I must say I disagree. I have a 14 Wiz/4 Barb/2 Fighter that just wrecks things at the moment. I call him the Ravager Wraith and he uses PM, EK and the Ravager trees primarily. Just starting in on epics so I will go into more details as I get into the higher up ones but will use Cleaver and synergy with doublestrike enhancements, force from Estrike and Etempest amped up and that will synergy with Ruin which has no DC saves. Displace and Wraith from make you very hard to hit and you can pump out 6 cleave attacks (estrike, etempest, cleave, gr cleave, mom swing and lay waste). Runs in tensors obviously. Ravager started off as flavor but the line is really nice and has synergy - Hate and cruel strikes do ability dmg that works well with necro ray,enervation and CoD. Aura of fear with waves of exhaustion gives enemies -8 str, you are causing massive con dmg with cruel cut to red/orange names. Between spell sword and ravager you are getting 4d18 extra dmg per strike. So to summarize, good doublestrike, self healing, hard to hit, tons of cleaves, excellent buffs, solid utility spell ability and good synergy with force spells that require no DC checks.
EK has some nice abilities (if you're planning on a melee sorc/wizard anyway), some gimmicks and a lot of concepts that would be great... in another game.
It has potential with some tweaks. As it stands, my melee sorc just dips in for some low hanging fruit thae GTFO to other trees.
My pure WF Sorc is performing amazingly well in EE content. much better than I had hoped. It is a definite melee option in this game.
Yes, blitz makes it amazing. But that doesn't mean that it's not viable.
I stayed pure to try out the capstone, and I have absolutely no issue with it. As a matter of fact, I love it.
Im using sireth, so I am constantly having AOE procs going off. Whether they are from the weapon, or form the cleave attacks. Add energy burst + primal scream, you end up doing tons of damage across multiple possible damage areas. The elemental toggles are nice, because you just switch to suit the type of mob you are fighting.
Im still tweaking mine, and making changes as I go to improve upon it. It preforms damn well in fury of the wild, and for that matter, in the fatesinger destiny.
I keep seeing tons of posters stating that "the tree LOOKS like ****" I don't think it's nearly as bad as some are trying to make it out to be.
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DISCLAIMER - My max char. ATM is lv18 so I have no exp. in the end-game. Purely a suggestion.
Shouldn't the EK get a nice synergy with the Sacred Defender tree and the Dwarf tree, with all of them HP/CON/Shield goodies ?
Heck if you go with Stalwart instead of Sacred you can throw in some Barbarian in the mix for some extra dps.
I took the mage armour and shield SLAs, scroll and wand buffs plus the weapon thing just for +10 force spell power and -5% failure on my bladeforged sorc. Turns out that the shield SLA isn't that great, and I was hoping to use mage armour on allies but its self cast only.
Since the shield reduces all damage and healing to you and only under 50% health, it looks to be effectively a maximum of +12.5% max hp for your character, which is.. alright? Since it doesn't let you heal for normal amounts, it doesn't confer any advantage to survival other than possibly saving you from a single spike of damage. Except when you take into account that you can have a maximum of 20/90=22% up time of the shield, which requires that you deliberately go and take massive damage every time the shield comes off cooldown, you end up with an average of 12.5% * 22% = 2.7% max hp.
The enhancement nets you a measly +2.7% maximum hp on average. Wow.
1+1=3 is synergy. You put two things together, and they interact to do something at least slightly more than just the two things alone together.
EK does have some double strike. But if you take 2 rogue levels instead of 2 fighter levels, you can get 3x as much doublestrike. It just doesn't compare.
Self healing has absolutely nothing to do with EK specifically.
Hard to hit has nothing to do with EK. This is palemaster stuff.
Excellent buffs and solid utility spells has nothing to do with EK. This is because you are wizard (You get the same benefit from an EK-less wizard).
Force spells aren't the only thing that requires no DC checks, but EK offers a marginal benefit for force spells over Archmage at best, due to 0.5sp/ap 1sp/ap ratio. Assuming you invest 42 points in EK to get most of the T5 goodies, that is a 21 spellpower loss over 40 points in AM, to gain a bonus of +30 force spellpower. So you net +9 force spellpower.
So you get an extremely inefficient cleave with a really long cooldown, one very inefficient cleave with with a longish cooldown, +9 force spellpower, -21 universal spellpower, a few percent doublestrike, 10 prr, and 2.7% hitpoints, and ability to wear armor (your scrolls will still fail btw), all for a 42 AP investment. Honestly, I think the -21 universal spellpower will lose you more dps than you gain from +9 force spellpower in your eldritch strikes. Same with polar ray, ice storm, black dragon bolt, etc.
Synergy - doublestrike from EK with Cleaver
Synergy - force based non DC casting with twin EK cleave attacks and ruin
Synergy - Ravager stat dmg with PM. This isn't just PM because a casting PM can't take advantage of wading into battle and using them, same goes for displace and wraith form. Almost all casting PMs are in lich form anyway.
The solution is to that is play a wis fvs.
Here, the solution is a PM with melee investments, not a pure caster pm trying to wade into melee, because that would be moronic. And really a melee pm is almost the same as what you are describing. You haven't tried a geared melee 18PM/x in LD destiny have you?
I'm not missing that a solid investment in EK turns him into a melee beast, because he would already have to be a melee beast before you invested those points into EK, because EK just does not make that much of a difference to any decent epic character, and epic is where the game is now.
And saying that EK rocks on a naked level 28, against level 15 elite, or mows through level 20 epic casual like winning the special olympics.
Last edited by Twinkly; 12-07-2013 at 11:25 AM.
TBH the SLA's feel kind of counter-intuitive.
+4 armor bonus and +10% AC, but the +4 armor bonus is pretty much useless because you'd want to get as much AC as possible (so you can capitalize on the 10%) which means you'll get a medium/heavy armor. Same thing for the shield. With the Shield Striking and whatnot you'd like to equip a shield so that +4 shield bonus is useless as well. They could've at least make them a stackable (untyped ?) bonus. We have 4 abilities + 2 cores that reduce the AF so you'd think you are actually supposed to use Heavy armor and a shield. So what purpose do those 2 +4s serve ? A Henshin/EK hybrid ?
And all that Force SP yet only 2 abilities that use it*. Are we supposed to make an Eldritch Archmage Knight using the force SLA's from there ? Add BB as a Tier5 SLA (with all that AC and whatnot you might as well start kiting xD) or at least add it to the spellbook and it will make more of a sense. Or at least add a Force equivalent of the Spellsword cores as a T5 or something.
*And let's face it ... no one sane is going to use Eldritch Tempest - 6 AP for a 30 cooldown ability ... REALLY ?!
I was thinking of trying a Rog 2 (Th/Ac) Wiz 18 (Archmage-Evocation) build, and thought that EK tied the two together nicely. EK pumps the damage of the staff damage when I want to polish something off in melee, and the Force damage pumps the SLAs of the Archmage line. I don't think we're talking about an EE build, but sounds like it could be fun.
There is no chance I'm reading that grammatical disaster.
1) Sacred Defender is pretty bad in general. Shields are a gimmick. Health is so easy to get as is. I have 500 by level 16, 400 by 11 and 1k by 28 on my wizards.
2) Barbs just aren't worth it currently. Hardly gives more dps when your hjealz are dead.
3) You really need more dps than sacred defender - or EK - can get on their own. Destinies are the greatest source of dps on DDO, sacrificing masters blitz for a tiny amount of survivability seems pointless.
To be honest, I do see your point, and I'd try it if DDO was a different game.. but it's not, sadly enough.
I had a 12 wiz/6 barb laying around already. Wraith form (for self heal and well fighting on melee range, it boosts the damage as well) + Frenzy and the STR boost from the Rage, some decent AC and PRR ... I don't have to worry about the "no casting" part of Rage as well - just buff myself, cast a Death aura and rageeeeeeee xD.
I have no idea what is to have a good char. TBH but comparing to the people I find in the PUGs I have to say it's pretty good.
The problem with the people playing DDO is that they don't realize - not every item, class and etc. has to be end game viable. A lot of people don't reach the end-game. Someone might want to just play mid-level with a spell casting slashbuckler and cleric might not be up to their taste. Some stuff is just there to add variety to the game.
I just LRs my pure fighter S&B to a kensai EK (12 wiz 8 fighter).
Now, I didn't expect amazing DPS to result by diluting a L20 fighter with 12 levels of wizard! But I do find it is only marginally better than the S&B wielder, and it's not for lack of attack bonus, y'know?I've gained a few ranks in LD since then, which has helped hugely - but its the ED, not the EK making the difference. The crits are of course way bigger on a GA than a BS and this is where the DPS increase is coming from, but the average damage per swing is about the same with similar special effects on the weapon, and I was able to put a lot more into str on the LR.
Now there's not nearly enough information in the above claim to know whether i'm making a fair comparison - but I still hit what feels like the same amount. That speaks volumes for how much better they've made S&B of course, which I'm actually very pleased about and would not want to see reversed again, but note this: my AC has not changed very much since swapping from stalwart, and I no longer carry a tower shield. It's made a 5% difference maybe to how much avoidance the tooltip says I have, except now I have some self healing and higher DPS.
So no, I do not think EK needs massive amounts of tweaking. I think I'm getting pretty good mileage out of it. However, it would have been a nightmare to level that build I think, it's only really worked because I came straight in at L20.
I feel like the tree needs a lot more front loading. The standard T1 magic cleave needs to have either it's damage raised or it's SP cost lowered massively - 3SP is just about worth it's current damage output. Even on a L20 wizard with so many more SP, the current cost would be way. Too. Expensive, it should be on a par with an SLA in terms of cost at this damage level. Double it, at least. Triple it, if possible. Honestly, 30 elemental damage in a small burst and less than that in force at L20 is nothing. It could also probably benefit more from universal spell power rather than forcing you to have the different elemental spellpower types all available to swap in depending on which spellsword you are using.
The T5 force AOE is also too expensive on the SP. It has a long cooldown and you can't put metas on it but like the Eldritch Strike it *feels* like a SLA in terms of it's effect. Its' also based on character, not wizard level, so I can only assume the 100 or so force damage it does is pretty standard unless you've got great +impact gear (which I'm working on) and frankly that's more in line with what I'm expecting from that Tier 1 ability. It certainly shouldn't cost 30SP with a 30 sec cooldown after 3 points of investment, that's where it should be starting. Or keep the long cooldown but boost the damage output. Either way, drop the SP hugely. That sort of SP investment is maximised fireball territory and the damage output there is way higher, even accounting for the damage from the weapon swing itself.
I also don't understand why the actual EK SLAs (mage armour, shield) can be metad (extend quicken for giggles) and the T1 core and T5 EK melee strikes can't. At the current SP price of the EK T1 & T5 Eldritch Strike, not being able to have a free maximise just feels like I'm being ripped off. Incidentally, the PM necrotic SLAs - no metas is weaksauce there too especially since they can't self target for heals.
Additionally, FAR too many AP are consumed for my liking in EK reducing modifiers for being what this tree is supposed to be - a melee wizard. I shouldn't need to actively invest so much directly in ASF except for the extreme ends of things (e.g. heavy armour and shields). Those 4-6 extra APs that are required make a big difference. The enhancements themselves should certainly be included - they'd be ones that a pure wiz would invest in to get the armour/shield proficiencies themselves. But ASF should come with the tier core abilities, at each level of spellsword so that multiclassers aren't quite so penalised. Shallow multiclassers would still be limited by the number of core abilities they could reach based on wiz level, but could still invest in those proficiency+ASF AP if armour was particularly important to them.
Just my thoughts from a mere few days playing an EK. That's from the point of view of a wiz-heavy build anyway.
Is it me or they forgot Heavy Armor Proficiency on the 3rd rank of Still Spell ... It makes no sense to be able to cast spells with 0% AF with Heavy Armor while NOT having the proficiency for it ... or they expect us to multiclass (or waste 3 feats) to get it ?
Do I think I can solo some of those insane prison quests on elite? Uh, no. But then, even on a really well built char, some of those can be hard on an equally well prepared _team_. For instance, the second to final quest where mobs spawn endlessly in the sewer. -_-
You can definitely find synergy.
You'll probably do very marginally less melee dps in lich form, and extremely marginally less dps with maxed LD, self heal better, and cast better.
Far superior? Hah....
Yeah. I agree these are exactly some of the major problems with EK. But I don't think EK needs even more front loading, as it is already pretty darn front loaded, sort of. Let's say you start with 18 wiz levels, unspecced. For just 6 points into EK, you have a the signature EK cleave (that still needs tweaking), AND you also have full 4-16 on hit elemental! In other words most of the offensive contribution of the entire EK. If that's not extremely front loaded already, I don't know what is. The real problem is that EK doesn't scale past the front loadedness very well at all. Even pally might do better at this here. Patheticness
As far as AC goes, an extra 10% of useless is still pretty darn useless. Perhaps it was intended to adjust the current metagame? Trying harder would be needed...
That's not to say that I think EK should be merely redistributed, as that would make a 'meh' class just plain suck, but rather the investment/effectiveness curve should be reconsidered, taking into account both low geared characters and well geared characters as well as characters with EDs, using a minimal investment in EK as a baseline. Also, upper tiers desperately needs some non-fluff cool factor!
Last edited by Twinkly; 12-09-2013 at 02:29 PM.
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