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  1. #61
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddragon87 View Post
    I know this is a tired discussion that some of you audibly moaned when you read the title. But the subject has come up a few times for a reason. The PUG scene in DDO for lack of a better word is horrible. It does vary based on which server you are on and at what time and what level range plus a slew of other factors. I am not fond of the idea of a merge as I am sure many of you are not. Server pride is a very real thing and do not get me started on what would happen with all the duplicate names.

    The fact remains that if you open the LFM panel and see less then 3 PUG's then there is an issue. Often times in the times I play I am lucky if I see one for my level 19 character. Frankly there are better solo games out there and I for one play DDO for the social experience. I cannot speak for everyone there but that is just me. So what inspired this thread is I (May or may not be) a beta tester for Elder Scrolls Online and they are doing something interesting with their servers that they call a "Mega Server". This is all public information I am not violating any Non-disclosure agreement by posting about it. I think this would work spectacularly for DDO if they could afford to implement it. Especially in light of all the server downtime issues they have been suffering from of late. Here is a copy and paste from the ESO wiki page on the topic as my next post (To reduce the wall of text somewhat).

    Yeah !!! YASM thread ( Yet Another Server Merge )

    First answer is : No.

    Now lets see the reasons why :

    The PUG scene in DDO for lack of a better word is horrible.
    This is NOT a good reason. The PUG Scene is Dead due to ( mainly ) The ******** Streak.
    People DO NOT WANT TO BREAK their precious streak, as a consequence, they do not PUG, they play with close knit groups and with reliable people
    that can handle Elite everywhere at every level. When they look for people they will advertise for members through guild chat and private channels where only
    reliable people will be present.

    Another reason is the No Death Bonus.... Those that run a ******** Streak to High Number consider this as a Penalty when somebody dies, and not what it is : a Bonus for no death.

    Solution, instead of Server Merge :
    Kill The No Death Bonus, Kill the Bravery Bonus and go back to the Underlevel Bonus we had long ago.
    People will PUG gladly, as the more the better to manage a quest 5 Level Higher than the highest party member. ( for the full bonus, Yes that means LVL 8 Characters in Madstone )

    their servers that they call a "Mega Server"
    DDO is not built to support a mega server where everybody is on one single server. From what we know of DDO it doesn't support well more than 100 people in a single instance.
    I'm not sure a Single DDO Server can support more than 10/15K players at a given time.
    So a Mega Server is a No Way without investing huge sums of money into a 8 year old game. ( or put another way : there's better things to do with that money like making another totally different game )
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  2. #62
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I wasn't clear. Obviously there's a wider range of quests at level 18 than 19. What I meant is that you shouldn't be farming level 16 quests to get from 19-20 anymore, so there's no reason to hold. Everyone needs to investigate how long they TR, but for people who TR at a fairly fast pace, you should be running GH first time completion at level 14, running Vale and Lords at level 16 on Elite for first time completion. And doing some farming up through 18 for first time bonuses. Unless you have a full sigil already, you should be skipping necro IV completely. By the time you're ready to go from 19 to 20, you're looking at an hourish time and will likely have already used your day's first time bonus on Vale quests and Lords of Dust. Just take 19 and move on. You CAN hold 19 but there's no reason to. And there's no reason to tell others that they SHOULD be holding 19.
    This is true for you and me. We can solo, shortman, guild/channel run lvl 17 quests to 20, but there are not always LFM’s for that range. You can always find an LFM to do vale stuff, but you do not always see reavers refuge or IQ up.

    The players that cannot solo or refuse to start LFM’s are the ones that are shooting themselves in the foot for taking 19.
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  3. #63
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I wasn't clear. Obviously there's a wider range of quests at level 18 than 19. What I meant is that you shouldn't be farming level 16 quests to get from 19-20 anymore, so there's no reason to hold. Everyone needs to investigate how long they TR, but for people who TR at a fairly fast pace, you should be running GH first time completion at level 14, running Vale and Lords at level 16 on Elite for first time completion. And doing some farming up through 18 for first time bonuses. Unless you have a full sigil already, you should be skipping necro IV completely. By the time you're ready to go from 19 to 20, you're looking at an hourish time and will likely have already used your day's first time bonus on Vale quests and Lords of Dust. Just take 19 and move on. You CAN hold 19 but there's no reason to. And there's no reason to tell others that they SHOULD be holding 19.
    Another thing to the positive in this discussion is Turbine limited the finite amount of XP that someone could get from specific content, and made it an infinite amount. So farming GH at level 14 isnt really an issue anymore like it would have been previously. IMO theres only one reason to take 19 and thats if the toon gains significant power doing so. Keeping 18 spreads out the options and people can farm the content they like to get to 20 rather than only being able to farm what they havent already plowed to the ground. But yeah, Its not really a blanket statement anymore that people should be holding 18, because they are no longer limiting the amount of XP they can get by doing so, even if they have less options content wise.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #64
    The Hatchery Paleus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddragon87 View Post
    The fact remains that if you open the LFM panel and see less then 3 PUG's then there is an issue.
    Feels like deja vu but I'll say what I've said in the last number of these threads. Server mergers might reduce some of the symptoms you're seeing of a lower pug scene, but it has several root causes that aren't fixed by a server merge.

    The XP/min, bravery streak, and death penalties decrease people's desire to pug with strangers, the guild/channel/solo questing in this game makes it easier for people to avoid pugging, and the XP Pots/VIP Bonus/Otto Stones/TR level curves reduce the chances that people are going to be leveling at the same pace to stay within the windows they want to play quests at (refer back to bravery streak and XP requirements).

    Turbine makes money by selling experience, so don't expect that to change, and having TR XP requirements and VIP bonuses to XP make enough sense to be hard to argue against. People have been arguing to remove the death penalty almost as long as they do for server mergers, so I'm not holding out hope. And while we recognize the problem of the bravery bonus, we know if it was taken away it just anger people that liked the bonus and likely won't see a supplemental reduction/adjustment to xp to compensate.

    So, the only real thing I see as a reasonable thing to try changing is the perception that pugs are horrible. Sure, there may be some random bad experiences, but the vet to new player ratio at this point is so off what it was in the heyday that everyone I've met pugging knows what they are doing about as good as everyone else, and its a good way to meet new people.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post

    What would be more feasible for Turbine would be to emulate the Rift model, where you have a home server and spend most of your time there, but the LFG panel worked across all servers in a cluster. Live on Server A, join a group on Server B, and you get hopped over to B for the duration, then you go back.

    .
    This.

    However, I would also be happy for straight up server merges. The LFM is often sparse during the hours I play.
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  6. #66
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    This is true for you and me. We can solo, shortman, guild/channel run lvl 17 quests to 20, but there are not always LFM’s for that range. You can always find an LFM to do vale stuff, but you do not always see reavers refuge or IQ up.

    The players that cannot solo or refuse to start LFM’s are the ones that are shooting themselves in the foot for taking 19.
    I do epic elite questing from 20-28 and that does not always fill when I put up LFMS. I rarely see LFMs in game for that type of questing. I prefer to group rather then solo which I find boring. The characters that I make reflect this as they tend to be group oriented rather then the best solo character types (e.g. is shiradi wizard which I do not have) because soloing is so boring, but working as a group is so much more fun thus I enjoy making the group better with my characters. It varies a little bit for if/how quickly lfms fill when I throw them up from character to character as some of my characters on my server are less well known then others. My tank grumblegut (two weapon fighting tank) is well known and has been building back the reputation as I am levelling because he makes everybody elses life easier by getting agro on all mobs, mitigating damage and self healing thus grumblegut does not ever require a healer in a party and he is in a lot of ways better then any healer for the other party members. This is nice because I never have to wait for anything just people that kill or dps things.

    If there was a server merge it would only help players like me because the pool of players and LFMs would grow immensely. The real problem is the fact that the servers probably could not handle more people on them. It is a sad thing when Turbine is not willing to invest in better servers or the like so they could make a change which would improve this game immensely like merging the servers. If you wanted evidence that this game is dying there it is Turbine is not even willing to invest money to make a necessary change for DDO.
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  7. #67
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Over the past few years, many of the worthless people were weeded out and the ones that remained have learned to adapt to short manning, self-sufficiency, and remembering where the traps are located. Now that they have adapted and can survive, why should they bring in someone that could possibly train wreck their fun?

    IMHO, the servers are full of people at any given time, they just do not pug. Combining servers will only cause lag and you will just be mixing Sarlona people that do not pug with Oiren people that do not pug (or any other servers).
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  8. #68
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I do epic elite questing from 20-28 and that does not always fill when I put up LFMS. I rarely see LFMs in game for that type of questing. I prefer to group rather then solo which I find boring. The characters that I make reflect this as they tend to be group oriented rather then the best solo character types (e.g. is shiradi wizard which I do not have) because soloing is so boring, but working as a group is so much more fun thus I enjoy making the group better with my characters. It varies a little bit for if/how quickly lfms fill when I throw them up from character to character as some of my characters on my server are less well known then others. My tank grumblegut (two weapon fighting tank) is well known and has been building back the reputation as I am levelling because he makes everybody elses life easier by getting agro on all mobs, mitigating damage and self healing thus grumblegut does not ever require a healer in a party and he is in a lot of ways better then any healer for the other party members. This is nice because I never have to wait for anything just people that kill or dps things.

    If there was a server merge it would only help players like me because the pool of players and LFMs would grow immensely. The real problem is the fact that the servers probably could not handle more people on them. It is a sad thing when Turbine is not willing to invest in better servers or the like so they could make a change which would improve this game immensely like merging the servers. If you wanted evidence that this game is dying there it is Turbine is not even willing to invest money to make a necessary change for DDO.
    Read my above post. You will just be combining a bunch of people that do not pug. If the LFM’s were down because there was no one playing, then sure, combine. The reasons the LFM’s are down is because people like me do not like to pug as much.
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  9. #69
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    Read my above post. You will just be combining a bunch of people that do not pug. If the LFM’s were down because there was no one playing, then sure, combine. The reasons the LFM’s are down is because people like me do not like to pug as much.
    You are wrong about this. A lot of people do pug Vint on my server and the other servers I would imagine as well. I pug 100% of the time. I have some friends that I run with, but I am pretty much a 100% pugger. There are not enough people on the servers altogether is the real issue, but if they combined the servers in some fashion there would be more for us to pug with.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    You are wrong about this. A lot of people do pug Vint on my server and the other servers I would imagine as well. I pug 100% of the time. I have some friends that I run with, but I am pretty much a 100% pugger. There are not enough people on the servers altogether is the real issue, but if they combined the servers in some fashion there would be more for us to pug with.
    Confirmed. I pug with Grumblegut!!!
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  11. #71
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    You are wrong about this. A lot of people do pug Vint on my server and the other servers I would imagine as well. I pug 100% of the time. I have some friends that I run with, but I am pretty much a 100% pugger. There are not enough people on the servers altogether is the real issue, but if they combined the servers in some fashion there would be more for us to pug with.
    Correction: There are not enough people who PUG. The amount of PUGs does not necessarily have anything to do with how many people are online, just how many people want to play in a group of strangers.
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  12. #72
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Correction: There are not enough people who PUG. The amount of PUGs does not necessarily have anything to do with how many people are online, just how many people want to play in a group of strangers.
    You're still doubling the number of puggers.

    I also pug almost exclusively as all my guild members are end game focused now and I'm still TR'ing. And many of my non guild friends don't play anymore so those groups are gone.

    Interestingly enough, most of the people I pug with are not strangers. I pug with them on a semi regular basis when our schedules and character progressions coincide. It's kind of like a dynamic static group.

  13. #73
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    You're still doubling the number of puggers.

    I also pug almost exclusively as all my guild members are end game focused now and I'm still TR'ing. And many of my non guild friends don't play anymore so those groups are gone.

    Interestingly enough, most of the people I pug with are not strangers. I pug with them on a semi regular basis when our schedules and character progressions coincide. It's kind of like a dynamic static group.
    You would have twice the number of PUGers, yes, but you would also have twice the number of people not PUGing, which would eat up resources. MAybe a new PUG server would be what you want, one that had instances that needed a full group to enter. That would be pretty much the only way to ensure PUGs filling every time.
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  14. #74
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    I don't pug often because, quite simply, I lack the patience to wait for the group to fill. When I log in, if I can run the quests I want to run with a hire, then I'm off and questing. If I can't, then I will either go do slayers and periodically check the LFM panel for something I want to run or I will sometimes (rarely) put up an LFM of my own. I don't care if people die in my quests. I don't really care if they slow down the completion time (oddly, completion time is something I don't care about**). I tend to go for full ransack, conquest, debilitation and whatever other bonuses I can pick up along the way. I like killing everything in a quest. If something survives my foray into their domain, well, that is simply not acceptable - except that drow in VoN1; he can survive to tell the tale of my having been there.


    ** I really don't care about completion times much. I just dislike standing around. So, as long as I am doing something, I'm pretty happy. I have run EE Tide Turns, Bargain of Blood, Snitch, and others entirely solo, which uses up a crazy amount of time when you consider I am running it on an Assassin Rogue almost entirely in stealth.

  15. #75
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddragon87 View Post
    I don't see that as a justifiable reason to ignore the issue. 1-3 groups to choose from in a game with such a massive player population seems silly to me. We could have multiple pages of groups to choose from with popular quests filling near instantly or we can maintain the current system where your lucky if your group fills in an hour...assuming you find a group.

    Seems like a no-brainer to me but it is dependent on Turbines resources and willingness to invest into the upgrade.
    Level 19 is a terrible level for finding PUGs. You picked the absolute worst level to "prove" the PUG scene is empty.

    A better test is to START a LFM and see how fast it fills... I may log on and see no LFMs in my level range, but if I start one, it still fills pretty fast. So I see no problem in the PUG scene.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddragon87 View Post
    As I have said twice in this thread. Turbine would have to invest resources into such a change which they may not deem it a worthwhile investment. Trying to take a stance that I am ignorant and do not know what I am talking about is just ill informed and juvenile. For all you know I work for Turbine and code DDO for a living. This is not the case mind you but you are making pretty grand assumptions about an anonymous person you know nothing about. It is common sense that this would be an investment in time and money for Turbine, likely a very large one. I think it may be a worthwhile one for health of the game. Only Turbine can be the final decider on that one but as this is an open forum I am entitled to my opinion on the matter.
    Heh, for all we know you're just a highly literate housecat.

    Turbine is probably just waiting for everyone on those, uh, "special" (Sarlona and, apparently, Cannith) servers to pay to move their toons elsewhere. No merge necessary.

  17. #77
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    Default won't happen

    DDO engineers have already commented on this issue stating technical issues with regards to merging the servers. This game is now approaching 9 years old, with nearly 8 of those years being in production, and there are limitations based on the original design. However, there are no technical problems that cannot be overcome if a pile of money is thrown at it. The reality is, turbine will not be throwing a pile of money on this.

    There are marketing reasons why this won't happen as well. As stated by others in this thread, server merges would pretty much state a beginning to the end off DDO.

    Server merges will not address the root cause of the problem. And the root cause of the problem is a declining player population coupled with a lack of new player acquisition and retention. There are many reasons for this problem, of which I am not going into, I just wanted to say that until this issue is resolved the game will eventually fail. And merging the servers is not a way to solve this problem.

    Long gone are the days where we used to have multiple harbor and marketplace instances. This was a good indication of how well the worlds were populated. You can argue that the public area is more spread out now than the old days, which is true. But you don't see multiple eveningstar instances either.

    The game population is dying. We need fresh new blood in this game. If we as a community won't help and support the newbs as they come in, then we're done here. It will only be a matter of time. Think about this next time you post your next selfish "BYOH, know it, no dying" LFMs. Because this isn't helping the game.

    Long Live teh Newbs!!! They will be our future. And try to think back and remember, we've all been there.

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  18. #78
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Correction: There are not enough people who PUG. The amount of PUGs does not necessarily have anything to do with how many people are online, just how many people want to play in a group of strangers.
    EXACTLY!!!

    You may have enough people to fill the LFM panel to make everyone happy, but at the same time you will be crashing the server. For every person that is interested in joining a pug there is someone else (maybe more) that would rather: PVP, RP, Channel run, Guild run, solo, multi box, be afk while watching their children, just checking the ah, just chat with friends while on the airship or any other amount of things that people do WITHOUT ever hitting the LFM panel.

    I am not saying that people do not want to pug, but with the sheer amount of people on a server compared to the amount that wants to pug you would be server crashes even during non-peak times. The only real solution to this would be if they made a server for people that loved to PUG exclusively. But you know as well as I that this will likely not happen unless Turbine can find a way to cash in on it.
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  19. #79
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddragon87 View Post
    It just goes back to the fact that DDO is a social game. If there are no people to play with it is not very social.
    There are plenty of people to play with. The key is to try to make connections because as you said DDO is very much a social game. If you join a pug and nobody is talking to each other, politely leave after the quest is complete and find a new group. Keep doing this until you find a group with friendly talkative players.

    When you run into players who are friendly, try to be friendly yourself. Be willing to listen to their advice even if you don't necessarily agree with them. Try to make connections and eventually those connections may get you into a good guild and user channels.

    Too often have I seen new players who are completely unwilling to listen to anything the more experienced players try to suggest and will often outright ignore anything told to them. Such players are frequently left behind by reforming around them and that is yet another opportunity lost to make connections and get access to more grouping options.

    Once again, as you said, this is a social game. Be prepared to be social or be solo.


    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    So let me get this straight. One must be an expert in how to implement a system to make a generalized request?
    The OP did not make a generalized request. He made a statement that the "Mega Server" technology utilized by Zenimax would "work spectacularly for DDO". He then posted what looks to be nothing more than a copy of a news media's article as if that would somehow prove his point.

    You are absolutely correct. One does not need to be an expert to suggest or make a request. But if one is going to state that something is beneficial they should at least back it up with knowledge and not buzzwords and media hype. Ever read Dilbert? The OP comes across as the pointy-haired boss who throws words around that he never understands at all while the engineers shake their heads knowing they'll be forced to deal with the problems that their boss is about to inflict on them.


    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    BTW I love the vague unstated inference that you are such an expert, naturally intended to help you sound authoritative, but not specifically detailed so you can't be nailed down and called out on it. Well played.
    I never stated that I was an expert. I simply stated that I have researched into the means necessary to create an MMO. Both client-side and server-side. Both completely from scratch (Unity with Java & SQL) as well as using pre-existing engines (HeroEngine and BigWorld Tech). Furthermore I have experience working with SMAUG as it felt like a good starting point to get my feet wet with online game development.
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  20. #80
    Community Member Golddragon87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Level 19 is a terrible level for finding PUGs. You picked the absolute worst level to "prove" the PUG scene is empty.

    A better test is to START a LFM and see how fast it fills... I may log on and see no LFMs in my level range, but if I start one, it still fills pretty fast. So I see no problem in the PUG scene.
    Or maybe I chose the example that would demonstrate the issue at it's worse?
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