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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    assuming you are the kinda player that is knocking these lives out like a nutter try using this list of 20-28 lvl quests to reverse that trend with the next char to do the 20-28 run:
    Yes, plenty of these comments. "Don't play game the way you like, play it like ->THIS<- or suck it".

    I'm choosing the "post in forums hoping for a change" method. If past is any indication of future, I'll fully stop logging on within a week or two, and stop checking forums not long after that.

    I've seen Devs post that 4200 is fine in their opinion, but nobody really posted the reasons why it has to be so hard to acquire. Yes, we all know the lie that is "gain it by getting comms 3/4 of the EH quests on the way 20 to 28", but even after that is proven false, they still stick to their guns.

    When they post "My way or the highway", I'll just use the second option. If I can't play the game to have fun (my next TR projects are stuck at 28), I just don't see the point.

  2. #82
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This sounds plausible. We looked at all Epic Quests with the information we had for how they were really being played, including XP actually earned, and did not focus on the most efficient XP quests (nor did we focus on the least efficient quest, nor the longest quest, nor the prettiest quest, nor the pointiest quest, nor the quests with the longest name).

    We've intentionally aimed at the middle of the road in terms of players. With less than a week "in the wild", we're not prepared to make sweeping changes to these rates nor costs. We are keeping an eye on these things. It may turn out that "one size fits all" ends up feeling uncomfortable, and we may re-examine what we're doing here. At this stage it's not clear that it's perfect, nor that it's so terrible as to need imminent changes.
    Varg, the main problem with the commendation payout is the same problem you had with sagas being the delivery mechanic: The system forces players into Wheloon and Storm Horns. The payouts are skewed so that the Old Epic Eberron content, 33 of the 69 Epic quests are level 22 and below and don't pay out jack. With the exception of Gianthold, all eberron content is not "worth running" for CoVs because none of them are above level 22 (again, excluding the 10 level 24 Gianthold quests). If your balance is that the low end gives too little and the high end gives too much, there's a bias towards the high end. Right?

    My main character these days is my TR junkie, Completionist-to-be. Since storage space is limited, and she primarily TRs habitually, she is not geared well for epic content. Again, because of the semi-rapid rates of TRing, she'd play epic levels until she'd max out a destiny and then TR again. I am not sure which statement you mean: "We aimed for the middle of the road", or "Running Elite quests you'll get your heart before hitting 28." Basing your pay-outs with the assumption of elite is disasterous for characters that are not geared for elite and have fresh destinies.

    But why is forcing people into Wheloon and Stormhorns bad?

    I, and several others, have repeatedly said that the Purple Haze effect is migraine-inducing. I can't speak for the others, but in my case I am not using hyperbole and metaphor to illustrate my distaste for the area. I am frankly, accurately, and precisely telling you that this area of your game makes me physically ill. Serious. I get migraines from it.

    But what about Storm Horns?


    The f'd up scaling means Mabar-riffic lag. They spawn. You lag. You die. The rogue used a cake to get back up in this picture and we slowly whittled them down. We got to the end fight, and decided that we had enough when it happened again. This was just 6 players in Heroic Elite. That char has gear for that level.... Doing this on EE? NO. Not gunna happen.
    Submit a bug report? I have. back in beta. I was in a group that played through the adventures with Squeak and then the whole party was talking about the scaling being insane. She said she'd pass it on. nothing ever came of it.

    Look, I already bought the content. I'm not happy about it. But hey, buyer's remorse. I'm not whining at you guys to give me back my money or to fix this shipped and forgotten broken piece of software. But please, stop trying to force me into playing those horrible packs. mm'Kay?



    EDIT: BTW, After doing the GH heroic saga, Alhisa and Umbathri (Yes, I realize I blacked out their names in the party, but forgot they were standing in frame) wanted to try the other 2 heroic sagas for the guild renown. Both kind of anticipating CoVs quashing the guild renown in epic levels. I was at 3.89million when U20 hit, suddenly able to take level 20. Not being able to bank Epic XP anymore made me feel forced to take the level and continue running Heroic content with my friends while they caught up. After completing the 2 sagas, (yes, I tried to give wheloon another chance and it did give me a migraine. My friends let me pike completions), I was already 2/3rdish the way into 22. I've done EH VoN3 twice. EH Lords of Dust. EH King's Forest. EE Sschindylryn. EE DDtW. EE Trial by Fury. EH The Prisoner. Kings Forest messages and Sschindylryn missives. I nabbed 6 journals in the demon web as I jumped off to get to Trial. I'm less than 100k from level 24.

    I have 386 Commendations.

    I'm not going to bother even attempting to get to 4200 in this life, or the next, so I can get my +1 weapon enhancement or +2 AC... Free VIP heart, in 5 or so lives if I have enough, maybe if I'm bored enough. But, as it stands, I'm not pursuing the new system at all. This will skew your data, I'm sure.
    Last edited by Systern; 11-19-2013 at 04:13 AM.

  3. #83
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    Its now been almost a week since update 20, and I just barely got over 1,000 CoV's tonight. i have ran a variety of different quests and have gotten anywhere from 8 CoV's to 45 CoV's per quest...

    there have been 3 quests that did not award any CoV's even though i met all the requirements of obtaining the CoV's.

    the first quest that didn't award any cov's was EE house of rusted blades. it had been about 3 weeks since i had previously ran house of rusted blades, had no ransack penalty whatsoever, yet no CoV's on the reward list. (the next day i ran house of rusted blades on EH and had CoV's on the reward list)

    the second quest I ran that didn't award any CoV's was EE BoB... again it had been about a week since my previous run of BoB. I had no ransack penalty, and yet there were no CoV's on the reward list...

    the third quest that awarded no CoV's was EE trial by fire. it was the first time i had ran trial by fire on any epic difficulty, and the first time i had ran it at all since i was level 15 running it on HE. I had the +80% first time bonus, and the elite bravery bonus applied to the quest... i expected to get 45 CoV's for the quest, yet there were none on the reward list.

    every other epic quest i have completed since update 20 have all awarded CoV's

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post
    Yes, plenty of these comments. "Don't play game the way you like, play it like ->THIS<- or suck it".

    I'm choosing the "post in forums hoping for a change" method. If past is any indication of future, I'll fully stop logging on within a week or two, and stop checking forums not long after that.

    I've seen Devs post that 4200 is fine in their opinion, but nobody really posted the reasons why it has to be so hard to acquire. Yes, we all know the lie that is "gain it by getting comms 3/4 of the EH quests on the way 20 to 28", but even after that is proven false, they still stick to their guns.

    When they post "My way or the highway", I'll just use the second option. If I can't play the game to have fun (my next TR projects are stuck at 28), I just don't see the point.
    it has nothing to do with playing my way. right now the devs have stated they expect us to earn a free heart on the trip from 20-28. almost all indications are pointing to this just plain not working. i'm trying to find out why. i'm not a hard core player that knocks out lives in my sleep, so if i were to test this myself it would take months. what i am noticing however is there seems to be a discrepancy between what the players are doing and what the devs expected the players would do.

    allow me to drop some dev quotes again to illustrate this point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by raznorw
    They expect you to be able to earn one, for free, on the journey from 20-28 if you mostly run different quests or each quest only once per day. And since you need to be 28 to Epic / Iconic Tr, that seems pretty fair and reasonable.
    Yes, that's the thinking behind these numbers. Running on Epic Hard can earn you a heart for free on each Epic Reincarnation cycle. If you level entirely up on Epic Elite, you'll have your heart before you are level 28.
    pair that with (added bold on the really interesting bit):

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    • More Commendations show up for higher level quests.
    • More Commendations show up for harder difficulties (Normal, Hard, Elite).
    • For an example, we currently expect a level 26 Epic Hard quest to include 30 Commendations of Valor in the end reward list. The same quest on Normal would reward 18 Commendations, and on Elite it would reward 44 Commendations.
    • Our current plan is that Iconic and Epic Hearts of Wood each require 4200 Commendations of Valor. This is close to our estimate of how many Commendations of Valor you would get from playing Epic Hard, non-ransacked quests and usually taking Commendations as the end reward, based on how many quests characters would finish between levels 20-28 (again, on Epic Hard).
    so my theory is the devs expected us to spend a lot more time doing the higher level quests than we actually do. right now a large chunk of our trip to 28 involves doing VON3 each day. that fails to match the "higher lvl quests = more comms" design so our habits are leaking potential comm rewards like a metal bucket trying to contain acid.

    i'm not harping on about being holier than thou. i like my VON3 runs too. i'm just trying to find out if anyone has actually spent a significant portion of their trip to lvl28 doing quests that match their level. i suspect if someone has then they will have raked in a lot more comms than we are currently seeing reports of.

    so, before we shout at the devs for not delivering what they promised can we at least see if the system is working how they probably intended? then at least we know what we're asking for when it comes to addressing the balance.

    and no i don't think the balance is right at the moment even with a focus on higher level epics, there is just too large a gap between reality and expectation. but lets get that test done then we can show them the numbers their way compared to the numbers done our prefered way. the devs often say they like seeing numbers put to good use. so lets prevent them from being able to just dismiss our numbers by gathering some that match their design.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah179 View Post
    With practice, EE Rusted Blades is the easiest...he is push over as long as you only have to fight him. You just need a dim-door, either a character with you that has it or being in ShadowDancer for the quest will work.
    Seems there is one hireling also? Thought I saw that once... can not remember.

    EE Impossible Demands is not as easy - but it is very fast. If you learned these two quests, you could get 65 comms in 15-20min each day, ship buffs to running out to quests etc. If you add to that any 3-5 quests you like/want to do... it should be easy to get 100 comms a day and Epic TR in 40 days.
    Thanks. I HAVE run EH Demands solo, for a while I found it fun to try and get that 2nd chest, but after a while it just got too annoying (wizzy with not enough sneak to hide when surprised by the priestess). Obviously that took rather longer than 1 minute, I'll have to try and find out how to do that -even the bit till the end of the first fight takes longer than that for me, and if there's a way to actually kill her in that fight I haven't found it yet. I'm totally unfamiliar with Rusted Blades, have followed a zerger once or twice who was farming a specific quest, but that's not enough to give me a feel for the quest.

    For the devs: I totally forgot to mention that all my toons have greater tomes of epic learning. I pre-ordered motu, and upgraded all lesser books a a few months ago when it was on sale -something I now sorely regret since the bonus xp is prettty useless without bonus comms. It saves time running in off destinies, but those I expect to cap well before the end of the year.
    Obviously, I'm not going to buy any xp pots anytime soon, and *definitely* no epic otto's boxes. What would be the point?

    If Turbine can work out some more things to do "once we got there" they might actually improve the overall game before it is too late.
    This. Above all, this. One big reason I'm not too fussed about maxing comms/run is that I don't enjoy running somewhere for no other reason than bening able to turn right around and start running *again*. I want to have some fun at the destination point first. And no, hanging out at cap with nothing special to do while farming those last comms is NOT "having fun at the destination point".

    What this game needs imnsvho is some level >30 raids that are both challenging and fun (shroud, not citw) with loot that can be passed to lower toons so people can make funky builds that are still viable (tomes are good for that), and stuff that makes a toon unique, both power-wise (let's call it bluesteel items, ML20) and cosmetic (like a room at the end where you can design or at least re-colour cosmetic armor and pets). Stuff that makes people want to run an extremely difficult quest over and over and over again.

    Dreaming modus on: have a quest where you find the blueprints for a spelljammer vessel, and related quests to gather materials to build said vessel (flagging quests). Then a series of quests in various exotic locations as you travel around in your vessel (and can gather ingredients), untill you feel ready to embark on a truely daunting mission (the raid). /dreaming
    (and yea an Eberron style flying vessel would work as well but hey I like spelljammer )

    Greetz,
    Red Orm

  6. #86
    Community Member deahamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedOrm View Post
    This. Above all, this. One big reason I'm not too fussed about maxing comms/run is that I don't enjoy running somewhere for no other reason than bening able to turn right around and start running *again*. I want to have some fun at the destination point first. And no, hanging out at cap with nothing special to do while farming those last comms is NOT "having fun at the destination point".
    This is the thing, the rub, the issue. Such a high cost... for what?!?!

    The first time I ever considered and made a TR plan for a toon was to be able to do better in X raid or X epic. Or to simply be good enough for this or that.

    But...
    1. There is nothing of that level of challenge and fun. EE quests are just not living up to what Epic Sands and Epic Raids used to be.
    2. DCs were a big deal. Desiring PLs for DCs was a huge thing.. made a huge difference... DCs are now a pointless exercise in anything pretending to be "endgame".
    3. I remember bosses that were hard to bypass AC on if you were a bit spread thin... any interesting build would actually want +3 to hit and other bonuses from melee or ranger PLs. The changes to AC wiped that.

    What are you to farm ETRs for unless you are just the type that wants completionists and to do it all? That motivation does not work for all or even most. Some people only went through the TR machine because it had a point... making their "endgame" toon better, achieving better results in "endgame".

    The other thing was that they gave us crazy OP boosts with some of the Epic Destinies (no offence, some EDs are just UGH blechs oh why)... which made the PLs less desirable. Point 2 and 3 also contributed to that. ETRs are certainly, in my eyes, FAR LESS interesting or amazing than heroic PL feats (passive and active). And all rather pointless UNLESS you are the type to just enjoy TRing for the sake of having done all of it (aka completionist for the sake of title and pride)
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    so my theory is the devs expected us to spend a lot more time doing the higher level quests than we actually do. right now a large chunk of our trip to 28 involves doing VON3 each day. that fails to match the "higher lvl quests = more comms" design so our habits are leaking potential comm rewards like a metal bucket trying to contain acid.
    I think that's the problem. I'm currently xp capped, but sticking to level 26 so I can solo the quests I'm familiar with rather than embarras myself in a pug or inch myself solo through an unfamiliar quest. Once I've capped all destinies and can be in shiradi with impunity I'll also take those last 2 levels and start looking at higher level quests. Which means for now I'm limited to Eberron quests.
    As I happen to already know Demands, I will definitely try to figure out how to run that one in just a few minutes, but it sure isn't one of the high-level quests the devs seem to expect. Rusted blades... If I can find somebody to teach me, it will get added to the list, but again, it looks like the devs would expet me to run other quests. But while I'm sufficiently familiar with Breaking the Ice (level 27) that I could pug it, I can't solo it, and it certainly isn't short enough that I wouldn't mind running it for 40 days (or even 20 days) to get the required comms.

    Oh, Wheloon: it does not make me ill (I DO find it ugly as hell), but it does completely crash my suspension of disbelief: from the way prisoners appearantly simply walk up a ramp voluntairily (as in, 10-15 foot behind a single PDK) where they will be thrown down 30 feet onto a cobbled street to the whole premise of a goverment walling off half a town to be used as a prison *with the original inhabitants still inside* ?!! Sure the shadar-kai are bad news, but is that really the sort of goverment I want to side with?? If this was a real DND campaign I'd be rallying a revolt 5 minutes after finding out. As that's not an option in DDO, I just avoid the whole place like the plague.

    Greetz,
    Red Orm

  8. #88
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This sounds plausible. We looked at all Epic Quests with the information we had for how they were really being played, including XP actually earned, and did not focus on the most efficient XP quests (nor did we focus on the least efficient quest, nor the longest quest, nor the prettiest quest, nor the pointiest quest, nor the quests with the longest name).

    We've intentionally aimed at the middle of the road in terms of players. With less than a week "in the wild", we're not prepared to make sweeping changes to these rates nor costs. We are keeping an eye on these things. It may turn out that "one size fits all" ends up feeling uncomfortable, and we may re-examine what we're doing here. At this stage it's not clear that it's perfect, nor that it's so terrible as to need imminent changes.
    Just going to point out that since the update, I've leveled from 22-25, doing Epic Elites, getting all the "journals" in King's Forest, most of them in the Demonweb, the few slayer/explorer/rare counts that come naturally in the four MotU explorer zones getting to and from quests, and a couple of challenges, (again, mostly EE quests) and have just about 400 CoV. In other words, I've earned about 1/3 of the XP needed to get to 28, but only around 15% of the CoVs needed to ETR. I do not have an XP tome running, and the only XP potion I've used was a Greater in EE VoN 3 and 4 and some other moderate XP quest after those two.

    Your numbers need serious reworking.

    [EDIT] Just checked...I don't have even 500 CoV.
    Last edited by sephiroth1084; 11-19-2013 at 08:17 AM.
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  9. #89
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    I was really heartened in particular by this when posted ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post

    To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

    ~E

    Having to run a limited set of quests in a particular lvl range and come up with set formula to achieve enough comms to avoid buying overpriced hearts in store certainly doesn't feel to me like any sort of Paradigm Shift at all. Rather more power through pain ( or Power through Purchase ).

    I do think that turbine seem to be listening to the player base recently on some subjects, hopefully if enough people comment this will get changed or tweaked a bit.
    Last edited by KahaNZL; 11-19-2013 at 06:08 AM.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We've intentionally aimed at the middle of the road in terms of players. With less than a week "in the wild", we're not prepared to make sweeping changes to these rates nor costs. We are keeping an eye on these things. It may turn out that "one size fits all" ends up feeling uncomfortable, and we may re-examine what we're doing here. At this stage it's not clear that it's perfect, nor that it's so terrible as to need imminent changes.
    Keep in mind that there are currently only a few (if any) players who have enough Commendations to get an Epic Heart. This means, there are not many players who have spent this huge amount of Commendations already. If you reduce the price significantly, this will not create positive feelings amongst those who already turned in a heart, similar to buying a real life item just a week before it went to sale.
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  11. #91
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    They should have just left the CoV ALSO in the Sagas Rewards.

    For example:

    1 Saga made of 3 quests. The reward is a sum of all the CoV that you got from each quest.

    Each quest gives 60 comms on EE, 45 on EH, 30 on EN.

    True Elite Saga reward will now also give a choice of another 180 CoV.
    Epic Hard saga reward will now give a choice of another 135 CoV
    Epic Normal saga reward will now give a choice of another 90 CoV.

    It's really simple.
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  12. #92
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    I understand not putting CoVs in end chest like fragments, because people will just farm while multi-boxing. But why not put them just auto-granted with quest completions directly tied to XP so that if you drink a pot you are actually getting progress to your TR? Also maybe scale these with bonuses for doing in groups since most have gone to solo games and help rekindle the spirit of the MMO?

    Overall this new currency was rushed in, and since no feedback from playerbase in Lamania was constructively taken, its no wonder this has no been well-received. Like I mentioned in another thread, 2nd life ETR will be worse than the 1st since the ransack mechanics affect CoV end rewards.

    Be prepared for more frustrated players to leave the game, if change is not made. And definitely be prepared to not sell XP-boosting items...although you might sell your hearts as a result. Someone should fire your marketing department.

  13. #93
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    I agree with most of the other posters here that 4200 is way too high, seems unachievable or not worth the grind.
    This number needs to cut in half at a minimum, maybe even more.
    I have been grinding for several days now, with well over 20+ hours of play this past weekend alone and I have just over 1k comms.
    I could have earned enough Tokens to heroic TR 20 times, but I am not even 1/4 of the way to an epic or iconic TR...

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    Seems to me the biggest problem with the comms is that they are purely quest level based compared to XP which is based on other things than quest level. Why not hand out comms based on quest XP with a malus attached for EH and EN.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Not really as long as the Hearts are available from the store. Call it the blue whale package, stone+pots+heart every three days until the CC gets maxed out.

    This very much. I really don't mind spending some time in the sphere I want to TR in. But when it's all my time, the game loses a lot of appeal to play at all. I mean, who cares how powerful a character one can get in a game that is never much fun to play?
    I agree they should drop this to 2, or 3, or 4 million karma... We shouldn't have to spend an entire life in an ED we hate.

    But, you can also meta-game it a bit, if you already had 6 million karma in 2 or 3 spheres when Update 20 hit (most powergamers fall into this category). You can easily cycle between different spheres, running daily easy comm/xp quests in your worst ED, and running difficult quests/guild group quests in your favorite ED.

    But this won't work for people who didn't already have 2 or 3 spheres maxed out to begin with, so I do think they should change the karma requirements to say, 3 million.
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandir View Post
    Seems to me the biggest problem with the comms is that they are purely quest level based compared to XP which is based on other things than quest level. Why not hand out comms based on quest XP with a malus attached for EH and EN.
    Biggest problem with exp and comms is that the devs want to use a formula for everything. Every quest is unique in this game. They should have a database with static values for exp and comms, depending on difficulty and length of quest. That method also makes it very easy to change such values, without having to recompile code
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    But what about Storm Horns?
    http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6240/2yjx.png

    The f'd up scaling means Mabar-riffic lag. They spawn. You lag. You die.
    That insane double scaling of EE is one of the reasons why I don't play EE. Not only you turn the mobs from "powerful orcs" to "Gruumsh avatars that would destroy Amrath twice in their sleep", but you also spawn dozens of such avatars.

    Compare what Elite mobs are on Amrath, Cannith, and Stormhorns. The newer the content, the more powerful the mobs of the same-level quests are. Heck, it is actually very visible on the Lordsmarch chains, compared to older level 12-13 chain, like sands and GH.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  18. #98
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    thanks.

    so it looks like you got the bulk of your exp from the lower lvl epics. the devs said the comm rewards would scale by quest level, so even though you did a ton of EE there was very little in the way of 24-26 lvl epics where the bulk of the comms should be hiding.
    Which is ******** since do to the stupid Karma farming we're stuck in off-destinies most of the time. High level epics in Sentinel . . . LOLz . . .

    EE WGU only gave 45 last night. Another big bucket of meh . . .

  19. #99
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    They should have just left the CoV ALSO in the Sagas Rewards.

    For example:

    1 Saga made of 3 quests. The reward is a sum of all the CoV that you got from each quest.

    Each quest gives 60 comms on EE, 45 on EH, 30 on EN.

    True Elite Saga reward will now also give a choice of another 180 CoV.
    Epic Hard saga reward will now give a choice of another 135 CoV
    Epic Normal saga reward will now give a choice of another 90 CoV.

    It's really simple.
    ^^ This.

    Saga rewards are a bonus to doing what we are already doing, Questing. CoV should be in Saga reward lists in addition to End Rewards.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  20. #100
    Community Member TPICKRELL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This sounds plausible. We looked at all Epic Quests with the information we had for how they were really being played, including XP actually earned, and did not focus on the most efficient XP quests (nor did we focus on the least efficient quest, nor the longest quest, nor the prettiest quest, nor the pointiest quest, nor the quests with the longest name).

    We've intentionally aimed at the middle of the road in terms of players. With less than a week "in the wild", we're not prepared to make sweeping changes to these rates nor costs. We are keeping an eye on these things. It may turn out that "one size fits all" ends up feeling uncomfortable, and we may re-examine what we're doing here. At this stage it's not clear that it's perfect, nor that it's so terrible as to need imminent changes.
    A couple of thoughts on this.

    The Good: This system encourages stretching what you run at a given level. So for example, this life my wife and I are duoing a few easy epic elites starting at level 21. We also started running EH level 24 quests at level 21. We've dropped EVON3 from our regular quests, because every run widens the gap between xp and comms to much to make up later. We didn't drop Impossible Demands and Rusted Blades, even though they are way more XP efficient than CoV efficient, they are still have the best CoV return per minute.


    The Bad:

    We are zerging more and more. We used to break everything, or at least everything that is convenient for the extra xp. We used to do optionals for the xp and loot and to add some variety. We almost never did invis run throughs. Now we are doing more and more of all of that. Why? Once you do all the quests once and repeat all the efficient quests a few times on a given life, you naturally start wanting this cycle to end, so you start looking for efficiency. We've never worried about finishing most quests a few minutes faster before, but the comm grind is pretty painful, and we just want it to end so we can start the next cycle. Running in place detracts from the entertainment value of the game.

    Reknown production is down, so we feel forced to run Sagas and take reknown unless a perfect stat tome is available. I don't like some of the quests in the sagas, so for me each repeat of a saga feels like a forced grind. I don't object to one completion per ER cycle, but doing them continuously is painful.

    XP is no longer important. Unless you buy every other heart or so, CoV's are the limiting factor by a wide margin. I did spreadsheets to figure out the progress rates early on, and realized that we would need to stretch up to EH level 24 quests and EE level 21/22 quest as soon as possible. Even armed with this knowledge CoV production is lagging behind XP production. I'm currently sitting at 2.85 Million XP(43% complete) and 1156 CoV's (27%). And I've slowed the leveling process down considerably to keep the ratios this close. Grinding inefficiently is unpleasant grinding, as is grinding for CoV's while capped in Karma, Destiny XP and holding level 28. I bought the first epic heart to avoid grinding the CoV's for weeks while accomplishing almost nothing else.

    Trivializing XP reduces the value of XP Pots, Epic XP Tomes, VIP XP Bonuses, Epic Ottos Boxes, XP boost bonus days, Saga XP Tokens, Wildernesses, Challenges, optionals, in quest bonuses like ransack...

    Suggestions:

    1: Reduce the gap, by some combination of reducing the CoV's per heart or increasing the sources/supply of CoV's. I've selected quests and traded off a lot of leveling efficiency and CoV production is still trailing by a large margin. I don't think more sacrifices should be required to keep CoV's inline with XP. Especially if you are going to add more uses for CoV's and thus effectively increase the grind.

    The target needs to be lowered by roughly 1200 CoV's (or the production increased by 1200 CoV's over the course of leveling from 21-28) to make this reasonable.

    2: Include CoV's in Epic Ottos. They are a Turbine Point trap without them and will lead to unhappy customers and lower sales.

    3: Allow us to accrue karma above that which is needed to perform an EPIC TR. At level 28 cap, 6 Million karma is too much, it may be about right for level cap 30, but that's a year away. I doubt you want to change this, so at the very least allow us to accumulate extra karma so we can manage when we spend time in off destinies.

    This would also mean that you can at least build up karma while you are capped on everything and just need to farm CoV's. I think it should be uncapped, but at the very least raise the karma ceiling to 9 Million so we can pre-pay for 1/2 of an off destiny ER cycle. Uncapped would be preferable, as it would always give some value to the xp you are earning. If you are sitting at 28 grinding CoV's you would at least be able to pre-pay for some future off-destiny grinding.

    EDIT Additions:

    4: Change CoV drops from once per quest per day to follow the quest ransack pattern. 100% first run, 80% second, 60% third...

    And note that the slower leveling penalty is on top of the built in rather severe penalties from not getting BB bonuses or first time Wildernesses slayer and explorer xp.
    Last edited by TPICKRELL; 11-19-2013 at 10:48 AM. Reason: Additions

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