Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22
  1. #1
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,817

    Default Scaling and PUGs

    While I am not going to argue the point about scaling killing the PUG scene, the question I really have: is scaling that detrimental to PUGs?

    I’ll provide a good example: Ritual Sacrifice. I did it with my pally, on hard, pure solo. It was a very long, long quest straight-up solo (failed because I couldn’t keep the end-fight NPC healed as fast as was needed, but that is neither here nor there). So I re-ran it with three hirelings, and it was basically a cake-walk to the end fight.

    After that I ran it with a PUG of 5 players and a hireling. Again, it was nowhere near the slog it was doing it solo.

    Now, I realize that there are basically two types of PUGs, and one of those has one or more outstanding players in them. Those people make getting from point A to point B relatively easy. But this specific PUG was just a bunch of average players, and STILL it went much quicker than just going solo.

    So, is scaling as big a detriment to PUGs as everyone assumes it is, or do you think that this is a false assumption?

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    2,330

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    While I am not going to argue the point about scaling killing the PUG scene, the question I really have: is scaling that detrimental to PUGs?

    I’ll provide a good example: Ritual Sacrifice. I did it with my pally, on hard, pure solo. It was a very long, long quest straight-up solo (failed because I couldn’t keep the end-fight NPC healed as fast as was needed, but that is neither here nor there). So I re-ran it with three hirelings, and it was basically a cake-walk to the end fight.

    After that I ran it with a PUG of 5 players and a hireling. Again, it was nowhere near the slog it was doing it solo.

    Now, I realize that there are basically two types of PUGs, and one of those has one or more outstanding players in them. Those people make getting from point A to point B relatively easy. But this specific PUG was just a bunch of average players, and STILL it went much quicker than just going solo.

    So, is scaling as big a detriment to PUGs as everyone assumes it is, or do you think that this is a false assumption?
    Scaling has nothing at all to do if I pug or not. Who knows about other people. I pug sometimes. But it goes like this guildies friends > solo > pug. Obviously we know why it's more fun to run with guildies and friends. The reason I sometimes like to solo over pug isn't because of scaling. It's because I like the freedom to do what I want. If I have to stop in the middle of a quest and give some advice to a guildie, I like being able to do that. If I want to pause and make a sandwich I like having that power. If I want to quickly zerg, I like being able to do that. Running in a pug doesn't allow for any of that, but it isn't because of scaling.

  3. #3
    2015 DDO Players Council
    Axel's DDO Channel
    axel15810's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    East Coast, USA
    Posts
    2,910

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    While I am not going to argue the point about scaling killing the PUG scene, the question I really have: is scaling that detrimental to PUGs?

    I’ll provide a good example: Ritual Sacrifice. I did it with my pally, on hard, pure solo. It was a very long, long quest straight-up solo (failed because I couldn’t keep the end-fight NPC healed as fast as was needed, but that is neither here nor there). So I re-ran it with three hirelings, and it was basically a cake-walk to the end fight.

    After that I ran it with a PUG of 5 players and a hireling. Again, it was nowhere near the slog it was doing it solo.

    Now, I realize that there are basically two types of PUGs, and one of those has one or more outstanding players in them. Those people make getting from point A to point B relatively easy. But this specific PUG was just a bunch of average players, and STILL it went much quicker than just going solo.

    So, is scaling as big a detriment to PUGs as everyone assumes it is, or do you think that this is a false assumption?
    Scaling is only a pain if you are in a weak group.

    Last night I ran Epic Hard Cabal for One on my Battle Cleric in a PUG, running in an off destiny (Draconic). I can solo that quest on Epic Hard without much of a problem. However, in this group the other 5 players all weak DPS. I was struggling to keep everyone alive and I was leading the kill count at the same time. The scaling made the run take longer and much tougher than had I just soloed it.

    But that's a rarity. Usually with 5 average players it's no big deal and if you have 5 good players the run is always much faster than soloing it.

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,080

    Default

    i think the main problem with scaling is when spawns throw the party into instant red DA. then it can be easier to just solo or duo the quest. outside of such bugged quests scaling doesn't bother me
    www.legendsguild.eu A light RP guild that's moved from Keeper in Europe to Thelanis
    Play DDO in 3D, for fweeeee! how to use coloured 3D glasses with DDO.
    East? West? Which way's that? Putting East and West back on the (mini)map
    Tired of chasing blue dots? Find a speed or striding item, vets are hooked on them and you will be too!

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    669

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So, is scaling as big a detriment to PUGs as everyone assumes it is, or do you think that this is a false assumption?
    No. Completely blown out of proportion.

    Wiping in 1 of maybe 250 quests is not a reason. If people can't handle the rare loss at those odds, they should avoid real life, or stick to bumper bowling. The more you pug, the less you worry about any scaling, since you're playing everything at full scale anyhow most times. Conversely, the more you solo, the more likely you're not up the task of handling full scaling because you see it so rarely.

    Real heroes pug and carry 5 pikers through EE.

  6. #6
    Intergalactic Space Crusader Livmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarlona
    Posts
    2,614

    Default Lots of good points

    There are lots of good points already. It all depends of course. I like to PUG, because I have no expectations. I do notice scaling sometimes can beat down a party. Sometimes just changing one or 2 players makes a big difference. Thank to all the peeps in PUGs that will drop party and grab another toon more suited for the quest!

  7. #7
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    669

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    i think the main problem with scaling is when spawns throw the party into instant red DA. then it can be easier to just solo or duo the quest. outside of such bugged quests scaling doesn't bother me
    I can only think of one quest where that's an issue, ever.

    Wheloon and Stormhorns wilderness red DA, far easier.

  8. #8
    2015 DDO Players Council
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Ebberon
    Posts
    174

    Default

    From my experience scaling is usually a problem when running high difficulty content. many times i find it easier to solo an ee quest then to 6 man it. I have also seen this applicable to heroic levels. i.e. Elite Running with the devils has a massive increase in damage output by trash. In Elite kobold assault when soloing, the lightning bolts from the shaman are not much of a problem. when attempting in a 6 man group they can be deadly to the squishier folk.
    Last edited by Forul; 11-26-2013 at 01:33 PM.
    - Sorul - Sakami - Adenai - Witmix - Oyashi - Lefie/Refie

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3,080

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    I can only think of one quest where that's an issue, ever.

    Wheloon and Stormhorns wilderness red DA, far easier.
    yup, i read how one of the later wheloon quests was quite crazy on the scaling so i stuck an LFM up for a partner to duo. a barbarian responded and my rogue and him completed the quest just fine on a heroic BB streak (hireling and hjeel scrolls got us through). that is the only time i've not thrown the doors wide open to a full party due to scaling. i was also gunning for those +8 DEX braciers so i could LR and go INT based. really just wanted to knock that quest on the head

    so yeah, that is a tiny portion of the game for me affected by scaling. so far it has only made me limit the party for 1 quest between all of my characters and i've been playing for far longer than we've had scaling.
    www.legendsguild.eu A light RP guild that's moved from Keeper in Europe to Thelanis
    Play DDO in 3D, for fweeeee! how to use coloured 3D glasses with DDO.
    East? West? Which way's that? Putting East and West back on the (mini)map
    Tired of chasing blue dots? Find a speed or striding item, vets are hooked on them and you will be too!

  10. #10
    2014 DDO Players Council
    SirValentine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Korea (temporarily)
    Posts
    5,416

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    So, is scaling as big a detriment to PUGs as everyone assumes it is, or do you think that this is a false assumption?
    Generally, the increased damage output of more players more than offsets the increase in mob hit points, so you would kill stuff faster.

    The downside is the increase damage from mobs, and especially from traps.

    Solo, you can just run through traps, without even bothering to time them, and live. With a full party, that's much more likely to kill you.

    Solo, you can aggro lots of mobs and live through it as you kill them. With a full party, that's much more likely to kill you.

    The other downside is just time: I'm ready to quest, so I want to start questing RIGHT NOW, not wait 20 minutes for 5 others to join, get buffs, ask for shares, explain where the quest is, blah, blah, blah. Even if we do the quest itself twice as fast, it still might take longer total time.

  11. #11
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,913

    Default

    You didnt fail Ritual Sacrifice because of being solo or being in a group. You failed it because the end objective is to babysit a computer controlled mob with an AI that is just barely smart enough to charge into the middle of the room screaming LEEEERROOOOYYYYY!!! while attracting as much attention as possible. The advantage of having more players there is the group can be in 6 places at once saving leroy from his own computer AI driven stupidity, while you as a solo player can only be in one place at a time.

    I think the scaling being detrimental to PUGs is a two way street, and overblown because some folks have low opinions of the PUG scene. The quests scale up to 4 players, but you can have 6 in a group. Even if 2 players are complete deadbeats, it should be a wash with a full party.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #12
    Community Member darkly_dreaming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    211

    Default

    Scaling plays no part at all in my decision to PUG or not, and it really only makes a difference in a very few quests. Running with the Devils is one that comes to mind, where the scaling on the searing lights is substantial.

    Personally I think scaling is just another red herring for 'no PUG scene' that people who don't want to group or don't want to put up their own LFM use.
    Goddess, you know it baybee!
    Zealotry ~ Zealot ~ Zeal ~ Chanteuse ~ Conceit : +5 to Sexterity, Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by Bromuro View Post
    P.S: Besides Zealotry's voice is charming/mesmerizing and i bet she is a witch or a succubus disguised.

  13. #13
    Community Member darkly_dreaming's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    211

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I’ll provide a good example: Ritual Sacrifice. I did it with my pally, on hard, pure solo. It was a very long, long quest straight-up solo (failed because I couldn’t keep the end-fight NPC healed as fast as was needed, but that is neither here nor there).
    Double post! But different point. I learned a cute trick for the end of Ritual. When one of the doors opens there are 3 gnoll archers. Kill all but 1 archer, the NPC will keep attacking it and you can run to the end and (hopefully!) finish before he and the Gnoll kill each other.
    Goddess, you know it baybee!
    Zealotry ~ Zealot ~ Zeal ~ Chanteuse ~ Conceit : +5 to Sexterity, Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by Bromuro View Post
    P.S: Besides Zealotry's voice is charming/mesmerizing and i bet she is a witch or a succubus disguised.

  14. #14
    Community Member Draxis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    291

    Default

    I'm probably just reiterating what others have said, but most people don't not PUG because of the scaling - It's because of their irrational fear that the majority of players out there with whom they are not familiar will force them to waste time (With deaths, finding quest entrances, stupid questions, etc.) and thus, infuriate them beyond belief. Simple as that.

    You waste my time, I waste yooooou!
    Last edited by Draxis; 11-26-2013 at 02:53 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Down Under
    Posts
    674

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I’ll provide a good example: Ritual Sacrifice. I did it with my pally
    I find on a sorceror this quest goes much faster solo than with a group. If you can haste, stoneskin, displace, blur, invis, etc. plus read a heal scroll you fly through the content.

    I find your experience predictable, where those classes or builds that are either strong in defense or group support flourish when playing with others. It's not a criticism of the pally, just a reflection that a more traditional pen and paper D&D build leads to a more traditional D&D play experience.

  16. #16
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,419

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Scaling is only a pain if you are in a weak group.

    Last night I ran Epic Hard Cabal for One on my Battle Cleric in a PUG, running in an off destiny (Draconic). I can solo that quest on Epic Hard without much of a problem. However, in this group the other 5 players all weak DPS. I was struggling to keep everyone alive and I was leading the kill count at the same time. The scaling made the run take longer and much tougher than had I just soloed it.

    But that's a rarity. Usually with 5 average players it's no big deal and if you have 5 good players the run is always much faster than soloing it.
    Ok, reading DDO Wiki which states "Epic quests, quests with Solo-Only difficulty, raid-zone adventure areas and Raids at any difficulty do not scale at all." Does this information need to be updated? Or is the OP correct and people are perceiving there is a difficulty that doesn't exist?

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    598

    Default

    The best example I can give of scaling is the Extraplanar Palace challenges. If I set the difficulty to level 25, I can tank the hits of the 6-armed boss on almost any character. If I invite even one other person, the damage from each of those hits goes up enough that I can no longer tank (and thus have to kite her instead). The increase in damage dealt by opponents from having even one other person is very large. This does not mean that grouping is not better, but it does mean that the group members need to do something significant in order to have them be better than nothing.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  18. #18
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,419

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    The best example I can give of scaling is the Extraplanar Palace challenges. If I set the difficulty to level 25, I can tank the hits of the 6-armed boss on almost any character. If I invite even one other person, the damage from each of those hits goes up enough that I can no longer tank (and thus have to kite her instead). The increase in damage dealt by opponents from having even one other person is very large. This does not mean that grouping is not better, but it does mean that the group members need to do something significant in order to have them be better than nothing.
    Yeah, challenges are their own beast which was poor programming design that they never fixed. Not even sure they plan on fixing it which is a shame. Plenty of threads on it. Artificer was U12 or something so there is little chance with all of the other "fires" they need to put out.

  19. #19
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    598

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Ok, reading DDO Wiki which states "Epic quests, quests with Solo-Only difficulty, raid-zone adventure areas and Raids at any difficulty do not scale at all." Does this information need to be updated? Or is the OP correct and people are perceiving there is a difficulty that doesn't exist?
    It probably needs to be updated. I am pretty sure that when the wiki says, "Epic quests" it means level 20 epics back when those were the hardest content in the game and epic levels did not exist.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by darkly_dreaming View Post
    Double post! But different point. I learned a cute trick for the end of Ritual. When one of the doors opens there are 3 gnoll archers. Kill all but 1 archer, the NPC will keep attacking it and you can run to the end and (hopefully!) finish before he and the Gnoll kill each other.
    Nice trick, thank you.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload