The system needs a lot of improvements, to shamelessly quote myself:
The system needs a lot of improvements, to shamelessly quote myself:
Last edited by Ovrad; 12-04-2013 at 07:44 PM.
We want more Monster Manuals.
I don't think they ever mentioned that you should be able to earn a epic heart in 3 hours like you can for a heroic heart.
When you Epic TR you do not get Bravery bonuses nor do you get first time bonuses nor do you get favor cleared. These do not reset, so second time through 20-28 you will not earn XP as fast. Therefore earn more COV's from 20-28 on a life after ETR vs a life of 20-28 after a heroic tr (or first life).
Last edited by merridyan; 12-04-2013 at 08:01 PM.
The model quoted above is, I'm afraid, not an accurate representation of the experienced reality of playing from 20-28. As commented elsewhere, it completely ignores xp from non-first run quests and requires players to run each quest only once in a day. However, many people like to gain xp from wilderness areas, from running quests more than once, from challenges, and from optionals.
As it stands, the system you are using for CoVs conflicts with that which provides XP and poorly. To do it well, we'd be able to garner the require cost of an E-heart in the same amount of time/quests that would normally cap a character. In other words, running to cap would either be fast, xp based or slow, CoV based. I believe the best way for you to create what you appear to want - players running all content - is to include higher CoV rewards as saga end rewards, in addition to quest rewards.
Oh and I really like that you took someone's post who is playing spreadsheets instead of DDO. I went from 16-28 in the last week. I have 1,445 comms in my bag. In the actual game, not a theorycraft exercise for funsies.
Last edited by rest; 12-04-2013 at 08:47 PM.
1st) Not many players are going to run EVERY epic quest even once nevermind 3 times on EH
2nd) there is no room in that calculation for Wilderness Areas (some XP is going to come from these)
3rd) We are going to be raiding so not counting the XP in these is off
4th) No room in the calculation for Saga XP (you know we are going to take the XP if there are not any skill tomes we need)
Take a look at the actual amount of COV gained by players leveling from 20-28 IN GAME there are a ton of posts with REAL NUMBERS.
It makes running a cap class still appealing rather than feeling like you're wasting your time and XP.
Toons on Orien:
Daemonav Atreides: WF artificer (TR 2/14)////Irullan Atreides: human FvS (TR 2/?!?)////Lorrellei Atreides: human ice/acid sorcerer////Aliademon Atreides: elf PM necro/enchant wizzie (TR 2/8)
Your rhetoric is. It is simply - you cannot epic TR without a heart first. Therefore we discount the toon that has already TR'd from the calculation. I put out some numbers to combat the false numbers that Varg had latched on to.
The numbers I put out are not accurate, but they are to illustrate that he is way off (as is EllisDee).
And it wouldn't take just 3 hours to farm up 1500 comms.
Last edited by DrNuegebauer; 12-04-2013 at 09:17 PM.
This really does need to be revamped and changed. I've tr'd 2 times into Iconic's the past 2 weeks and stayed 28 and ran EE content for 1 week as well, in the time of running like mad for XP and EE content I still have yet to break 2k CoV. This was all on the same toon btw. At least either lower the goal of required Comm's or make it not as bad a grind. As it stands now, I for one wont tr into Iconic or Epic TR again until the number required for them is lowered.
Okay, so as of like 5 minutes ago xp capped at 28. I stopped recording each progress after this post was made. But the last 1.5 levels was EStar challenges, Von3x2(daily for the three days it took me to get the last bit of xp), a couple Devil Assault, a couple Wiz Kings, one Offering of Blood, EE Von 2,3, EH Fall of Truth, EH Von5-6, and Study in Sable EH. Might be missing one or two, but really does it matter? The point being I did spread out and hit nearly every single bit of content and didnt just stick to high xp/min quests and even that falls way short of the mark.
So a grand total for hitting nearly everything in game, save I believe two quests and a couple raids...1814 CoV.
Never trust a theory poster.
Last edited by Braegan; 12-04-2013 at 09:22 PM.
Git off mah lawn!
If, If's and But's was Candies and Nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.
"42" is the answer to "The ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything." (As explained in "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams) So, obviously the number has to be some multiple of 42.
I just capped my epic XP this morning with a character that hit 20 shortly after the update. I soloed a majority of my quests, most of them on epic normal, but I did keep my hard streak on all the FR quests. I ended up with 994 commendations at lvl 28. My character wasn't the ideal build for epic levels as I didn't plan on going to 28 when I started my heroic fighter life, and I am sure I could have done a little more along the lines of ingredients over XP, but if I am to do epic past lives with the system as it is now I will have to buy a heart at least every other life.
Look man, it's like this:
Option 1, The Bad: Your values are too high, and you leave them too high. Even if the math ties out for the way you imagined people would earn CoV's, that was a hypothetical situation. The fact is, people almost unanimously think it's out of reach for more than 1 or 2 ETR's for a character, if that. So, the end result of this option is that if you don't change it, very few people utilize your shiny new system because earning hearts is too hard. This is a problem that is also compounded for you because to buy an Epic Heart one would need to be incentivized by the ETR PL's. Unfortunately, these are WILDLY underwhelming until completely stacked multiple times. The investment just isn't worth payout. This is sadly, the world we live in today.
Option 2, The Good: You lower the total number of CoV's. Maybe you lower to something like 2500 or 3000 which you and your superiors are uncomfortable with. Why? I'm not really sure. I don't get why you have this weird arbitrary number of 4200 that you are so married to. It's too high. If you lower it, what do you think the repercussions will be? I don't know, but I suspect you'll just have a lot more people a lot more excited to participate. You could use that kind of goodwill right now in this game I think. Turbine will still sell hearts (probably not a lot though, but that's a different issue with the terribadness of the epic PL's). But most importantly, you will have LOTS of people doing LOTS of ETR's consuming LOTS of Turbine store items spending LOTS of money. That's a win for me, and that's a win for Turbine. I would like to point to the ENORMOUSLY successful and well-implemented HEROIC TR system as a case in point. It has been wildly popular since release, and the reason is because the work is put in earning XP, running 20-30 Epic quests to get the token to TR and get a good PL (and honestly every passive Heroic PL is at least decent, if not completely balanced) doesn't feel that punitive. Also with ED's it's a good way to get some more twists, or Epic items you don't have yet. Perhaps also most importantly, you didn't have to choose fragments for HTR'ing over other end rewards, they were just in the chests and dropped from mobs. That system was, and still is, awesome. This new system is it's red-headed step-little brother. Also, TRing allowed you to change you race and classes. ETR is just an annoyance as far as I am concerned forcing me to LR each time. It really needs improvement.
Option 3, The Ugly: You leave the values alone, but you buff the Epic PL's. People will not complain about grinding 4200 coms if the Epic PL's were say, 50-75% better than they are now. The only exception might be the Shiradi stance, which I really like. Maybe allow it to proc every 7 seconds for T3, but it's no big.
To sum it up:
Today, people really don't like ETR as implemented, and simply aren't utilizing it. You're insistent that you somehow picked a good number at 4200 given current drop rates. However, overwhelmingly feedback is not good. I know personally a number of people who have stopped playing over disappointment in this system. And they are long time stalwarts who have stuck around when many, many have left for other games. This is what keeps your old timers around, but not when you get it wrong. Especially since content releases have been underwhelming (loot has been totally messed up), this is the ONLY endgame most people interested in.
Lower the value or buff the PL's. Right now the carrot is too small, and the stick is too long. You want people to play and be excited about playing, right? That's what makes people open their wallets.
Last edited by jakeelala; 12-05-2013 at 02:09 AM.
Also, while some players managed to reconstruct your method to calculate covs, that doesn't mean it in any way resembles how most people play: assuming NO xp boosts, NO slayers, NO optionals... That's some pretty big and VERY flawed assumptions. I'm not even talking about the serious rip-off the epic tomes of greater learning turned out to be... At least pots can be saved for heroic content.
Oh for the record: I have not played for covs, running DQ1/2, and my daily double von3 to cap destinies and only once farming ID for covs (yes it works no there's no fun whatsoever in that for me), but nevertheless almost always taking covs when I could get them. Result: almost 3 EDs capped since the update, and just over 400 covs. Not exactly numbers that make me interested in ETRing.
* Optionals in quests (many are unavoidable, such as the waves in Devil Assault)
* Secret Door XP (well, you've already made it where that's harder to do now, so it does appear you don't want us to do these)
* Conquest XP (again, many times this is unavoidable)
* Ransack XP (fairly easy to avoid)
* Discreet XP (well, quest design lately makes this near impossible so it's easy to avoid)
* Flawless XP (dying can be done in quests, no problem)
* Persistance XP (easy to prevent, plus it can remove an additional amount of XP also)
* Voice of the Master/Master's Gift xp (easy to avoid)
* VIP XP bonus (are you guys really wanting to run players off of VIP again?)
* Monster Manual XP (well, at least the players that drop VIP won't be picking this XP up anymore, but others that bought it can't avoid it)
* Learning Tomes (everyone who bought the Shadowfail "expansion" probably have ate their free Lesser already so that's unavoidable since most of the CoV needed will be farmed there)
* Bravery Bonus Streak (fairly easy to break in early Epics but a bit unavoidable in the upper Epics)
* Daily Bonus (a bit hard to avoid)
* First time bonus (again, hard to avoid)
* XP from Wilderness (sometimes easy, sometimes hard to avoid)
* XP Shrine (easy to avoid)
* XP potions (easy to avoid)
* Otto Boxes (easy to avoid)
* Daily Dice XP stones (easy to avoid)
* Bonus Days XP (unavoidable)
Looks like most of the unavoidable XP are found with built into the quests, while most of the avoidable XP is found in the purchasable items via real money. Just to add some more absurdity to this, players can't play the quests overlevel to cut down on the amount of XP they earn because it also cuts down on the CoV that they earn.
Seems silly that you've actually constructed a new system that incentives players to not spend real money on alot of small (limited and permanent) things just to make a single DDOStore item more appealing).
We've been saying it since the numbers were released: the amount of CoV needed to ETR or ITR is too high, so cut the number of CoVs needed or increase the number of CoVs that drop.
Last edited by oradafu; 12-05-2013 at 03:02 AM.
Thanks for your research .
Well I guess it all comes down to balancing the books, any person who buys a heart.......is a win, players who get fed up with the system and just leave or do something else is a loss, all depends how it plays out. Some people like to pay a lot to bypass playing the game..........not to sure if they are taking it too far here.......so its a juggling act, comes down to the bottom line........even if overall sales do drop they will most likely attribute it to something else anyway.
If we would get enough COVs just leveling 20-28 noone would buy hearts of wood from ddo store. now you have 2 options when you rech lvl 28 and want to epic reincarnate - spend $ for heart and have more time for next live, or spend time farming and save money - perfectly normal in mmo
Turbine should adjust the amount in order to increase our experience, not find another for profit scheme to fleece us. Enough with the micro transaction hell. There's already 2 perfect valid choices - buy one or make one for free. The make one for free should be adjusted so we can at least get one for free in a reasonable time. Not create another micro transaction option. No seriously; make a more reasonable experience instead - not another hand in my pocket.
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