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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovrad View Post
    Have you not read the OP at all? That is not what people are doing and still struggle to get half the CoVs in a complete life. Right now the only way to get enough CoV is to farm impossible demands and rusted blades daily for weeks, because running quests on EH at level while ERing is not enough.
    This is what I do every day now. I log in my two level 28s and I run EE Rusted blades and EH impossible demands. I throw in an EH Unquiet Graves if no one else is on yet (which is happening far more frequently nowadays).

    It. Is. Awful.

    I am absolutely sick of it.

    I ran all of MOTU on EH for a diversion and managed to get 491 comms out of that.

    I have 3000 coms now. There is no way I am buying an epic heart when I get to 4200. It is not even worth it for the work I put in. I am drastically rethinking my plans at this point.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As stated, we used the XP that players were actually earning from live gameplay. We used data, not formulas.
    Yea, something is way off. Either I and everyone I know are doing it completely (not just a little but, but totally) different than every.single.other.person playing this game, or you data is off.

    Is this the same data the showed Saga's were popular enough and a good place to introduce COV's?

  3. #123
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As previously stated, Ellis Dee's post from some time ago outlined the basic process we used, as previously linked in this thread. But here's another summary:

    We took the XP earned by players for all the quests in at each level, 20-28. We divided this "XP/quest" into how much XP is required for each level.

    That determined how many quests players would run for each level, 20-28, presuming a variety of quests running EH, at or very close to their level. That distribution of variety and reward for higher level content is something we chose to reward. We were not trying to match existing play patterns across all players. We also don't have an inherent desire to increase the rewards for quests that are already rewarding, usually in terms of XP (which still have plenty of reasons to be run for many characters).

    Taking how many quests per level, and deciding one what we thought was reasonable difference between N/H/E, we assigned Commendations Per Quest (per level) and then discovered the target number was 4200.

    Most of that isn't really getting at the issue, of course, and has been said before. I don't want to emphasize this as being especially important if players are still unhappy. But since there's been repeated erroneous assumptions it seems worthwhile to repeatedly dispel some of them.

    Pretty sure the only erroneous assumptions being made are on your side of the equation.

    You clam to love "tough choices". Am I being given a "tough choice" as to which part of this whole epic TR fiasco I hate the most? Because it's REALLY hard to pick the worst thing, considering the whole thing is FUBAR. It's like being asked if I want to be punched in the face or in the stomach. Sure one might suck less than the other, but I'm still getting punched no matter what.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As stated, we used the XP that players were actually earning from live gameplay. We used data, not formulas.
    Except that you've still made this a system which forces players to read your mind about what and how to play. Of course there will be those that use a bunch of trial and error to figure out what and when and how to get the most CoV per life, but most of us will still say to heck with that and play what we LIKE. Emphasis PLAY and LIKE. It seems that your system is ignoring that demographic, making it overly punitive to those of us that want to play our own way.

    As has been said in numerous threads, referencing several other games, with an eye to your own microtransaction model, there should not be artificial barriers in-game to Reincarnation. And that includes your EXTRA pricey Karma system. Why on earth do you feel its necessary to place so many hurdles in our reincarnation paths? If next year's plans included a TON of end-game content to focus on, maybe we wouldn't care so much. As it stands, the insanely high XP, Valour, Karma, and off-destiny/off-sphere play time is making this system a non-starter for many of us.

    You say you're willing to re-visit the plans and the numbers. Honestly you should (IMO) rethink the entire strategy. Remove the barriers, they're not an incentive to buy Hearts. And I certainly hope that you've not put all your sales hopes on Heart Sales. Shift that focus to other microtrans sources of income like XP and Content, and REMOVE the barriers to end-game reincarnation.

    Just SCRAP every single mechanism that causes us to grind for any form of reincarnation. Focus on this number: 10 hours extra playtime at cap to acquire Reinc mats. Done. That way no one needs to sacrifice any rewards (including the reward of playing how one likes), in order to MAYBE have enough mats to reinc when they reach cap (both level cap and ED/Sphere cap).

    tl ; dr: Too many artificial, contrived barriers to your only end-game, replay value mechanic. Remove them and let us have FUN instead.
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  5. #125
    Community Member Ovrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As previously stated, Ellis Dee's post from some time ago outlined the basic process we used, as previously linked in this thread. But here's another summary:

    We took the XP earned by players for all the quests in at each level, 20-28. We divided this "XP/quest" into how much XP is required for each level.

    That determined how many quests players would run for each level, 20-28, presuming a variety of quests running EH, at or very close to their level. That distribution of variety and reward for higher level content is something we chose to reward. We were not trying to match existing play patterns across all players. We also don't have an inherent desire to increase the rewards for quests that are already rewarding, usually in terms of XP (which still have plenty of reasons to be run for many characters).

    Taking how many quests per level, and deciding one what we thought was reasonable difference between N/H/E, we assigned Commendations Per Quest (per level) and then discovered the target number was 4200.

    Most of that isn't really getting at the issue, of course, and has been said before. I don't want to emphasize this as being especially important if players are still unhappy. But since there's been repeated erroneous assumptions it seems worthwhile to repeatedly dispel some of them.
    Well there's your problem, you got your stats by assuming we'd be only running lv 25+ quests while leveling from 25 to 28, but you forgot to take into account that there's barely no quests in that range. That biggest chunk of where we're supposed to get our comms is almost non-existent. So we have to run lower quests unless we run 1-2 quests per day.
    We want more Monster Manuals.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    That distribution of variety and reward for higher level content is something we chose to reward.
    Simple logic indicates that you could do one OR the other. There are very few high level quests. Higher levels require more XP. That means running those quests under your model MUCH MUCH more then other content. That is NOT encouraging variety.
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  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As previously stated, Ellis Dee's post from some time ago outlined the basic process we used, as previously linked in this thread. But here's another summary:

    We took the XP earned by players for all the quests in at each level, 20-28. We divided this "XP/quest" into how much XP is required for each level.

    That determined how many quests players would run for each level, 20-28, presuming a variety of quests running EH, at or very close to their level. That distribution of variety and reward for higher level content is something we chose to reward. We were not trying to match existing play patterns across all players. We also don't have an inherent desire to increase the rewards for quests that are already rewarding, usually in terms of XP (which still have plenty of reasons to be run for many characters).

    Taking how many quests per level, and deciding one what we thought was reasonable difference between N/H/E, we assigned Commendations Per Quest (per level) and then discovered the target number was 4200.

    Most of that isn't really getting at the issue, of course, and has been said before. I don't want to emphasize this as being especially important if players are still unhappy. But since there's been repeated erroneous assumptions it seems worthwhile to repeatedly dispel some of them.
    And that is why it's flawed, since you didn't take in account what quest most people play and you reward upper level quests more, to me it seems more as an incentive for people to buy the xpack and run those quests than a system that reward any type playing.

    This is also where your idea breaks down, if you take this data and make an average base on how many quests should be run for x amount of valor, but you reward valor disproportionately to all higher end quests where most people keep running a blend of all type of quests including some okay lower end epics, you can NEVER get a similar number to what you based your entire scale on.

    In other words, you broke your own idea of hitting 4200 valor doing x amount of quests by this disproportionate distribution of what quests gives what.

    Either change the amount needed so we're closer to our goal when we finally cap or at least make the valor drop more uniformly at level - that way we're rewarded when we level up and have the incentive to continue doing high end quests at cap for valor.

  8. #128
    Community Member Ovrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Seaglen View Post
    This is what I do every day now. I log in my two level 28s and I run EE Rusted blades and EH impossible demands. I throw in an EH Unquiet Graves if no one else is on yet (which is happening far more frequently nowadays).

    It. Is. Awful.

    I am absolutely sick of it.

    I ran all of MOTU on EH for a diversion and managed to get 491 comms out of that.

    I have 3000 coms now. There is no way I am buying an epic heart when I get to 4200. It is not even worth it for the work I put in. I am drastically rethinking my plans at this point.
    Yup, sums up my experience as well. I was bored out my skull farming quests for that fable 4200. Running other quests barely nets you any CoVs. It's not fun at all, and you I'll admit you made way further than me before giving up. Even watching paint dries feels more rewarding because you can see the advancement, unlike CoVs...
    We want more Monster Manuals.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    +1 to you for all of your hard work keeping track and posting all of this. I'll also add this quote from developer Vargouille:

    "Our current plan is that Iconic and Epic Hearts of Wood each require 4200 Commendations of Valor. This is close to our estimate of how many Commendations of Valor you would get from playing Epic Hard, non-ransacked quests and usually taking Commendations as the end reward, based on how many quests characters would finish between levels 20-28 (again, on Epic Hard)."

    For me on one character I got about 500 comms of valor from level 20-28 and on another I got about 1000. Very fishy....
    And here is The translation of Vargouille's quote:

    "Our current plan is to make the acquisition of commendations of valor so time intensive (grindy) that it encourages store sales of iconic and epic hearts of wood. However, my boss has told me that I must lie to the players' faces and tell them the opposite. Sorry, my job is on the line, so I am going to do the best to lie and keep a straight face at the same time."

    And i think this approach is contrary to Turbine's best interests. TRing is a hamster wheel. You WANT the hamsters to be able to get on that wheel over and over again with as little impediment as possible. If the hamsters have to smash down the door to get to the wheel, many of them are likely to find other wheels.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As previously stated, Ellis Dee's post from some time ago outlined the basic process we used, as previously linked in this thread. But here's another summary:

    We took the XP earned by players for all the quests in at each level, 20-28. We divided this "XP/quest" into how much XP is required for each level.

    That determined how many quests players would run for each level, 20-28, presuming a variety of quests running EH, at or very close to their level. That distribution of variety and reward for higher level content is something we chose to reward. We were not trying to match existing play patterns across all players. We also don't have an inherent desire to increase the rewards for quests that are already rewarding, usually in terms of XP (which still have plenty of reasons to be run for many characters).

    Taking how many quests per level, and deciding one what we thought was reasonable difference between N/H/E, we assigned Commendations Per Quest (per level) and then discovered the target number was 4200.

    Most of that isn't really getting at the issue, of course, and has been said before. I don't want to emphasize this as being especially important if players are still unhappy. But since there's been repeated erroneous assumptions it seems worthwhile to repeatedly dispel some of them.

    But WHY??? Why did you feel it was necessary to reward any one particular play style, which will actually only reward a very very narrow range of players, leaving out the majority of players and playstyles? Reincarnation should NOT be considered a reward, and mosdef not a reward for a narrow method of play. Reincarnation should be nearly free to EVERYone, to encourage people to replay old content, taking the pressure off of you to churn out new content at a furious pace to keep people playing.

    Reinc = Reward, is just a terrible starting point for your whole idiom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Towrn
    ...when the worst thing that happens when you make a mistake at your job is someone complains on the internet, you probably care a little less!

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As previously stated, Ellis Dee's post from some time ago outlined the basic process we used, as previously linked in this thread. But here's another summary:

    We took the XP earned by players for all the quests in at each level, 20-28. We divided this "XP/quest" into how much XP is required for each level.

    That determined how many quests players would run for each level, 20-28, presuming a variety of quests running EH, at or very close to their level. That distribution of variety and reward for higher level content is something we chose to reward. We were not trying to match existing play patterns across all players. We also don't have an inherent desire to increase the rewards for quests that are already rewarding, usually in terms of XP (which still have plenty of reasons to be run for many characters).

    Taking how many quests per level, and deciding one what we thought was reasonable difference between N/H/E, we assigned Commendations Per Quest (per level) and then discovered the target number was 4200.

    Most of that isn't really getting at the issue, of course, and has been said before. I don't want to emphasize this as being especially important if players are still unhappy. But since there's been repeated erroneous assumptions it seems worthwhile to repeatedly dispel some of them.
    Your last paragraph is the important one, and I have to ask out of my curiosity if any thought or effort is being put into diversifying the reward systems at capped xp, or offering any new avenues of reward. I gave a few suggestions back on page 2, but they're far from the only options. Modifying comms might be a necessary step somewhere along the line, but I feel that it fails to address the bigger issue here: capped play grinding fatigue.

    So, to restate, will there be any changes to the way that players are rewarded for playing epic content at capped xp?

    Whether this is in terms of comms, or anything else.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As previously stated, Ellis Dee's post from some time ago outlined the basic process we used, as previously linked in this thread. But here's another summary:
    Btw, thanks for your responses, it's very good to finally have a conversation.

    We took the XP earned by players for all the quests in at each level, 20-28. We divided this "XP/quest" into how much XP is required for each level.
    This seems kinda convoluted to me? The XP required per level is readily available data, so I think you meant to say something else, I'm just not sure what.

    That determined how many quests players would run for each level, 20-28, presuming a variety of quests running EH, at or very close to their level.
    Why, given the severely limited number of available high level quests, was this assumption made? Based on the holiday letter from Producer Rowan, even a YEAR from now the number will be unpleasantly small, causing people to run lots of quests well below their level. This is compounded by the fact that many people run quests in order to get specific items like shards and seals for esos. I'm sory, this assumption is inherently flawed.
    Also, how often in this calculation did you assume people would NOT take covs? Even today I took a legendairy victory instead of the 15 covs en EH Don't Drink the Water gave me, and there are lots of other people in guilds not yet at level 100. Or say a named item, or a stars-aligned random item appears in the list... How often did you guestimate this would happen?

    That distribution of variety and reward for higher level content is something we chose to reward. We were not trying to match existing play patterns across all players. We also don't have an inherent desire to increase the rewards for quests that are already rewarding, usually in terms of XP (which still have plenty of reasons to be run for many characters).
    Again, sorry, but that may be what you intended, it sure is not what you did. People doing as you suggest fall seriously short of getting 4200 comms, while those farming a few specific quests ad nasuam get their heart with significanly less effort (other than the serious eyebleed). ID, RB etc are not exactly high level either. Yes, higher level quests give more covs, but since they also require a LOT more time to finish, the extra covs are insignificant. If I want to ER, that's a goal I work towards. If my choice is to get 50 covs (random number) from 1 high level quest that takes an hour to finish, or 3 low level quests I can do in 5 minutes each, guess what quests I'm going to run?

    Taking how many quests per level, and deciding one what we thought was reasonable difference between N/H/E, we assigned Commendations Per Quest (per level) and then discovered the target number was 4200.
    I strongly suspect that what you considdered reasonable is different from what we the players would think reasonable, but that is a different discussion I think. The flaws I see (and I think I'm not alone here) should be adressed first. Heck, you even spent the time and effort to create *other* rewards for covs, and they're not cheap either. This suggests you think people will have more covs than they can spend on ERing?! Not exactly the situation as we see it...

    Most of that isn't really getting at the issue, of course, and has been said before. I don't want to emphasize this as being especially important if players are still unhappy. But since there's been repeated erroneous assumptions it seems worthwhile to repeatedly dispel some of them.
    Dispelling erroneous assumptions is always good. I do maintain however that since we players get vastly different numbers when playing than you got when calculating, there *must* be actual errors somewhere.

    THank you again for the communication.

    Greetz,
    Red Orm

  13. #133
    Community Member Draxis's Avatar
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    Oh I see! None of you people bought Shadowfell. THATS where you get your best vcomm / min.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draxis View Post
    Oh I see! None of you people bought Shadowfell. THATS where you get your best vcomm / min.
    Actually, they are no where near the best comms per minute. A tiny handful of MOTU quests give the best comms per minute. Both will consume your soul, and could drive you to another game, but the MOTU route is quicker in terms of comms/min -and that at least lets you do something else with your available time due to ransack.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draxis View Post
    Oh I see! None of you people bought Shadowfell. THATS where you get your best vcomm / min.
    LOL WINNING!

    I think the change to allow heart fragments is a good start to allow multi character farming; however the problem there becomes players having to farm with all their characters for one characters benefit.

    I think having the exchange be double what you had to essentially do for heroic tr is perfectly fine. The quests would give the same amount of components as the heroic tr hear components, just you have to farm twice as many to get an epic heart; in relation. The quests should drop relatively the same number of comps as their counterparts do for a heroic tr heart.

    I haven't participated in any epics since I last tr'd before U20; so I do not know what the heroic grind Is currently. But if it is similar to what it was '20 etokens', then an equivalent should be '40 etokens' for epic tr.

  16. #136
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Seaglen View Post
    Actually, they are no where near the best comms per minute. A tiny handful of MOTU quests give the best comms per minute. Both will consume your soul, and could drive you to another game, but the MOTU route is quicker in terms of comms/min -and that at least lets you do something else with your available time due to ransack.
    Glad I don't use spreadsheets to plan out my game time.

    No wonder your soul is being consumed when you have turned a game into a ratio.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draxis View Post
    Oh I see! None of you people bought Shadowfell. THATS where you get your best vcomm / min.
    Yeah, pretty much.

    And second to shadowfell would be the other high level quests in eveningstar, and gianthold.

    Druids curse chain is 21 comms per quest on ehard, and they are all short, 6,7 min quests. 21*4=84
    High road is 24 comms par quest and all of them except detour are short 6,7 min quests. 5*24=120
    Gianthold walk ups are also 24 per quest, and are also short 6,7 min quests, faster in a group that can split. 6*24=144

    But if people are determined to run von3 and von5 and wiz king twice a day each, and get 20 something comms/4 hours... Must be a conspiracy to get them to buy hearts.
    Last edited by Lonnbeimnech; 12-05-2013 at 12:59 PM.

  18. #138
    Community Member Draxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Seaglen View Post
    Actually, they are no where near the best comms per minute. A tiny handful of MOTU quests give the best comms per minute. Both will consume your soul, and could drive you to another game, but the MOTU route is quicker in terms of comms/min -and that at least lets you do something else with your available time due to ransack.
    I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek about it. But no, you're absolutely wrong. Aside from the two newest quests, the Shadowfell quests are the highest level quests in the game right now. If you want the most vcomms, you run the highest level quests. Impossible Demands just ain't gonna cut it. I can solo the entire Wheloon chain in less than 2 hrs on EH. Less than 3 hrs with a group on EE.

  19. #139
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Seaglen View Post
    Actually, they are no where near the best comms per minute. A tiny handful of MOTU quests give the best comms per minute. Both will consume your soul, and could drive you to another game, but the MOTU route is quicker in terms of comms/min -and that at least lets you do something else with your available time due to ransack.
    OK, they are better comms per min, but no where near the best comms per day.

    ID and Rusted blades on EE is 65 comms, thats going to take ages if you only hit those 2.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    OK, they are better comms per min, but no where near the best comms per day.

    ID and Rusted blades on EE is 65 comms, thats going to take ages if you only hit those 2.
    And indeed it does take ages, but at least I get to do something else with my time.

    Edit: he may be a troll, but I can't tell him what to do.
    Last edited by Katie_Seaglen; 12-05-2013 at 12:59 PM.

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