S&B for tanking, sometimes I even tanked in Fotw when I went in as dps but the other TO tank was gash. Most of the FOT was on EH though only ever did a few EE's, also tanked the stormreaver too, but after a while I stayed in Fotw for more dps so I could prep more easily on my own. Though I much prefer the dps I have as a fighter/monk/pally over just being mainly pally with 2 monk splash, it was an old out dated build as I had left the game then just came back.

    good thing was I was a self healing tank on either boss.

  19. #139
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    Lies.

    Game says - Paladin solo ability - Good.
    Monk solo ability - Good.
    Sorcerer solo ability - bad.

    Therefore both monks and paladins are equal, and much stronker than sorcs.

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