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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    thanks for this, really blows the one and done on EH theory out of the water, especially seeing as the expectation was to get the heart before the cap if you did EE's!

    here is those numbers converted into coms/quest:
    /snip nice table

    So what this means is if I run Breaking the Ice once every day on EE, I would need 4200 : 60 = 70 runs, well over TWO MONTHS to get my comms.
    Toss in EE FoT and it drops to 52 days -still wayyy too much, and flat-out impossible in an off destiny.
    Add Impossible Demands because it's so very quick, and I can gain an average of 100 comms per day -and STILL take well over a month. And in reality it will be much longer as there is NO way I could run Break anf FoT untill I hit level 25 or so (never mind being unable to play because it takes too long to fill a pug).
    And again, without a viable end game, there's no actual REASON to ETR. The past lifes are too weak to be interesting, and there's nothing to enjoy them in anyway.

    Religiously farming the most time/valor efficient quests may mean I *can* hit 4200 in about a month, but, you know, there's this new Discworld book here that I very much want to read, there's all sorts of real life stuff cutting into my free time like the anual school meeting today, and if that's not enough, there's my 8 alts that also want some love. Oh and lets not forget the renown and loot (which I do take regularly since I also need plat)... I'm not GOING to religiously farm anything. Instead, I'll just keep my main at cap, and level my alts to 20 and do a heroic TR.
    If that keeps my interest for another year, I'll then have a look at Endgame: does it exist by then, and is it any good? If not, or if I loose interest before then... Well thanks for all the fish.

    Tl;dr: getting 4200 comms takes WAY to much time afaic, for far too small a benefit. Not going to bother.

    Greetz,
    Red Orm

  2. #122
    Community Member meckmaster's Avatar
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    What's being said now

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    To clarify some of our assumptions:

    - It wasn't our expectation that you play each Epic quest once on Hard and you're done. There's perhaps been some confusion on this point. The goal was matching up Commendations to the XP from all quests at each Epic level.
    - We do assume playing quests at or close to character level, which determines both the XP and the Commendations earned.
    - Because higher level quests aggressively scale up in Commendations rewarded, it is expected that you would not earn half your Commendations by the time you earn half your XP from 20->28. A larger percentage of total Commendations comes from higher level quests. This explicitly aids players already at level cap, as they can run the higher level quests to earn Commendations more efficiently, while it should not adversely affect those who are leveling up by playing Epic Hard quests at their level.
    What was said before U20 going live

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Yes, that's the thinking behind these numbers. Running on Epic Hard can earn you a heart for free on each Epic Reincarnation cycle. If you level entirely up on Epic Elite, you'll have your heart before you are level 28.

  3. #123
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    One other problem with farming comms, there really isnt that much epic content. I've run through the 3 citw flagging chains including the side quests, druids curse, high road, wheloon, lord of dust chain and stormhorns, 4 or 5 times in the past week and I'm already tired of it.

    I suppose I could go and farm some low level (eberron) quests but I'm afraid I'll just gain too much xp...

  4. #124
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    One other problem with farming comms, there really isnt that much epic content. I've run through the 3 citw flagging chains including the side quests, druids curse, high road, wheloon, lord of dust chain and stormhorns, 4 or 5 times in the past week and I'm already tired of it.

    I suppose I could go and farm some low level (eberron) quests but I'm afraid I'll just gain too much xp...
    I really would compare what it was like grinding old epics to get a heroic heart. Is it the same time sink as it was back then? Before CITW and later? Because as they add more epic content, the quest diversity will increase, and the comms you get will increase as well.

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    To clarify some of our assumptions:

    - It wasn't our expectation that you play each Epic quest once on Hard and you're done. There's perhaps been some confusion on this point. The goal was matching up Commendations to the XP from all quests at each Epic level.
    - We do assume playing quests at or close to character level, which determines both the XP and the Commendations earned.
    - Because higher level quests aggressively scale up in Commendations rewarded, it is expected that you would not earn half your Commendations by the time you earn half your XP from 20->28. A larger percentage of total Commendations comes from higher level quests. This explicitly aids players already at level cap, as they can run the higher level quests to earn Commendations more efficiently, while it should not adversely affect those who are leveling up by playing Epic Hard quests at their level.
    What was your expectations? To me it seems the goal was to increase sales of ETR, ITR and HTR hearts. Do not forget HTR were going to cost 2100 coms. Though you back off the HTR hearts.

    Then real question is have you gone to far? Is the grind to much and to stupid that people final said no. I will not just give you money for a artificial grind that you created. That what scared me about the pattern Trubine has been doing. Is that they would just increase the grind and lower drop rates in efforts to sale more store items. The game stop becoming about having fun and started to become just a number.

    I do not mind paying for good content, but we keep paying for fluff and that is bad road to travel. The company started to become addicted to profits that seem easy and the game gets further and further away from what it should be. The numbers at first will look great, but slow and sure this route will take more and more customers away. I use to love this game and now I really just waiting for something to take it place. To me everything you bring out is just another way to nickel and dime use to death. I have no problem with you making money, but have big problem when this become more important then the game being "FUN". To me you do not care about players having fun, in fact you rather make the grind "SUCK" just to sale more items. Thanks but no thanks.
    Last edited by dragonofsteel2; 11-19-2013 at 11:39 AM.

  6. #126
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meckmaster View Post
    What's being said now
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    - It wasn't our expectation that you play each Epic quest once on Hard and you're done.


    Quote Originally Posted by meckmaster View Post
    What was said before U20 going live
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Running on Epic Hard can earn you a heart for free on each Epic Reincarnation cycle.
    Really, what more needs to be said?
    +1
    Last edited by danotmano1998; 11-19-2013 at 11:37 AM.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  7. #127
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seikojin View Post
    I really would compare what it was like grinding old epics to get a heroic heart. Is it the same time sink as it was back then? Before CITW and later? Because as they add more epic content, the quest diversity will increase, and the comms you get will increase as well.
    At least there was other stuff to do at cap back then to break up the monotony. Hox, vod, shroud, tod, eadq, evon, even reavers fate.

    edit: echrono
    Last edited by Lonnbeimnech; 11-19-2013 at 11:38 AM.

  8. #128
    Founder Kylstrem's Avatar
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    I'm afraid that our complaining that we can level to 28 too fast to gain the necessary commendations is going to have the unintended consequence of the devs saying:
    "They get HOW MUCH XP from Wiz King and VON3?!?!?!!" and then those will then generate the same amount of XP as from those god-awful druid quests.

  9. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    - We do assume playing quests at or close to character level, which determines both the XP and the Commendations earned.
    Playing quests at or close to character level does not determine the XP you get at epic levels. You can run something like quest level 21 on normal while being level 25 with no penalty.

    A datapoint to consider is my current life, who hit level 20 and then waited for U20 before running any epics based on the stated design goal that running EH (not necessarily one and done, but in general) should get you in the ballpark of a free heart by the time you reach 28.

    I specifically planned to farm at least 4.32 million xp in off-destinies this life before TRing. (Four untouched destinies to tier 4.) Given the stated design goal and how much off-destiny xp I will get regardless, it seems a natural fit that I'd do an epic TR this life, right?

    I have zero intention of doing an epic reincarnation. As soon as I get that fourth off-destiny to tier 4 I will happily heroic TR without giving epic reincarnation a moment's consideration because the comm rate is just too out of whack. It's not worth it.

    I'm not angry or bitter about this; I prefer heroic TR to epic runs anyway so it's all good. Just letting you know that as a player who is in a situation you'd think would be the perfect candidate for epic reincarnation, due to the way it's designed I won't even consider it. And I would really, really like the 3% doublestrike from the past life, too. But it gets zero consideration from me.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Come on, just own up to it. The plan was to make the grind so ridiculous people would buy their hearts in the store.
    Telling the truth gets people fired. Besides, there are a lot more gullible people in the world than there are intelligent and discerning. Turbine will continue to make money off the former while the latter gnash our teeth in consternation.

    I have already read threads about people buying their hearts... It IS working...

  11. #131
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    Having done a week of grinding on several toons and something like 300 to show for it.
    See this kind of feedback is worthless, because it's obviously not true... I got 45 comms in about an hour doing 3 low-level epic hard quests.

    So my normal casual play of an hour a night for a week will generate 300 comms. And that's in the low-level epic quests... The level 25-28 epic quests drop more than that right?

    You can't tell me you GRINDED for a week, and only have 300 comms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    To clarify some of our assumptions:

    - It wasn't our expectation that you play each Epic quest once on Hard and you're done. There's perhaps been some confusion on this point. The goal was matching up Commendations to the XP from all quests at each Epic level.
    Maybe not, but that represents a totally even distribution of epic quests, so it's a reasonable "average" leveling plan. Not the most efficient, but not the least efficient either. A general approach that many will take nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    - We do assume playing quests at or close to character level, which determines both the XP and the Commendations earned.
    And this is where you went off the rails. Why would you assume that? Are you still clinging to the notion that levels would matter? During heroic levels, every level gives you power. During epics, the active ED gives power. The actual levels affect power very little, other than reaching minimum levels for higher level items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    - Because higher level quests aggressively scale up in Commendations rewarded, it is expected that you would not earn half your Commendations by the time you earn half your XP from 20->28. A larger percentage of total Commendations comes from higher level quests. This explicitly aids players already at level cap, as they can run the higher level quests to earn Commendations more efficiently, while it should not adversely affect those who are leveling up by playing Epic Hard quests at their level.
    Higher level quests aggressively scale up in difficulty and length, not so much on the exp part. Being forced to do those, not my vision of fun. Option to play them, sure. Forced to, no thanks.

    There's also the fact, that there are way less high level quests, so leveling just by them would get extremely boring. Not to mention the "a big pile of monsters appear" -mechanic in them which I personally dislike deeply.

    Of the two options you present, I'm still selecting the highway. Your way isn't fun.

  13. #133
    Community Member Wizzly_Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Playing quests at or close to character level does not determine the XP you get at epic levels. You can run something like quest level 21 on normal while being level 25 with no penalty.

    A datapoint to consider is my current life, who hit level 20 and then waited for U20 before running any epics based on the stated design goal that running EH (not necessarily one and done, but in general) should get you in the ballpark of a free heart by the time you reach 28.

    I specifically planned to farm at least 4.32 million xp in off-destinies this life before TRing. (Four untouched destinies to tier 4.) Given the stated design goal and how much off-destiny xp I will get regardless, it seems a natural fit that I'd do an epic TR this life, right?

    I have zero intention of doing an epic reincarnation. As soon as I get that fourth off-destiny to tier 4 I will happily heroic TR without giving epic reincarnation a moment's consideration because the comm rate is just too out of whack. It's not worth it.

    I'm not angry or bitter about this; I prefer heroic TR to epic runs anyway so it's all good. Just letting you know that as a player who is in a situation you'd think would be the perfect candidate for epic reincarnation, due to the way it's designed I won't even consider it. And I would really, really like the 3% doublestrike from the past life, too. But it gets zero consideration from me.
    I, too, am unlikely to bother with ETR. I have all 11 destinies maxed, 6M karma in each sphere, and supposedly won an EHoW in the Lammania event; however, I have yet to see it, and I'd rather start a new life and build than sit at cap grinding commendations.

    Also, I already grounded off-destinies once, and have no intention of doing it again.

  14. #134
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    Thanks meckmaster +1

    Pre U20
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Running on Epic Hard can earn you a heart for free on each Epic Reincarnation cycle.
    Post U20
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    - It wasn't our expectation that you play each Epic quest once on Hard and you're done.

  15. #135
    Founder Raiderone's Avatar
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    The commendations need to be BTA. This hurts folks that like to run multiple toons. Too much of a grind otherwise. I don't want to hear we have plans for them.
    Right now I could have 1000 commendations but since BTC...I have maybe 300 on several characters.

  16. #136
    Developer Vargouille's Avatar
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    I apologize for confusion caused by my earlier statements. I can but clarify.

    "Running on Epic Hard can earn you a heart for free on each Epic Reincarnation cycle."

    This is still the intent as far as I meant it. This never meant, "playing each quest on Hard once". Rather, you can play Epic Hard quests rather than Epic Elite quests. The Epic Reincarnation cycle isn't playing each quest once, in my mind. That doesn't guarantee that you will be level 28. Until quite recently I hadn't realized anyone had been interpreting that line to mean "one and done", which is why I'm clarifying.

    Again, I can but apologize for introducing confusion. If there's a need to spend more time carefully crafting fewer posts to reduce confusion, we can try to do that.

  17. #137
    Community Member Qzipoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patang01 View Post
    But a month or 2?

    Nah - it ain't gonna happen.
    Exactly. I have a couple hundred comms spread out on each of my characters but since they are BTC and I need FOUR THOUSAND, I'm not even bothering with it. Add to this the fact that I am already capped, so the whole logic of getting enough comms as I level is completely irrelevant to me... Not a grind I am interested in

    And karma is just hitting us while we're already down. Devs: running an off destiny is NOT the same thing as running an alternate past life:

    If I do a TR for a cleric past life, I can build a proper cleric and play him for 20 levels. If I want to do an epic divine past life, I now have a melee tank with random divine abilities that are useless to him. Unless there is a way for me to change all my heroic levels around, running an off destiny is just not fun. My barbarian doesn't need bars songs, my monk doesn't need bonuses to spell casting, my cleric doesn't need to lay waste. Add to this the fact that I already went through the pain of doing off destinies, it wasn't fun at all and now you want me to do it again!?

    PS: this is the kind of hole you put yourself in by adding epic destinies as a premium feature instead of just making it an enhancement system for proper epic levels, your fault. Imagine how much simpler it would have been if you didn't have bland "epic levels"
    Last edited by Qzipoun; 11-19-2013 at 12:26 PM.

  18. #138
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    I apologize for confusion caused by my earlier statements. I can but clarify.

    "Running on Epic Hard can earn you a heart for free on each Epic Reincarnation cycle."

    This is still the intent as far as I meant it. This never meant, "playing each quest on Hard once". Rather, you can play Epic Hard quests rather than Epic Elite quests. The Epic Reincarnation cycle isn't playing each quest once, in my mind. That doesn't guarantee that you will be level 28. Until quite recently I hadn't realized anyone had been interpreting that line to mean "one and done", which is why I'm clarifying.

    Again, I can but apologize for introducing confusion. If there's a need to spend more time carefully crafting fewer posts to reduce confusion, we can try to do that.
    If you start posting any less, you'll be going into negative posts.

  19. #139
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    I apologize for confusion caused by my earlier statements. I can but clarify.

    "Running on Epic Hard can earn you a heart for free on each Epic Reincarnation cycle."

    This is still the intent as far as I meant it. This never meant, "playing each quest on Hard once". Rather, you can play Epic Hard quests rather than Epic Elite quests. The Epic Reincarnation cycle isn't playing each quest once, in my mind. That doesn't guarantee that you will be level 28. Until quite recently I hadn't realized anyone had been interpreting that line to mean "one and done", which is why I'm clarifying.

    Again, I can but apologize for introducing confusion. If there's a need to spend more time carefully crafting fewer posts to reduce confusion, we can try to do that.
    That doesn't really match with "If you level entirely up on Epic Elite, you'll have your heart before you are level 28".

  20. #140
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    I apologize for confusion caused by my earlier statements. I can but clarify.

    "Running on Epic Hard can earn you a heart for free on each Epic Reincarnation cycle."

    This is still the intent as far as I meant it. This never meant, "playing each quest on Hard once". Rather, you can play Epic Hard quests rather than Epic Elite quests. The Epic Reincarnation cycle isn't playing each quest once, in my mind. That doesn't guarantee that you will be level 28. Until quite recently I hadn't realized anyone had been interpreting that line to mean "one and done", which is why I'm clarifying.

    Again, I can but apologize for introducing confusion. If there's a need to spend more time carefully crafting fewer posts to reduce confusion, we can try to do that.
    What you mean to say is running Epic Hard can earn you a heart for free by sitting at cap for a month

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