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  1. #201
    Community Member soloist12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Uhhh.... I've been reading this thread all day. Pretty habitually (sick atm, nothing better to do). Checking it every 10 minutes. I've seen a separate thread pop up about "needing a brain transplant" but haven't seen ANY post in this thread as an attack on Varg, or anyone else.

    If one individual made a post which got cubed, it's that individual, not the tone of the thread.



    Cord, in that DDOCast hangout you did with Tolero and Glin, Tolero said "we got lots of positive feedback on sagas and assumed everyone liked them for our initial plans for CoVs. After the backlash, we went and ran the numbers and saw that they're not as popular as we thought."

    The problem isn't in Sagas themselves, the problem is that half of the epic sagas force you to run U19 content. Content that the community jeers as "Shadowfail". This current implementation of CoV payout once again heavily penalizes Eberron content, which is half the number of Epic Quests (discounting raids) in favor of "Shadowfail" content.

    There are NO quests at level 25. There is one raid. Farming a raid for CoVs is an absurd notion.
    U20 added a Level 26 and Level 28 quest.
    The ONLY other content above level 24 is U19. Run the numbers, you'll see that the content isn't run by the majority of your playerbase.
    We're not rewarded enough for running the majority of Epic content, which is all level 24 and below.


    We didn't like the original proposal because it was heavily biased towards U19 content. We don't like this implementation because it's still heavily biased for U19 content.

    We don't like U19.
    Shadar-kai's AoE without saves. Howler Madness that gets applied infinitely many times (stacking rules thrown out the window). Howler Quills with no way to address them (heal? panacea? there's no way to play around them). Purple Haze. Insane Mabar-riffic number of spawns in both Wheloon and Storm Horns.

    WE DON'T LIKE THE CONTENT. Trying to coerce the playerbase into playing the content more is being met with resistance.
    Common sense like this won't get anywhere with them, as witnessed in the past. As far as I can tell, it's not up to the devs to make decisions or they would actually incorporate ideas from the only people palying the game - it's people that have no idea what a game is about that are enforcing completely off the wall, ******** ideas, and generally bad/annoying content.

    Unfortunately, quality enjoyable rewarding content ended at MotU, with no evidence of such ever coming back.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Cord, in that DDOCast hangout you did with Tolero and Glin, Tolero said "we got lots of positive feedback on sagas and assumed everyone liked them for our initial plans for CoVs. After the backlash, we went and ran the numbers and saw that they're not as popular as we thought."

    The problem isn't in Sagas themselves, the problem is that half of the epic sagas force you to run U19 content. Content that the community jeers as "Shadowfail". This current implementation of CoV payout once again heavily penalizes Eberron content, which is half the number of Epic Quests (discounting raids) in favor of "Shadowfail" content.
    Exactly. It was a nice addition as an option to play, so response was positive. You _could_ do them. When they are force-fed as the only way to play, they change from a nice option to a mandatory evil. And lets face it, the ED system has too much mandatory blandness already.

    Forcing us to play the new bland quests, not cool. Not cool.

    We didn't like the original proposal because it was heavily biased towards U19 content. We don't like this implementation because it's still heavily biased for U19 content.

    We don't like U19.
    Shadar-kai's AoE without saves. Howler Madness that gets applied infinitely many times (stacking rules thrown out the window). Howler Quills with no way to address them (heal? panacea? there's no way to play around them). Purple Haze. Insane Mabar-riffic number of spawns in both Wheloon and Storm Horns.

    WE DON'T LIKE THE CONTENT. Trying to coerce the playerbase into playing the content more is being met with resistance.
    Truth.

    I got the preorder, stupid me. Played through the Wheloon quests once, then promptly cancelled my VIP. Since I've gone to Wheloon prison twice, both times doing the quests on Heroic Elite on near-capped epic toons. The amount of mobs was annoying even on heroic levels. At least on heroic I could just run in and melee. Endlessly running backwards and shooting arrows isn't my definition of fun.

    I hear Storm Horns quests are better, I have no idea. We went there early days, tried to find a quest, instead found red alert from the silly amount of spawns there. Ended up ragequitting, and I at least haven't stepped to the forest since, however pretty it was.

  3. #203
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    Default buying hearts instead of XP-pots?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Which if true will cut into their XP pot sales.

    Well played Turbine!
    And maybe hope that people will buy the hearts with the money saved from not buying XP-Pots?

    I actually think that would be a clever way to avoid the "sorry I can't run this with new people bcause I have a pot running" argument that is used far too often when discussing why PUGs are almost non existant.

  4. #204
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    Default Remember that the second time through, you will get only a handfull of % from that

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie_Seaglen View Post
    Running Epic Hard without repeating will put anyone with a greater tome of learning close to or at cap. I got to Lvl 28 before I got to the Storm Horns (well there were a few VON IIIs in there too).

    I don't think "The Epic Reincarnation cycle" means what you think it means. Either that, or your definition is completely different from everyone else's.

    I was already part way through 27 when comms hit and I have 420 now. I am 10% of the way there. By my definition, "The Epic Reincarnation cycle" hits at 28, but I am weeks if not months away from that using your definition.
    Remember that the second time through (after doing your ETR) you will get neither the first time bonus from the ToLearning nor the bonuses from first time playthrough (and far less from explorers), so that you will be doing maybe half as much or even 2x as many quests before you get to lvl28 though. So its possible that the first time you do it, you will have only little comms, but on the other hand won't need as many XP-pots and you gain TP from favor a bit too. But the second and up to 12th time you will have a more of a "balance" between the comms and XP gained (but it will be quite the grind, I guess, especially if you do not have the spheres all filled already).

  5. #205
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    Default Lets just say sorry Varg, we are glad that you communicate instead?

    Quote Originally Posted by deahamlet View Post
    Several people posted numbers and discussions and you didn't answer any of THOSE. But you answer some personal attacks, which I didn't even notice unless you already deleted them while I was asleep. So what kind of posts are YOU encouraging, hmmm?

    This response from you Cordovan is a slap in the face to all the very informative posts in this thread. A slap. It is possible to communicate with the community without strong-arm tactics while ignoring our issues or numbers. You FAIL at that.
    THis is the second post I just read where someone found the time to say that they had not seen any harsh language towards any devs. I have been reading here in the last couple of days trying to catch up, and I have seen a LOT of people who attack Varg for answering the way he did in his last posts, for not answering at all, and a whole load of people saying that Turbine/Varg doesn't play or complain that they want people to play in a different way than they do now.

    So yes, there is indeed a high lvl of mean comments, and I admire any dev who reads it all and brings up the guts to try and answer justified concerns and communicate. Thanks for that.


    I think there is also a lot of good information in all the posts about how people play, how they fare in collecting comms vs. how they get XP etc. The one poster mentioning not earning enough comms when they had bought the Ottos stone had me chuckling (I do hope it was not meant seriously), its pretty clear that if you effectively skip a few lvls that you won't earn enough comms that live, and that is WAI.

    Why is it strange that Turbine puts a big part of the more available comms in their newest pack? And if those quests take more time and effort, isn't it only fair that they also offer a decent reward in comms, especially if the XP and loot these quests offer are less than great?

    I have seen people mention that it will be a 30 hour "grind" and that is too much. Now, I do not know whether that number is correct. But I do think that the fact that you can earn a Heroic Heart in only about 5-6 hours of "grind" is one of the reasons for Turbine to rethink how to earn them, because its too easy for balance. I would think that anything up to about 50 hours of such a grind could be acceptable, although I for the life of my cannot understand why anyone would want to grind out 12x Epic TR as fast as possible "grinding" it out, only to then be disgusted to do any quest in the game because they have seen them a million times already and cannot stomach playing anymore.

    To round it up, thank you everyone for posting with interesting ideas on what to improve, and all of you who have shared their experience of how many comms they were able to earn with what effort compared to earning the XP and/or Karma.

    I do think that by now everyone would welcome the possibility to have a Comms option for Saga rewards to ease our ways. And the amounts needed really seem to be on the high side to me, maybe they really are scaled for a level cap of 30 already?

  6. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    Why is it strange that Turbine puts a big part of the more available comms in their newest pack? And if those quests take more time and effort, isn't it only fair that they also offer a decent reward in comms, especially if the XP and loot these quests offer are less than great?
    Because there isn't enough 25+ content to only run 25+ content.

  7. #207
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    Why is it strange that Turbine puts a big part of the more available comms in their newest pack? And if those quests take more time and effort, isn't it only fair that they also offer a decent reward in comms, especially if the XP and loot these quests offer are less than great?
    Number of Epic, non-raid quests: 69.
    Number of Level 20-24 quests: 57
    Number of Level 25-30 quests: 12

    See a problem now?

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nascoe View Post
    THis is the second post I just read where someone found the time to say that they had not seen any harsh language towards any devs. I have been reading here in the last couple of days trying to catch up, and I have seen a LOT of people who attack Varg for answering the way he did in his last posts, for not answering at all, and a whole load of people saying that Turbine/Varg doesn't play or complain that they want people to play in a different way than they do now.

    So yes, there is indeed a high lvl of mean comments, and I admire any dev who reads it all and brings up the guts to try and answer justified concerns and communicate. Thanks for that.


    I think there is also a lot of good information in all the posts about how people play, how they fare in collecting comms vs. how they get XP etc. The one poster mentioning not earning enough comms when they had bought the Ottos stone had me chuckling (I do hope it was not meant seriously), its pretty clear that if you effectively skip a few lvls that you won't earn enough comms that live, and that is WAI.

    Why is it strange that Turbine puts a big part of the more available comms in their newest pack? And if those quests take more time and effort, isn't it only fair that they also offer a decent reward in comms, especially if the XP and loot these quests offer are less than great?

    I have seen people mention that it will be a 30 hour "grind" and that is too much. Now, I do not know whether that number is correct. But I do think that the fact that you can earn a Heroic Heart in only about 5-6 hours of "grind" is one of the reasons for Turbine to rethink how to earn them, because its too easy for balance. I would think that anything up to about 50 hours of such a grind could be acceptable, although I for the life of my cannot understand why anyone would want to grind out 12x Epic TR as fast as possible "grinding" it out, only to then be disgusted to do any quest in the game because they have seen them a million times already and cannot stomach playing anymore.

    To round it up, thank you everyone for posting with interesting ideas on what to improve, and all of you who have shared their experience of how many comms they were able to earn with what effort compared to earning the XP and/or Karma.

    I do think that by now everyone would welcome the possibility to have a Comms option for Saga rewards to ease our ways. And the amounts needed really seem to be on the high side to me, maybe they really are scaled for a level cap of 30 already?
    All I have to say is because the new content is absolute junk compared to the older... for the most part. I like MOTU stuff, which is fairly new, but u19 stuff is absolute garbage. It's easily the dumbest high level idea ever. Humanoids as the main enemy as level 28 content? Herp. Gnolls and orcs should die by an epic pc LOOKING at them. Mechanically they aren't fun either, but I could care less because the idea of beating an army has already been done, and at a more appropriate level of 13-15 (Second Lordsmarch Chain)

  9. #209
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Some of the language being used against one of our employees is not appropriate. It is possible to say you disagree with an assessment without resorting to personal attacks or insults. Please do so. Also, insulting people is generally not a great way to get them to communicate with you. If you feel that the numbers are off, please state that in a way that follows the Community Guidelines.
    What the hell are you talking about? Unless you interpret simple disagreement as inappropriate now, which wouldn't surprise me considering how PC you guys are. "Oh no! He used a cuss word! RUN!"
    Cetus Heroic Lives: #32/32 | Epic Completionist: #20/24 | Iconic Lives: #6/6
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  10. #210
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    Here is an example of a play session yesterday evening.

    Code:
    Quest                 	Diff	Time (m)	Comms	Rate/Min
    Impossible Demands	EE	1	             30	30
    Fathom the Depths	EE	8	             30	3.75
    The Prisoner	        EE	9	             30	3.333333333
    Tharask Arena	        EE	10	             30	3
    The Last Stand	        EE	11	             30	2.727272727
    The Claw of Vulkoor	EE	11	             30	2.727272727
    The Snitch	        EE	10	             25	2.5
    Army of Shadow	        EE	43	             55	1.279069767
    VoN 5/6	                EH	23	             18	0.782608696
    Devil Assault	        EE	45	             30	0.666666667
    Now, not every quest was maxilmally efficient (most were), so ymmv. If some of you know you have average completion times below those listed, and mind you these were all pugged, feel free to report yours.
    Last edited by myliftkk_v2; 11-20-2013 at 09:04 AM.

  11. #211
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Here is an example of a play session yesterday evening.

    Code:
    Quest                 	Diff	Time (m)	Comms	Rate/Min
    Impossible Demands	EE	1	             30	30
    Fathom the Depths	EE	8	             30	3.75
    The Prisoner	        EE	9	             30	3.333333333
    Tharask Arena	        EE	10	             30	3
    The Last Stand	        EE	11	             30	2.727272727
    The Claw of Vulkoor	EE	11	             30	2.727272727
    The Snitch	        EE	10	             25	2.5
    Army of Shadow	        EE	43	             55	1.279069767
    VoN 5/6	                EH	23	             18	0.782608696
    Devil Assault	        EE	45	             30	0.666666667
    Now, not every quest was maxilmally efficient (most were), so ymmv. If some of you know you have average completion times below those listed, and mind you these were all pugged, feel free to report yours.

    Your getting higher amount of CoV drops on higher level quests on higher difficulties. Add High Road into your rotation for even more, 45+ on EE and Druids Curse.

    Looks like 200+ in 2+hrs, same average as I am. So it will take you, 21 hours to get a heart, or at 2 hours a day, 11 days.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Your getting higher amount of CoV drops on higher level quests on higher difficulties. Add High Road into your rotation for even more, 45+ on EE and Druids Curse.

    Looks like 200+ in 2+hrs, same average as I am. So it will take you, 21 hours to get a heart, or at 2 hours a day, 11 days.
    I will be rotating through other quests, like the ones you said, at varying difficulties to add significantly to that list while actually writing them down, which I didn't do before yesterday evening. I'm generally ambivalent on the particulars of most quests, so I don't really hate or like content in the varying degrees of some. The rate/min is really the only thing that's important to me atm.

    I do agree that random sampling seems to suggest a ~300/~150m rate is decently achievable. If so, then I wonder if that can't be quite a bit improved upon by concentrating on only the high rate/min content (once it's identified).

    ETA: The army of shadow time is likely too high on average. I joined an EE in progress, they were 21m when I hit the lfm, and hadn't quite cleared the lever to drop the drawbridge when I got there. It was a blitzkrieg after that though, but it was a less than full party and the undead worm at the end is an HP balloon.
    Last edited by myliftkk_v2; 11-20-2013 at 09:38 AM.

  13. #213
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    The House K / Fens on a fast cycle may end up being my rotation; for me it isn't just time in quest, it is time-to-quest. Quick t-port over to P to hit Snitch to round it out as they are all fast, and don't involve a ton of transit time. We did a dry run the other night (but we did a bigger selection) between a buddy and mine on our wizards; was quick enough. Only thing that worried us was Snitch - too many "gather party" breakpoints. We pugged the other 4 spots on the whole run, and that was the only one I remember being a "wait" moment.
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    The House K / Fens on a fast cycle may end up being my rotation; for me it isn't just time in quest, it is time-to-quest. Quick t-port over to P to hit Snitch to round it out as they are all fast, and don't involve a ton of transit time. We did a dry run the other night (but we did a bigger selection) between a buddy and mine on our wizards; was quick enough. Only thing that worried us was Snitch - too many "gather party" breakpoints. We pugged the other 4 spots on the whole run, and that was the only one I remember being a "wait" moment.
    I agree, The Snitch can be slightly dicey on gather points. I've asked late joining members to stay out until an ecounter starts if we're right at/very near a gather point since I usually start Snitch and post the lfm at the same time. So you could probably shave off a minute or two starting completely together. Because of the map however, it is easy to get from start to finish quickly for joiners, so I've not waited unusually long at any particular point.

    ETA: Time to quest is an important element as well. House K has both EVoN and ERed Fens right there, airhship/bank/guild vendors, and running through Red Fens wilderness is trivial.
    Last edited by myliftkk_v2; 11-20-2013 at 09:57 AM.

  15. #215
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Uhhh.... I've been reading this thread all day. Pretty habitually (sick atm, nothing better to do). Checking it every 10 minutes. I've seen a separate thread pop up about "needing a brain transplant" but haven't seen ANY post in this thread as an attack on Varg, or anyone else.

    If one individual made a post which got cubed, it's that individual, not the tone of the thread.



    Cord, in that DDOCast hangout you did with Tolero and Glin, Tolero said "we got lots of positive feedback on sagas and assumed everyone liked them for our initial plans for CoVs. After the backlash, we went and ran the numbers and saw that they're not as popular as we thought."

    The problem isn't in Sagas themselves, the problem is that half of the epic sagas force you to run U19 content. Content that the community jeers as "Shadowfail". This current implementation of CoV payout once again heavily penalizes Eberron content, which is half the number of Epic Quests (discounting raids) in favor of "Shadowfail" content.

    There are NO quests at level 25. There is one raid. Farming a raid for CoVs is an absurd notion.
    U20 added a Level 26 and Level 28 quest.
    The ONLY other content above level 24 is U19. Run the numbers, you'll see that the content isn't run by the majority of your playerbase.
    We're not rewarded enough for running the majority of Epic content, which is all level 24 and below.


    We didn't like the original proposal because it was heavily biased towards U19 content. We don't like this implementation because it's still heavily biased for U19 content.

    We don't like U19.
    Shadar-kai's AoE without saves. Howler Madness that gets applied infinitely many times (stacking rules thrown out the window). Howler Quills with no way to address them (heal? panacea? there's no way to play around them). Purple Haze. Insane Mabar-riffic number of spawns in both Wheloon and Storm Horns.

    WE DON'T LIKE THE CONTENT. Trying to coerce the playerbase into playing the content more is being met with resistance.
    True, U19 was a new altime low point for turbine/ddo,
    i hate the 2 packs (i refuse to call it an expansion)
    i dislike being in there for the same reasons. i mean realy? shadow plane stuf at that lv? gnoll 'n orcs?
    geez am i back at lv 13? we stopped bigger treats at lv 20, beating up a big general of the plane of battle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This is what the devs should do . . .

    Take every epic quest in the game.

    Add up how many comms drop running each quest once on EH.

    Take that number, multiply by 1.5 . . . that should be the cost of a new heart.

    Done, don't forget to name it after me.
    Sad part of it all: a troll that realy knows better what to do with the game than it's own dev's and producer.
    Where is this place going?.


    Please turbine folks, drop the coms of valar stuff, bring back epic tokens, ramp it up to 60 tokens for Epic TR-ing and wham, problem solved
    And for ..... sake, stop treating us like children by insulting our intelligence.
    E.G. we told you that we(your paying customers) did not like your new comms and it's numbers, listen to us and keep your customers.
    Stop forcefeeding badly designed systems.

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    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Default A little besides the point I was making though

    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Number of Epic, non-raid quests: 69.
    Number of Level 20-24 quests: 57
    Number of Level 25-30 quests: 12

    See a problem now?
    Hm, you are right that there are far too little quests in epic in general, especially at the higher lvls to not have to repeat them much. Your point is completely a different issue than what I mentioned in my post though. That there is too little too choose from is still no reason for Turbine not to nudge us to play those 25-30 quests by giving the higher Comms rewards there. It just means that they should add MORE of them to make it less repetitive to do it

    But why would they add more of those, when no one will play them anyway because the earlier quests are better value to play (XP-wise, loot wise, some say entertainment wise), at least they now offer the advantage of a bit better Comms reward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Your getting higher amount of CoV drops on higher level quests on higher difficulties. Add High Road into your rotation for even more, 45+ on EE and Druids Curse.

    Looks like 200+ in 2+hrs, same average as I am. So it will take you, 21 hours to get a heart, or at 2 hours a day, 11 days.
    Your numbers are skewed to powergamers. You assume

    -Players can run EE fast and efficient
    -Players can play 2+ hours a day
    -Can find a good group to do EE content.
    -Players ignore their other alts
    -Players do nothing else but grind comms

    Totally different numbers for middle of the road players who play eh and don't have good gear/good guild etc.

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    Default More quests at top lvl

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Because there isn't enough 25+ content to only run 25+ content.
    I agree, we badly need more quests for the higher lvls (and possibly better ones or ones with better rewards/challenge).

    But that is no reason for Turbine not to urge us to play the few that we do have. What I see from many comments, is that people don't do them either because they are still annoyed at having to pay for the Shadowfell (often disguised as not liking the quests), or feel they offer too little reward (XP and Loot for the time they take to complete), so adding relatively high Comm amounts to give players some incentive to run them a couple of times feels logical to me.

    The way I see it, there are quests that offer best XP (or best XP/min), there are quests (or better raids) that offer the best loot and now there are quests that offer relatively highest Comms of Valor. Dependant on what you are looking for, it would make sense to focus on one of those 3, or try and run most content evenly to balance it out.

    I repeat, I do not intend to say that I think the amount of quests one needs to run for earning a heart, nor the amount of KArma needed are fine. Nor am I wanting to argue how good/fun/rewarding which quests are. And I fully agree that we need more quests in higher lvl range that are challenging but give a great feeling of satisfaction (completion being well rewarded) for doing them.

    But none of that should make anyone of us be tough on a developer who actually tries to communicate and explain what Turbine are after (and some posters WERE doing so)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Which if true will cut into their XP pot sales.

    Well played Turbine!
    I'm planning on Iconic TR'ing a bunch on my primary casting character. I just enjoy the 15-28 game more now after having farmed the 1-18 game incessantly. And what I'm seeing is exactly this - no reason to buy XP pots (which I have been known to buy on occasion) other than to get from 15-20. No reason to EVER consider an Epic Otto's Box. I'm going to need all the CoV so the xp is 100% secondary now. Unless they're planning on adding something akin to the guild renown elixir to boost com's that you get then their own design will end up costing them money. I've never been willing to buy hearts as I view them as overpriced and that won't be changing either. Now...I'm one person. I don't know if the numbers will hold true for everyone - just putting how the changes effect me.

    I'm not frustrated about this grind yet simply because I haven't tried it and I'd rather reserve judgment until I actually try out the system. But listening to what others have said and knowing how I play the game I'm going in fully planning to not bother with XP pots, avoid boxes like the plague, and enjoy the fact that I don't really need to slot Master's Gift anywhere anymore. From people's reports the xp will flow faster than the comm's on my preferred content so I'll plan accordingly.
    Tajawuka 20 Bladeforged Paladin running divine ETR's (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's, 3 martial epl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

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