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  1. #1
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Default Ideas for making the old raids relevant again

    Here's my idea about making a lot of raids relevant again while introducing an endgame that would hopefully not be crazy difficult to implement.

    I don't want to see almost all of the epic sands items, almost all of the epic VON items, and the rest of outdated epic items get updated. There are just too many of them, we have enough gear to deal with as is, and the power creep needs to be slowed, not accelerated.

    For these reasons, a system in which newly acquired epic gear from older raids could be turned into unique augments or turned into augment slots on existing gear seems optimal. Think of it as pulling the magical properties from the gear and combining it into other gear, although it wouldn't make much sense to take the actual abilities from the specific gear (for the most part). Each raid could offer a unique set of augments and augmenting options (through the named gear) in order to encourage people to run them all. For example, LOB could offer an item that could be broken down to obtain a Ruby of Stunning X, while a particular epic Sands item might be able to be drained in order to add a red slot to an existing item.

    This would eliminate the need to update a ton of gear, it would make gearing characters easier and hopefully open up some gear slots, and the raid gear would not need to be updated again in a couple years (unlike if the items are updated) so long as the unique augments and augment adding abilities weren't made available elsewhere.

    The other thing that would need to go along with this, is updating the old raid difficulties and adding epic options to raids that currently don't have them. This is key.

    What are your ideas for making the old raids relevant again, forumites?

  2. #2
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Here's my idea about making a lot of raids relevant again while introducing an endgame that would hopefully not be crazy difficult to implement.

    I don't want to see almost all of the epic sands items, almost all of the epic VON items, and the rest of outdated epic items get updated. There are just too many of them, we have enough gear to deal with as is, and the power creep needs to be slowed, not accelerated.

    For these reasons, a system in which newly acquired epic gear from older raids could be turned into unique augments or turned into augment slots on existing gear seems optimal. Think of it as pulling the magical properties from the gear and combining it into other gear, although it wouldn't make much sense to take the actual abilities from the specific gear (for the most part). Each raid could offer a unique set of augments and augmenting options (through the named gear) in order to encourage people to run them all. For example, LOB could offer an item that could be broken down to obtain a Ruby of Stunning X, while a particular epic Sands item might be able to be drained in order to add a red slot to an existing item.

    This would eliminate the need to update a ton of gear, it would make gearing characters easier and hopefully open up some gear slots, and the raid gear would not need to be updated again in a couple years (unlike if the items are updated) so long as the unique augments and augment adding abilities weren't made available elsewhere.

    The other thing that would need to go along with this, is updating the old raid difficulties and adding epic options to raids that currently don't have them. This is key.

    What are your ideas for making the old raids relevant again, forumites?
    When you click the portal and get choices of difficulties. Add epic N/H/E.
    Done.

  3. #3
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Epic items I think at this point are easy enough.
    - Replace any stat or skill that is below or equal to an augment value with a pre-slotted augment. That ML20 epic item with WIS6 ... make it a colorless preslotted w/ WIS 6. This will ensure enough items with nifty unique or rare effects are still usable at cap.
    - Fix drop rates in Sands.

    Items in general
    - Identify a number of effects similar to what FoS was hinting at that tie the ability to the current ML of the item. Sprinkle those in to existing raid items (epic and/or heroic). Not just weapon damage effects, but possibly scaling spell power, lore, vitality/false life whatever.
    - Add a slot to Dragontouched
    - Ensure the classic D&D SRD items are current and relevant. I'm sentimental.
    - Re-level augment MLs based on the new loot drop rates and MLs. What should be the ML on a stat+4, stat+6 or stat+8 augment ?

    Raids
    - Change reaver sigil to be tied to relics, not 20 of each scale
    - Add slot to all Hound / VoX items.
    - Drop ML 18/20 Hound / VoX items to Ml 13-14. Burn the Bracelet of Madness and feed it to the wolves.
    - Add unique augment or two to each raid. Unique. Maybe multiple damage flags, maybe things like spell lore for relevant spells. Augments should be ML16. Things that make the raid easier, or things that represent the monsters in the raid. Some options
    - - - TOD: Healing amp augment; devil DR breaker augment; augment to add damage to monk fists
    - - - VoD: Exploding weapon augment (bats); combo search/disable enhancement bonus augment
    - - - HoX: Light resistance; recharging beholder-/spell-absorbing augment; intim booster?
    - - - DQ: Seeker augment ... call it The Blood Stone; augment with DR slashing + lifeshield
    - - - MA: Rust resistances; exceptional fortification
    - Increase the tome drop rates specifically with raids.
    - Have raids drop CoV, even in heroic (but only raids that have a replay timer)
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  4. #4
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    How about a couple things instead:

    Epic Vale with 3 more rounds of gs crafting, gs weapons stay level 20 to use through your epic TR

    Old Epic items: you no longer need all three of shard, seal, scroll to upgrade an item you can add them one at a time and the item increases in power. Again these stay at level 20 so farming them out gives you an advantage when epic TRing

    Reworked Restless isles pack with more quests and Epic versions

    New endgame Forgotten realms raid which is a bit more generous with comms than CITW.

    Epic TOD with useful rings to use at cap
    Last edited by gzargel; 11-19-2013 at 11:25 PM.

  5. #5
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    I'd rather they just pick one item for each character archetype from each raid that is underwhelming and push it up in power a bit.

    Not everyone will want them, but a buff to (only) the eChrono Axe and the eChrono caster armor, making both really strong from 20 to 25, would breathe some new life into that raid. Sure lots of characters will still want neither and might still skip the raid, but it would no longer be effectively deleted like it is now.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    When you click the portal and get choices of difficulties. Add epic N/H/E.
    Done.
    +1
    Quote Originally Posted by gzargel View Post
    How about a couple things instead:

    Epic Vale with 3 more rounds of gs crafting, gs weapons stay level 20 to use through your epic TR

    Old Epic items: you no longer need all three of shard, seal, scroll to upgrade an item you can add them one at a time and the item increases in power. Again these stay at level 20 so farming them out gives you an advantage when epic TRing

    Reworked Restless isles pack with more quests and Epic versions

    New endgame Forgotten realms raid which is a bit more generous with comms than CITW.

    Epic TOD with useful rings to use at cap
    +1

  7. #7
    Community Member kmoustakas's Avatar
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    Updating the gear of the old raids the same way the gear from the old quests was updated to be the same power level would probably do the trick. Adding slots would be enough.
    OkarisRage, artificer afraid of the reaper
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  8. #8
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    - - - MA: Rust resistances;
    Everbright for warforged!

    hilariously brilliant! I love the idea. especially if they'll get that shine lol

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    What are your ideas for making the old raids relevant again, forumites?
    Caught in the Web:
    • Make Commendations of Heroism drop at the same rate as Fall of Truth
    • Make the Basic version of the weapons only drop on Epic Normal.
    • Make the Planar Conflux version of the weapons drop on Epic Hard.
    • Make the +8 Enhancement bonus version of the weapons drop on Epic Elite.



    Tower of Despair
    • Rings: Make the +6 and +1 Exceptional stats on the rings into a colorless and another color slot preslotted with an “Unstable Shavarath Augment of…” This would be an augment that is Level 18 and can either be overwritten *or* unslotting it will destroy the item it was taken from.
    • Necklace/Belts: Either turn these into dual slot items filled with more “Unstable Shavarath Augment of…” effects, or allow us to crunch these into colorless augments for the set bonus.
    • Set Bonuses: Would need to be handled on a case by case basis. However, I think it should be a basic effect plus an augmented effect based off of core enhancements purchased for the PrE. (ex. Henshin Mystic makes your centered weapons Flaming. A character with the Henshin Mystic capstone would have Fire VI weapons.)


    Epic Raids: (ex. VoN, DQ, Chronoscope)
    Create EN/EH/EE versions of the loot. Make sure they are all BtCoE. If necessary, drop the explorer area loot in the epic quest nearest to the heroic chest that drops it.

    Scrolls/Heroic items are worth 3 points.
    Seals/EN items are worth 6 points.
    Shards/EH items are worth 9 Points.

    6 Points nets you an EN item.
    12 points nets you an EH item.
    21 points of any combination will net you an EE item.
    Last edited by QuantumFX; 11-20-2013 at 01:35 AM.
    Things worthy of Standing Stone going EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on.:
    • NEW - Fix the flipping non-proficiency penalties for wildshape!
    • Redo the Favor rewards so there is a reason to do max favor again.
    • Redoing the drop rates of tomes in generic and raid loot tables.
    • Task Lynnabel with updating the remaining legacy named loot to not suck.
    • Tiering the Runearms so that artificers aren’t screwed out of the advantages of Cannith Crafting in Epic levels on their signature item.
    • Finishing the enhancement tree passes (including racial PrE’s) before rolling out yet another DDOStore™ Enhancement Tree.

  10. #10
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    Epic Raids: (ex. VoN, DQ, Chronoscope)
    Create EN/EH/EE versions of the loot. Make sure they are all BtCoE. If necessary, drop the explorer area loot in the epic quest nearest to the heroic chest that drops it.
    Most of these are agreeable but, please no selling Raid loot on the AH. In fact retire or significantly change this mechanic because IMO it's a big factor in why people have left DDO in droves the last 15 or 16 months I was a big proponent of BtcoE sellable epic loot before I observed first hand how much it made me (and clearly others) not bother running content at all... Once I bought the loot off the AH I simply had ZERO MOTIVATION TO RUN THE QUEST unless it also had top XP and was for that reason popping up a lot in the LFM panel.

    Someone had the great idea of making EN loot BtcoE, making EH account bound on acquire, and EE character bound. I think this is a brilliant solution that satiates SOME auction house functionality, while helping people to still be motivated to get the loot themselves. EH is often "good enough" for many people, but if they only had the ability to buy EN I think they would be motivated to get EH and EE completions to upgrade it. The EE items are often not worth the price premium, and I think they could stand to add an extra augment or + to them over and above what they currently do.

    I think the OP's ideas are sound and would help the tumbleweed raids to be more popular. But I disagree with the idea that they shouldn't get an intern adding pluses and updating old affixes to newer affixes and adding augments. Especially to the old Epic named items. These are just begging to become a new quick and dirty level 28 end game that keeps us busy while they work on the level 30 end game. The bonus would be that these raids would serve as a preliminary gear up to help newer players prepare for the level 30 end game. The new boosted 28 raid and old epic loot, could still be relevant (just a little less shiny than level 30) and niche best in slot items.

  11. #11
    2015 DDO Players Council
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    I don't think it's realistic to expect them to epify every endgame pack like they did to gianthold. It's just too time consuming.

    Realistically, I'd love if they just made epic versions of the raids one at a time and left the flagging quests as is for now to save time. Epic abbot, shroud, hound, VoD, titan, tempest spine, ect. Then just add new epic loot that is based on but better than the old epic loot.

  12. #12
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    Caught in the Web:
    • Make Commendations of Heroism drop at the same rate as Fall of Truth
    • Make the Basic version of the weapons only drop on Epic Normal.
    • Make the Planar Conflux version of the weapons drop on Epic Hard.
    • Make the +8 Enhancement bonus version of the weapons drop on Epic Elite.



    Tower of Despair
    • Rings: Make the +6 and +1 Exceptional stats on the rings into a colorless and another color slot preslotted with an “Unstable Shavarath Augment of…” This would be an augment that is Level 18 and can either be overwritten *or* unslotting it will destroy the item it was taken from.
    • Necklace/Belts: Either turn these into dual slot items filled with more “Unstable Shavarath Augment of…” effects, or allow us to crunch these into colorless augments for the set bonus.
    • Set Bonuses: Would need to be handled on a case by case basis. However, I think it should be a basic effect plus an augmented effect based off of core enhancements purchased for the PrE. (ex. Henshin Mystic makes your centered weapons Flaming. A character with the Henshin Mystic capstone would have Fire VI weapons.)


    Epic Raids: (ex. VoN, DQ, Chronoscope)
    Create EN/EH/EE versions of the loot. Make sure they are all BtCoE. If necessary, drop the explorer area loot in the epic quest nearest to the heroic chest that drops it.

    Scrolls/Heroic items are worth 3 points.
    Seals/EN items are worth 6 points.
    Shards/EH items are worth 9 Points.

    6 Points nets you an EN item.
    12 points nets you an EH item.
    21 points of any combination will net you an EE item.
    Wow. Well thought out!

    Devs, please listen to this man.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Most of these are agreeable but, please no selling Raid loot on the AH.
    Yeah, I had a derp moment on the raid loot. That should be straight BtCoA. But stuff in the general quests should be BtCoE.
    Things worthy of Standing Stone going EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on.:
    • NEW - Fix the flipping non-proficiency penalties for wildshape!
    • Redo the Favor rewards so there is a reason to do max favor again.
    • Redoing the drop rates of tomes in generic and raid loot tables.
    • Task Lynnabel with updating the remaining legacy named loot to not suck.
    • Tiering the Runearms so that artificers aren’t screwed out of the advantages of Cannith Crafting in Epic levels on their signature item.
    • Finishing the enhancement tree passes (including racial PrE’s) before rolling out yet another DDOStore™ Enhancement Tree.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    I'd rather they just pick one item for each character archetype from each raid that is underwhelming and push it up in power a bit.

    Not everyone will want them, but a buff to (only) the eChrono Axe and the eChrono caster armor, making both really strong from 20 to 25, would breathe some new life into that raid. Sure lots of characters will still want neither and might still skip the raid, but it would no longer be effectively deleted like it is now.
    Yes. Amazingly enough, when you have items which people want, they will run dungeons/raids to get it.

    This is why I am just astounded at how much effort Turbine puts in to fiddling with random loot - while neglecting named loot. Particularly named loot from raids and EE dungeons.

    My level 22 WF FvS is fully kitted out with Mastercraft/Cursed items which I got from the AH and I bet his gear is probably at 80% to 85% of what a raider is at - who spent dozens, if not hundreds of hours farming.

    Its fine to pander to the lazy/casual, but crazy to neglect the serious players.

  15. #15
    Community Member Cleanincubus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzargel View Post
    How about a couple things instead:

    Epic Vale with 3 more rounds of gs crafting, gs weapons stay level 20 to use through your epic TR

    Old Epic items: you no longer need all three of shard, seal, scroll to upgrade an item you can add them one at a time and the item increases in power. Again these stay at level 20 so farming them out gives you an advantage when epic TRing

    Reworked Restless isles pack with more quests and Epic versions

    New endgame Forgotten realms raid which is a bit more generous with comms than CITW.

    Epic TOD with useful rings to use at cap
    ^ Fantastic ideas!

  16. #16
    Community Member Cleanincubus's Avatar
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    Here's a thought on continuing to use the current Epic Shard, Scroll, and Seal system.

    On EN, have Scrolls continue to drop while killing enemies, as well as part of the loot table for all quest chests, and 3 or so guaranteed to drop in some end chests (especially Raids).

    On EH, have Scrolls continue to drop from enemies, as well as in normal chests. Also have Seals have a decent chance to drop in every chest, and a guaranteed 3 or so drop in the end chest.

    On EE, again, continue to have Scrolls drop from enemies, but not in chests (or drop in chests if that helps to make the loot tables less complicated to code). Have Seals drop regularly in non-end chests. Have Shards drop 3 or so guaranteed in the end chest, as well as part of the NPC turn-in loot table for completing the quest. Also have a much larger number drop of Shards for that NPC turn-in, for the 20th completion.

    I understand that there are going to be more than a few people who will consider this a dumbing down, or easy button. But this suggestion is for the upgrades of current gear that is available in Epic quests. If older Epic gear is actually updated to be competitive with what some of the newer gear, then my suggestion would certainly change, But for a transitional period, I believe this could work.


    But here's the reality of the entire Epic dilemma. Turbine needs to decide what Epic Packs need to be upgraded to what specific level. Do they really need to upgrade items for Epic Packs, that not many players actually play? Should they just make lesser played Epic content simply useful at levels 21-22, while making more played content's items entirely useful from level 20-28. Look at Heroic content. Are gear from Korthos better than gear from Vale? Of course not. So all Epic gear should not be equal. An level 21 quest should not have items that are as useful as items from an upcoming level 30 Epic raid. So in reality, upgrading items from existing Epic content is a very slippery slope, but a slope that needs to be ascended, to properly have its place within the level 20-30 range.
    Last edited by Cleanincubus; 12-05-2013 at 10:19 PM.

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