Quite aside from the fact that EE doesn't drop enough more CoVs than EH, I think part of it is simply the way Elite versus Hard is treated throughout the game: as 1 level higher. When in terms of difficulty, it is usually much more than that.
As for wanting (well, not minding anyway) ERing to take even longer than it already does, that will not happen untill there actually are enough quests that you CAN do them all only once and be ready to ER<, and STILL have lots of quests you never touched. Which kinda is the opposite of what we have now.
This is just a suggestion. Please don't flame me because I entertain the idea of reducing returns in certain situations!
I'm not actually in favour of totally removing BBs in any case. I personally think that they are a good thing in general, but need some significant tweaking due to the negative impact on grouping and pugs. I just possibly, now, think they could also be tweaked so that they apply to epics in a different (and just possibly better) way than providing XP at those levels. A 50% boost to CoV returns for your elite streak on epic instead sounds apt to me - You're brave! You're valorous! We should commend you!
<seemingly offensive Army of Darkness quote>
Last edited by rest; 12-05-2013 at 10:54 AM.
For me it boils down to the sheer time it takes to get these things. Even if you are a BAMF and can farm 200 comms a day, you're still talking 21 days. For most of us who work and have real lives outside of these hallowed halls, 100 is a more reasonable for a 3-5 hour stretch of time, extending it to a month and a half -- and that's assuming you don't take a day or two off in there. And given the proof the others have provided, XP will cap long before you hit the requisite comms to ETR/ITR. That means you'll be looking at nothing but mindless grinding to get enough comms to ETR/ITR.
Varg, thank you for your replies; frequent communication is important. I think there should be a re-analysis done, and post that analysis before it goes to production so we can have some input on it. I know Turbine is in business to make money; every corporation is. But the 4200-VComm benchmark comes across as a ... thumb in the eye to those who don't have hundreds of dollars floating around to buy hearts every time we want to TR.
You must somehow have determined how much the average player must run each quest (if running only at EH and at level) in order to get enough xp (and karma) to hit level 28, and based on that have calculated what you thought would be a good amount of comms per quest.
If you truly had used no formula at all, you would perforce have just plucked random numbers out of thin air, and I don't think you did *that*
Similarly, statistic were involved in your calculations simply because, as has been pointed out, there ARE no level 25 quests, and so you can not HAVE XP numbers from PCs running those at level.
So, please, share with us what formula was used, and what assumptions where included (as an example, what exactly IS the "average player"? How much game time does he clock on a daily basis? How much actual at level questing time? And so on).
would u please consider distribute the comms on the completion of the level instead of end reward.. please!!!!! (the way it is now u are killing the end reward completely.. )
also just to give some extra info..
i took my toon from 20 to 28.. playing whatever quest i see on the lfm.. not any particular farming... and took all comms on end reward except when i saw a impressive or legendary (yeah we are still lvling up our guild) and ended up with 1200 comms at 28...
I know your calculations could lead to that 4.2k number but did u guys consider ppl taking a tome as end reward a legendary.. or that nice item that was missing.. and so on?
abt the Von5... : I played that quest abt 8 times b4 i get tho lv28... and i did so not coz of the xp.. but to play with my buddies.. its such a nice raid.. and thankfully still being played.. coz most raids dont.. at least on the PUG scene... believe it or nor u have to consider at least a 20x run on that raid.. coz ppl want to farm items from there.. not only XP.. i still love my red dragonscale.. and I still need to find my shard of SOS so.. think abt it.. i will keep playing that raid even at lv cap for those items.. and most important fun..
once again please consider putting the comms at end of the quest like the challenges do.. that way u will still lep ppl choose their end reward and skip that lame comms hanging on the inventory spaces.. that need to click on the bag and ask it to gather..
and please keep up this communication.. (very nice on that )
In any case, this is another idea I'd support - currently gaining an epic level is utterly demoralising. You just don't get things often enough, at least in terms of a choice in your advancement. adding a fixed number of comms based on the level as a top up to normal quest rewards would be a nice touch.
Also echo the comment that currently CoVs are so desperately needed that I too take the approach of 'always take the comms unless there's a legendary' - but either way I never take the loot anymore. Heck I dont' even look at it now, I just check comms vs renown and move on. Providing top ups "on character advancement" would lessen the pressure there.
There are a lot of questions about how much time should it take to grind out a heart, but I've seen very little in terms of answers.
Here's some data that at least provides a ball park number:
Despite all the goals that have been stated, the most efficient way to earn COVs for me is still by farming Rusted Blades and or Impossible Demands. The structure and efficiency of the farming is different, but it still the same quests giving the best results.
I currently have 7 toons who are capable of running EE Rusted Blades and EH Impossible demands. It takes on average about 12 minutes to run those (including all run times to quests then to turn ins and back to log out in the Eveningstar cavern so that I'm ready for the next circuit.
My casters can do both on EE and in less time, my monks can do Rusted on EE but EE impossible demands takes to long for my patience, so I just do EH. For simplicity I'll assume 50 COV's (EE Rusted + EH ID=5-0 COV's). My casters generate 65, but occasionally I take a good set of wraps or a legendary.
7 Toons can run it
12 Minutes per run
50 COV's generated
A full session takes 84 (7*12) minutes
And Yields 350(7*50) COV's
4200 COMS/350 COVs= 12 sessions
12 Sessions * 84 Minutes per session /60 Minutes=16.8 hours
There's trade-offs here, skipping EH Impossible Demands would shorten the number of hours, but spread the fewer hours over more sessions. I could run some of my Mules (Bladeforged Sorcs) up and just run more EE Rusted blades and that would be a lot more efficient (roughly 12 hours to generate 4200 COVs).
I'm not doing this daily, but doing it 2 or 3 times a week will generate enough Heart Seeds to complete the COV's my main is accumulating while leveling.
Obviously this works because I've got lots of toons, but am focusing on past lives for one at a time.
Actually Vargouille, that is a question:
did your data and calculations factor in or contain any assumption about whether players would ever choose anything other than CoVs?
I mean, if there's an assumption that players will always take comms, then you may as well remove the end rewards from epic. Obviously I'm not in favour of that, but there needs to be some factoring for the idea that players should be able to not select CoVs say, 50% of the time (or some other arbitrary figure plucked out of the air ). if you did that, then folks who really do just want that heart and focus on nothing else probably will succeed, and the rest of us mere mortals would still be in with a reasonable shot (particularly with some of the other ideas I've suggested I like over the last few pages, cos only my blessing on those suggestions matters, natch )
We're having a discussion back and forth, but both sides seem to have completely different data. Turbine, if you believe our data is incorrect, just post your data rather than simply repeating "Turbine is right, players are wrong." without any supporting evidence. This heavy handed our way or the highway type of attitude isn't helping anyone feel any better, though I'm sure you feel it's necessary in order to keep the amount of coms realistically gained per life at around 2000 or so on average.
My first ETR life with 2 30% 6 hour pots earned me approximately 2000 coms on an EH streak to 28. I then earned another 800 after capping and the feeling of slogging along for coms is a very negative experience, at least for me. I despised it. So I broke down and bought a couple more hearts while they were on sale. My second life is on par for about 2500 coms at cap, nowhere close to 4200 per life. I'll use the hearts I have, but I have no intention of grinding for coms after capping again. I'll either continue with my regular play routine and not worry about ETR or get bored and move on. I'd like to enjoy the ETR system, but I'll not be paying to play every life. At my rate of acquisition I'll be paying 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 lives. Isn't this the entire reason leveling sigils were removed years ago?
At the end of the day, you have to realize you still have a problem here. Yes you need to make money, but not if it's going to produce such negative feelings from your playerbase. Even if you think you're right, if you have this many upset players, it doesn't matter what you think. You need to rethink your actions.
Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen
the XP that players are actually earning and running quests at level aren't equivalent.
I would make the argument that there aren't enough quests at any given highish epic level (24+) to allow for running them solely, without running quests under your level. what this does is skew the whole com gaining curve to the disadvantage of the player, because, as you've previously stated, you've planned it so high level quests would be much more rewarding in coms than lower level ones.
so as a player, you log in, run the 3-4 quests that are at your level, and... ?
either log off, to be repeated tomorrow, ad nauseum
keep running at level quests, gaining no more coms, just xp
run varied lower level quests, still gaining coms and xp, but now you won't reach your mark.
and here is where your theory went off the rails. players who want to play the game will not achieve their goals.
their best course of action is to play LESS.
please rethink things.
Of course a formula was used. You put that live data into a formula somewhere to reach the 4200 number. Nor is the description of how that live data is clear at all either.
The right way to have done this...
Earn X comms for X xp, automatically awarded when XP earned. 6.6 Million XP earned = One heart. You want other goodies run more stuff (like pots and whatever in the future).
If some developer does not like how xp rewards work now well let it go or adjust that directly...not like you guys did not do a lot of that this past update anyways.
Proud Recipient of At least 8 Negative Rep From NA Threads.
We took the XP earned by players for all the quests in at each level, 20-28. We divided this "XP/quest" into how much XP is required for each level.
That determined how many quests players would run for each level, 20-28, presuming a variety of quests running EH, at or very close to their level. That distribution of variety and reward for higher level content is something we chose to reward. We were not trying to match existing play patterns across all players. We also don't have an inherent desire to increase the rewards for quests that are already rewarding, usually in terms of XP (which still have plenty of reasons to be run for many characters).
Taking how many quests per level, and deciding one what we thought was reasonable difference between N/H/E, we assigned Commendations Per Quest (per level) and then discovered the target number was 4200.
Most of that isn't really getting at the issue, of course, and has been said before. I don't want to emphasize this as being especially important if players are still unhappy. But since there's been repeated erroneous assumptions it seems worthwhile to repeatedly dispel some of them.
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