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  1. #201
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Anywhoo . . . not sure how to fix this mess either, but you need to acknowledge a mess exists.
    Close fleshy opening spewing vocalizations and RJECON MEH!
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  2. #202
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Probably not especially since most good players have abandoned their barbarians.



    I don't care about "most players" regarding this. All who run EEs on a regular basis don't need a dedicated healer. With this being the situation what value does a divine add to an end-game group?

    Look . . . I think the current situation in high-level play regarding what works best and what doesn't is absolutely retarded. The FoTM builds are just dumb and screaming for a nerf and stuff that should be stronger just isn't. The game was better when divines could insta-kill as well as necro-wizards. But people need to get their heads out of the sand reagarding how things work now.

    I slag on paladins all the time. not because I hate paladins (well . . . um . . .) but because I want the class to be made better. it's the same thing with divines, in the modern high-end EE game they really aren't needed. They've lost that role. There needs to be something else for them to be great at doing.

    And I don't fault Turbine for this 100%, it's hard to balance this stuff. The U10 FvS was god-mode. Now it's a bucket of meh. No class should be a bucket of meh, and no FoTM builds should be able to obtain the god-mode that they currently have.

    Point blank it is TOO EASY for melees to heal themselves at this time. Turbine's solution to this . . . Bladeforged! Let's give all FoTM builds reconstruct!


    Um . . .

    Anywhoo . . . not sure how to fix this mess either, but you need to acknowledge a mess exists.
    Its not the classes that are the issue, its specific epic destiny abilities. This is the real elephant in the middle of the room. 6 levels of monk isnt OP. Coupling it with Masters Blitz makes it OP. 6 levels of ranger isnt OP. Coupling manyshot with fury makes it OP. The reason FvS is no longer the FOTM is because the regular destiny intended for divines doesnt kill mobs like fury or LD. So what do they do? They become battle clerics, and even though their melee prestige sucks, LD/Fury saves the day with its OP-ness. Any class can build manyshot in, and any class can be in fury.

    I like the game more now than back when FvS and DC casters were FOTM. No more of this "you need my healing but I dont need your DPS" stuff. Its just as easy for them to build for the same FOTM DPS as it is for anyone else to build for healing in epic levels. The high end accomplishments are no longer exclusive to those who can hit the DOT button and run in circles.

    Yes its a mess, but its not a class balance mess, its an epic destiny mess. The minute they gave us multiplicitive melee abilities, stuff got out of control. Anyone can melee or ranged now.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #203
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post

    And who teh hell are u anyway
    Isn't it obvious, I'm Teh_Troll.

  4. #204
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I like the game more now than back when FvS and DC casters were FOTM. No more of this "you need my healing but I dont need your DPS" stuff. Its just as easy for them to build for the same FOTM DPS as it is for anyone else to build for healing in epic levels. The high end accomplishments are no longer exclusive to those who can hit the DOT button and run in circles.

    Yes its a mess, but its not a class balance mess, its an epic destiny mess. The minute they gave us multiplicitive melee abilities, stuff got out of control. Anyone can melee or ranged now.
    You need to go back further to the root of all this mess. The root of all evil in DDO is the DOTs, I can pontificate on that if needed but I think you know the game well enough to figure it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The high end accomplishments are no longer exclusive to those who can hit the DOT button and run in circles.
    But is what works best now any less cheesy?

  5. #205
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Close fleshy opening spewing vocalizations and RJECON MEH!
    Dude . . . I've never played a WF other than a level 7 sorc who never made it out of the harbor. Looking at Bladeforded . . . I can't think of any reason to play a melee that isn't one. Once you get over the whole pay 2 win ting of course.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You need to go back further to the root of all this mess. The root of all evil in DDO is the DOTs, I can pontificate on that if needed but I think you know the game well enough to figure it out.
    i prefer to use their technical name, pixels. but yes, pixels are the root of all evil in internet games, if it weren't for these accursed pixels we'd all be outside getting a healthy dose of sunlight and living out the lynx/axe commercials.

    curse your bright flickering lights!
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  7. #207
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Dude . . . I've never played a WF other than a level 7 sorc who never made it out of the harbor. Looking at Bladeforded . . . I can't think of any reason to play a melee that isn't one. Once you get over the whole pay 2 win ting of course.
    I play a ton of WF. One of them is a Monk 6 / Fighter 12 split (been that way for a while) multi-stunner. He's 2nd string, but one day I'll TR him.

    I made him a while back because I essentially had collected a **** tone of epic gear (preMOTU). Jidz. Claw. Blademark's Docent. Figured I'd make a tactics-monk and have solid amp for a WF. He's got crazy good amp for a WF, with gear to support it.

    When I looked at TRing him a while back, I can't justify going WF again and pushing heal amp unless for some stupid reason I built him as a tank. As DPS/tactics, I shelved him until he can TR into the *actual* master race. Bladeforged.

    I totally get how you feel, and as a WF player can tell you I view the Bladeforged as a kick in the nuts to WF.

    My pseudo main is on a cleric life. For a variety of "I'm stupid" reasons, he's always been a WF. It's amusing when I try to heal myself, but sad when I think "A Bladeforged would have recon". Thankfully, heroic lives don't last forever.
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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Dude . . . I've never played a WF other than a level 7 sorc who never made it out of the harbor. Looking at Bladeforded . . . I can't think of any reason to play a melee that isn't one. Once you get over the whole pay 2 win ting of course.
    you mean the pay several times to win, right? pay to get bladeforged, then pay to LR the paly out, and maybe even pay again to get shot of the alignment. with that much paying i'll bet they will make killer monks!

    just imagine a monks attack speed combined with those new temp SP items and yea olde SP regen items. they would be true duracell bunnies!
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  9. #209
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yes its a mess, but its not a class balance mess, its an epic destiny mess.
    There are almost no differences between classes or their abilities or something that makes them special or something they bring to the group if needed.
    Bard ? Thf in dread with more convenient displace and haste.
    Fury with bow.
    Fascinate, buffs ? Almost pointless.
    Clerics, fvs are basically the same. Few people are clinging on DC casting.
    Healing ? Yeah some in raids, almost not needed anywhere else.
    Fighter, pallies, rangers, monk splashes, it's all the same. You only choose style and self healing method.
    Sorc, wizzy, go Shiradi or go home, hooray for pointless spellbooks.

    Only monks, arties, and druids are kinda different experience ( paid classes, maybe not a coincidence ).

  10. #210
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Definitely not a coincidence. Turbine has a strong history of introducing a class/weapon/ability as an overpowering entity, then nerfing it into uselessness 2-3 updates later.
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  11. #211
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You need to go back further to the root of all this mess. The root of all evil in DDO is the DOTs, I can pontificate on that if needed but I think you know the game well enough to figure it out.
    Yes, that caused one of the biggest stat inflations in quite some time. In order to brind DOTs "into line" they had to throw game balance concerning everything else out the window. The one thing they got right is not tethering the OP abilities to specific classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    But is what works best now any less cheesy?
    That FOTM cheeze has been in DDO since we could buy this game in a box. It comes and goes in different flavors but its still cheeze.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #212
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    ...
    Fascinate, buffs ? Almost pointless.
    Clerics, fvs are basically the same. Few people are clinging on DC casting.
    Healing ? Yeah some in raids, almost not needed anywhere else...
    In PUGs that's probably often the case. I like the old variation of roles and am not a huge fan of some of the sameness that occurs as a result of people feeling to the need to be independent entities in EE's, so I bring my healing/cc bard and encourage my guildies to bring whatever they want. Team play and more well defined group roles come as a result. I am not going to knock furyshot archers, deathpunch monks, and shiradi casters - I have 2/3 of them anyway - but I don't really want to run in a group full of them. There are ways to avoid it.

    When I'm on my bard, I actually get a bit annoyed when people feel the need to self heal (unless I've dropped the ball or things are a bit dire or hectic). So yes, I would need the opposite acronym of BYOH in those situations. I guess don't BYOH? "DBYOH?"

  13. #213
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    you mean the pay several times to win, right? pay to get bladeforged, then pay to LR the paly out, and maybe even pay again to get shot of the alignment. with that much paying i'll bet they will make killer monks!
    But if you're done with your heroic lives - and let's face it how many do you really need on a melee - it's perfect. At most you only need to remove the pally level once since the best FoTM DPS builds have two pally levels anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    just imagine a monks attack speed combined with those new temp SP items and yea olde SP regen items. they would be true duracell bunnies!
    Yeah, we examined monk in guild and it's a no-brainer. anything that doesn't already have at least CSW on a blue-bar is sub-optimal if it's not Bladeforged.

    Also think rogue. Screw assassinate.

  14. #214
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    But if you're done with your heroic lives - and let's face it how many do you really need on a melee - it's perfect. At most you only need to remove the pally level once since the best FoTM DPS builds have two pally levels anyway.
    I have to ask about that - what's up with 2 pally levels on popular builds now? Is there something sexy in the enhancements or is it just for the bonus to saves?

    The idea of putting "Paladin" and "DPS" in the same sentence just makes my brain confused, so I'm trying to figure that part out.
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  15. #215
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I have to ask about that - what's up with 2 pally levels on popular builds now? Is there something sexy in the enhancements or is it just for the bonus to saves?

    The idea of putting "Paladin" and "DPS" in the same sentence just makes my brain confused, so I'm trying to figure that part out.
    (1) Saves
    (2) Twist in Bane of Undeath (to grant Turn Undead) and then power Divine Might (CHA to STR, uses a turn)
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  16. #216
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I have to ask about that - what's up with 2 pally levels on popular builds now? Is there something sexy in the enhancements or is it just for the bonus to saves?

    The idea of putting "Paladin" and "DPS" in the same sentence just makes my brain confused, so I'm trying to figure that part out.
    Saves and divine might. The saves requirements in EE content are insane and it's pretty much the only way to get there unless you devote multiple twists, and that'll only help reflex.

    Equally retarded . . . divine might is the only way to get STR high enough to get STR-based tactics that matter.

    Personally I can't stand having the stench of paladin on me for too long. After a TR I need a long bath in lava.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Honest question . . . are there more than 5 Divines on our server who can add to a group in difficult content in a non-healing role?
    "add to a group"? Heck yeah. Dominate, though? No.

    Maybe my bar is lower than yours, though. "Easier with them along than just going with one fewer" counts as "add to a group" for me. "Definitely better than that other guy I might have taken instead" is a different (and, depending on that other guy, possibly quite a good bit higher) bar.

    Now, I'm also not saying the number is hundreds, but "more than 5" is not a high bar, either.

  18. #218
    Community Member deahamlet's Avatar
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    Honest question...

    How many divines do you know (that STILL play) that run EE and NEVER heal?

    Cause I've never met a divine that never healed. I joined a BYOH on my sorcerer with my little pots and that damn cleric still rez-ed me and healed me when I went brain-dead at two traps or we got surrounded (was my first time running Necro 4 content). And that cleric even said "I don't heal" and the bastige healed me, the sneaky bugger. He didn't even lecture me that I was at that level and not yet using heal scrolls (I was such a noob). They didn't even whine that I cost them 10% despite the run being BYOH and such. Of course, this was heroic elite.

    I used to run old epics, I've run EE, I have never said I don't heal, and I've had to tell divines to stop healing my negative heal-amp WF arse or else... Please tell me that you have met more than one divine that said he/she does not heal in EE. I'd be shocked.

    I hate babysitting but I always assumed that if the content is "difficult" and not just "I can do this blind with hands tied behind me farm-fest" I have several jobs... and all of them to the best of what my build can do. Buff, heal, DPS, CC, whatever gets it done.

    To complain people don't want to heal in easy content is ridiculous. To state people don't heal in EE sounds equally ridiculous.
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  19. #219
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deahamlet View Post
    Honest question...

    How many divines do you know (that STILL play) that run EE and NEVER heal?
    In the game, rarely. On the forums, all over the place.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by deahamlet View Post
    How many divines do you know (that STILL play) that run EE and NEVER heal?
    The whole "never heal" thing is a straw-man propped up by the class bigots who want divines to be their little heal-slaves.

    Good players help out their teammates, including with heals on occasion, on ANY CLASS.

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