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  1. #61
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    my 2cents concerning Assassinate in Epic Elite endgame content from a Hardcore perspective.

    ...snip...

    My assassin focus rogue can't melee Red Names or trash in EE, it dies instantly getting aggro.
    While I am waiting for the assassination DC to crank from sneaking, a Sharadi Caster will have most of the targets 3/4ths dead or a Legendary Dreadnaught would have trashed everything in sight before I get close.

    Conclusion:
    Assassin Focus rogues with Maxed out Shadow Dancer are not the metas or even come close for epic elite endgame content.
    They're like 3 legged dogs in a 4x4 relay race slowing the party down.
    It sounds like you need to work on your rogue's survivability. If you die instantly from pulling agro, work on not pulling agro, improve your damage avoidance and/or mitigation, and get moar hp. Rogues are incredibly survivable when built and played well. If you already have all of these, then it might simply not be the playstyle for you.

    And BrianTheHun is right, rogues are awesome in EE. I personally find EE quests go much more smoothly and quickly when I'm on my rogue because I can instakill 1/2 of the mobs throughout the dungeon instead of the whole group taking severals seconds to kill each individual mob.
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  2. #62
    Community Member Lufia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    That's because your character is gimped as you pointed out, not the class

    Going pure is not a sacrifice
    Wrong again, the character is gimped BECAUSE of the class. it needs love and lots of it. being a one trick pony doesn't cut it in epic elite past lvl 25 EE content.

    Going pure is not the issue, making assassinate viable is as it stands it needs tons of love and perhaps a rework in its mechanics.


    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    It sounds like you need to work on your rogue's survivability.
    I have displacement clickies, pop uncanny dodge before an engagement and use radiance blinding weapons, invis guard. It can't be much better than that.

    Also I failed to mention this is based off my impressions the Storm Horns Epic Elite/High Road/Druids Deep/Wheloon Where playing assassination on key mobs is difficult especially the shadar kai assassins because they move too fast. or you get hit from random cleaves which breaks you out of sneak.

    also Its a 25base drow 20 int assassin 14 dex rest con. Top DC for (68 i think before i LR'd) assassination sacrifices too much for being a 1 trick pony.

    Honestly Assassination should something like 20+1per rogue level+2/3rds dex modifier+2/3rds int modifier. then all DC woes sacrificing everything would be solved.

    perhaps you have a well rounded assassin? Then your experiences will be much different as mine in Epic Elite lvl 25 and up.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianTheHun View Post
    but I can get all Epic Elite traps, instakill most trash, and be self-sufficient. Play better.
    yes.
    18wiz/2rg though.
    AoE Damage
    3Stack Dots for reds (Kiting while DPS'ing)
    Finger of Death
    Phantasmal Killer (Illusionist gloves rofl stomping)
    Circle of Death
    Wail of the Banshee
    Power word kill
    Power word Stun
    Crowd Control
    Epic Elite Trapper
    and LAST of all...
    ***Sharadi God DPS mode.****
    _______________________________
    VS 20 rouge
    Assassinationx2(inactive in combat because of charging assassinate DC)
    Epic Elite Trapper
    Consume
    Executioner's Strike/shot
    35% incoperality
    Few seconds of 100% Dodge and some other minor benefits from Shadow Dancer?
    ....Profit?

    Now what happens if we miss an a assassinate on a CR 59 Orc?


    anyways I am getting sidetracked.
    Conclusion:
    There is a MAJOR inbalance between classes.
    Assassination needs to be re-tweaked to be viable at 25+ epic elite content.
    Last edited by Lufia; 01-04-2014 at 10:08 PM.
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  3. #63
    Community Member BrianTheHun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    perhaps you have a well rounded assassin? Then your experiences will be much different as mine in Epic Elite lvl 25 and up.


    yes.
    18wiz/2rg though.
    AoE Damage
    3Stack Dots for reds (Kiting while DPS'ing)
    Finger of Death
    Phantasmal Killer (Illusionist gloves rofl stomping)
    Circle of Death
    Wail of the Banshee
    Power word kill
    Power word Stun
    Crowd Control
    Epic Elite Trapper
    and LAST of all...
    ***Sharadi God DPS mode.****
    _______________________________
    VS 20 rouge
    Assassinationx2(inactive in combat because of charging assassinate DC)
    Epic Elite Trapper
    Consume
    Executioner's Strike/shot
    35% incoperality
    Few seconds of 100% Dodge and some other minor benefits from Shadow Dancer?
    ....Profit?

    Now what happens if we miss an a assassinate on a CR 59 Orc?


    anyways I am getting sidetracked.
    Conclusion:
    There is a MAJOR inbalance between classes.
    Assassination needs to be re-tweaked to be viable at 25+ epic elite content.
    I mean play better as in play your rogue better. Yes, there are differences between the 2 classes, but you make it sound as if you couldn't get EE traps, instakill, or be self-sufficient as a rogue, until you TR'd as a wizard. Shiradi is easy mode, it doesn't imply that YOU are skilled. Do all of those uber spells land the first try every time, without enervation or level drain?

    If I miss an assassinate, I'll kill that CR 59 Orc the old-fashioned way, dps. Just because you couldn't survive aggro with your rogue, doesn't mean no one else can, either.

    I agree there are major balance issues between classes, mainly with monks and monk splashes. But you're still wrong about rogues not being viable in EE content. They are.
    Jackknife / Nerft Powers / Born Again Pagan / Threechords / Midnyght Rambler
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  4. #64
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    Also I failed to mention this is based off my impressions the Storm Horns Epic Elite/High Road/Druids Deep/Wheloon Where playing assassination on key mobs is difficult especially the shadar kai assassins because they move too fast. or you get hit from random cleaves which breaks you out of sneak.
    I've played all that content on EE and never had a problem. I actually found the shadar kai assassins rather easy to assassinate, they stand still plenty, it's all about timing. My assassin does quite well in level 25+ EE content. So the class is obviously capable of handling this content, which means the difficulty you experienced was either with your specific build, your playstyle, or a combination of the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    also Its a 25base drow 20 int assassin 14 dex rest con. Top DC for (68 i think before i LR'd) assassination sacrifices too much for being a 1 trick pony.
    I can reach a 69DC on the assassin in my sig and sacrifice very little to get it. Check it out if you want to see how it can be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    yes.
    18wiz/2rg though.
    AoE Damage
    3Stack Dots for reds (Kiting while DPS'ing)
    Finger of Death
    Phantasmal Killer (Illusionist gloves rofl stomping)
    Circle of Death
    Wail of the Banshee
    Power word kill
    Power word Stun
    Crowd Control
    Epic Elite Trapper
    and LAST of all...
    ***Sharadi God DPS mode.****
    _______________________________
    VS 20 rouge
    Assassinationx2(inactive in combat because of charging assassinate DC)
    Epic Elite Trapper
    Consume
    Executioner's Strike/shot
    35% incoperality
    Few seconds of 100% Dodge and some other minor benefits from Shadow Dancer?
    ....Profit?

    Now what happens if we miss an a assassinate on a CR 59 Orc?


    anyways I am getting sidetracked.
    Conclusion:
    There is a MAJOR inbalance between classes.
    Assassination needs to be re-tweaked to be viable at 25+ epic elite content.
    BrianTheHun summed it up pretty well, so I'll just add that maybe it is simply the assassin playstyle that does not suit you. And that's fine, I have no desire to play a shiradi caster. Find what you like and go with it, but don't assume that a class is gimp or broken just because it didn't work for you.
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  5. #65
    Community Member Lufia's Avatar
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    Again my views are from a Hardcore Epic Elite experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianTheHun View Post
    If I miss an assassinate, I'll kill that CR 59 Orc the old-fashioned way, dps. Just because you couldn't survive aggro with your rogue, doesn't mean no one else can, either.
    Now I never said no one else can, but if you miss your hit, you...

    A) Become subpar DPS and blind the mob till you sneak attack it to death which will take a considerable amount of time

    B) Diplomacy the Orc on the Legendary Dreadnaught which is cleaving Lay Wasting everything and is doing 300-7000 Damage per hit

    C) Blind the mob, and try to do a quickie assassinate on another target...but since you missed the first time the odds of popping it successfully doesn't seem that great.

    Extra Credit Answer: But I can get the caster instead Lufia!? Wrong, Pale master would of killed it or would have been dogpiled already.

    +1 point for effort though

    D) Accept the fact that Rogues need IMPROVEMENT and is not a skill issue

    Sure you can survive up front but that doesn't make you an effective melee as the Fighter/Barbarian/Monk/Warpriest/Eldritch Knight next to you

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianTheHun View Post
    I agree there are major balance issues between classes, mainly with monks and monk splashes. But you're still wrong about rogues not being viable in EE content. They are.
    Yes, Class imbalances is what I am trying to pinpoint this. Assassination needs scaling work
    Rogues/Paladins/Even Bards are bottom of the barrel picks for Epic Elite 25+ because of Imbalance. Not because of skill

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianTheHun View Post
    Shiradi is easy mode, it doesn't imply that YOU are skilled. Do all of those uber spells land the first try every time, without enervation or level drain?
    Yes spells Misfire or dont land and the beauty of sharadi
    Acid fog, Firewall/Ice Storm and Magic Missles Shazzamage kicks in While I run around in circles like a little girl while everything melts in my doom AoE and rainbow.


    Perhaps my hardcore Epic Elite experiences have been carried away by pure rogues devastating everything in its Epic elite path and leaving a wondering impression that I was carried by a 20Rouge.

    Perhaps you like the challenge and novelty of rogue yes? Spice and variety they say.

    Now as for your personal indirect attack I will say this.
    While you enjoy the imbalance of a weak class and a challenge because you are a man who enjoys the skill intricacies involved...I will be
    A) Rofl Stomping and even Soloing Epic Elite Content 25+

    B) Carrying groups or adding the the speed of Epic Elite Speed Runs

    C) Fall of Truth Tanking or Kiting Spectral Dragons and Contributing 100% With confidence with Sharadi God Mode.

    D) Realize that I am not a skilled player, and choose easy mode with Cookie Cutter sharadi because I am simply a smarter player.

    But enough about that non-sense.

    Like the OP says. Assassination needs scaling.
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  6. #66
    Community Member Lufia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    so I'll just add that maybe it is simply the assassin playstyle that does not suit you. And that's fine, I have no desire to play a shiradi caster. Find what you like and go with it, but don't assume that a class is gimp or broken just because it didn't work for you.
    Perhaps you're right assassin isn't for me right now.

    However can't deny the imbalances between a Assassin shadow dancer vs a Dreadnaught Melee/ Sharadi Caster/ Or fury shotter.

    Now back to the OP's original proposal. Assassination's Formula needs to be updated and viable. Especially when lvl 30 quests come out.
    Personally I would love to see a: On successful assassination, Bloodlust Melee attack only with a Dagger: 4 second cooldown where you can openly assassinate another target without being in sneak mode till you miss then wait for a 16 second cooldown. By the silver flame I would be reveling in fun.

    Now I took a look at your build, which is pretty good and arguably maxing out what rogue can do.


    still... the class IS weaker/gimped at endgame content along with bards and paladins, Lvl 24 or below? Sure they might be king of the kill.

    Sorry if I am getting sidetracked here I'm not good with articulating my ideas on paper but:
    Assassins need love! I want them to be better so they can keep up with other classes, you pros aren't helping the cause here lol
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  7. #67
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    I have displacement clickies, pop uncanny dodge before an engagement and use radiance blinding weapons, invis guard. It can't be much better than that.
    I would suggest grabbing the Tier 5 shadowdancer ability Shadow Form. It grants 25% incorpreality. Also Greensteel HP items of permantent blur/displace clickes are a huge help

    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    Also I failed to mention this is based off my impressions the Storm Horns Epic Elite/High Road/Druids Deep/Wheloon Where playing assassination on key mobs is difficult especially the shadar kai assassins because they move too fast. or you get hit from random cleaves which breaks you out of sneak..
    As already mentioned, Shadar-kai Assassins are actually the easier targets in those quests while at the same time, being the target that presents the most threat to the party

    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    Accept the fact that Rogues need IMPROVEMENT and is not a skill issue..
    If this were the case, then I would, but its the opposite. Rogues do not need as much improvement as you say. Playing a rogue is all about skill, that is what separates it from other classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    Rogues/Paladins/Even Bards are bottom of the barrel picks for Epic Elite 25+ because of Imbalance. Not because of skill..
    I will say that rogues along with some other classes are at the bottom of the barrel for EE picks. However while some of it may be class imbalances, its more of a quest imbalance. Monkchers only came around as an EASY solution to a problem that presented itself in EE content: That mobs can hit for more that 150. Monkchers are actually really bad DPS until that 10-15 seconds with manyshot/adrenaline/slaying arrow/whatever-the-hell-else-they-use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    Perhaps you like the challenge and novelty of rogue yes? Spice and variety they say.
    Yes. This is what I love about rogues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    B) Carrying groups or adding the the speed of Epic Elite Speed Runs

    C) Fall of Truth Tanking or Kiting Spectral Dragons and Contributing 100% With confidence with Sharadi God Mode..
    With a kill ratio of something like 3/1 versus the whole party, I'm pretty sure that I add to the speed of Epic Elite runs.

    I also have, and regularly do SR tank or kite Dragons

    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    Perhaps you're right assassin isn't for me right now.
    There is nothing wrong with that, certain classes are not for certain people. The whole point of DDO is finding out what you enjoy, they doing that

    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    Now back to the OP's original proposal. Assassination's Formula needs to be updated and viable. Especially when lvl 30 quests come out.
    Personally I would love to see a: On successful assassination, Bloodlust Melee attack only with a Dagger: 4 second cooldown where you can openly assassinate another target without being in sneak mode till you miss then wait for a 16 second cooldown. By the silver flame I would be reveling in fun.
    As much as I would love an attack like that, people would probably start to say that the rogue is overpowered with an attack like that, such is the nature of DDO. You can never win because there will always be some sort of imbalance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    Sorry if I am getting sidetracked here I'm not good with articulating my ideas on paper but:
    Assassins need love! I want them to be better so they can keep up with other classes, you pros aren't helping the cause here lol
    This may actually be the problem with the class. Some people who love the class, have spent the time gearing/building a proper rogue, have a rogue that would be so overpowered with some updates to the class, while other people need those updates.
    The Shadow Assassin

  8. #68
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia View Post
    Perhaps you're right assassin isn't for me right now.

    However can't deny the imbalances between a Assassin shadow dancer vs a Dreadnaught Melee/ Sharadi Caster/ Or fury shotter.
    Imbalance always has, and always will be, a part of the game. It sounds to me like what you eant is for every class/build to have a roflstomp easybutton playstyle and if it doesn't it is gimp, broken, and incapable of contributing in level 25+ EE content. I for one am grateful that every class/build does not have a roflstomp easybutton because then the game would be far too simple. There are plenty of other games out there that offer this if that is what you're looking for.

    I am also of the opinion that the easy button builds you refer to should not be the standard against which all others are measured because a large variety of classes/builds can contribute a great deal in level 25+ EE content in the hands of a skilled player. Shadow_Jumper is correct, rogues require skill to play well. It's not the class that is the problem. In my "Hardcore Epic Elite experience," as you put it, most of the great endgame players do not play those cookie cutter easy button builds. They play a variety of builds and are solid contributors in level 25+ EE content. There are definitely some great players who play the easybutton builds, but there are a lot more who do not. That is what makes them great players, they don't need an easybutton to complete level 25+ EE content.
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  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    Hitting enemies is not a problem in the current state of the game. Any build with a 30s in their to hit stat will not have problems hitting. Anyone who has built for and played characters in endgame content knows this. So your argument about too low to hit is nonsensical and irrelevant.
    30? I built for and played endgame content and have found out different. So whose argument is nonsensical and irrelevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    I'm still not seeing these "game breaking goodies" you were referring to.
    Seams you see only what you want to see to prove your argument. If assassinate formula wasn't so unforgiving, i'd have a multiclassesed assassin as we speak. Instead, after the enhancement pass, i used LR+20 heart of wood on mine and made something better. And i didn't do it because my assassin wasn't good or i didn't know how to play it. I loved my assassin, loved playing it and it was a beast. I did it because i saw so many much better options, plenty of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    Speak for yourself if you think a pure assassin is a one trick pony. Mine is survivable, self-sufficient, offers party support as needed, has excellent dps, an instakill, self heals, and a playstyle I enjoy. That's a well rounded character, not a one trick pony.
    Survivable? Self-sufficient? Self heals? Jesus... Y your obviously an expert on the topic.
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  10. #70
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    30? I built for and played endgame content and have found out different. So whose argument is nonsensical and irrelevant?
    So then, what have you found? My characters don't have any problems hitting in the hardest content with a 30s in their to hit stat and appropriately geared. By to hit stat I mean a dex in the 30s for a dex based rogure, for example. I don't mean a to hit in the 30s.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    Seams you see only what you want to see to prove your argument. If assassinate formula wasn't so unforgiving, i'd have a multiclassesed assassin as we speak. Instead, after the enhancement pass, i used LR+20 heart of wood on mine and made something better. And i didn't do it because my assassin wasn't good or i didn't know how to play it. I loved my assassin, loved playing it and it was a beast. I did it because i saw so many much better options, plenty of them.

    Survivable? Self-sufficient? Self heals? Jesus... Y your obviously an expert on the topic.
    I don't see any actual counterpoints to my arguments in this response.
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  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    So then, what have you found? My characters don't have any problems hitting in the hardest content with a 30s in their to hit stat and appropriately geared. By to hit stat I mean a dex in the 30s for a dex based rogure, for example. I don't mean a to hit in the 30s.
    Ah k misunderstood.

    Think i already mentioned I was getting mostly grazes on skellies in ee Tor without tenser. Lvl cap was 25, ~30 str, had gh on, twf feats, 1 fighter pl, was using +5 weapons (undead beaters) and had no accuracy item. After casting tenser i did start hitting but it was far from 95%.

    Anyway like i said, it's not that important and can be compensated but it does help a rogue exactely in a situation where they need all the help they can get - read "completely useless".

    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    I don't see any actual counterpoints to my arguments in this response.
    What is there to counter? Your oppinion? Like that ee will and fortitude saves are not important because in a perfect world rogue should never get agro? Think I'll just leave you in your perfect world to enjoy.
    NESALOMLJIVI, Thelanis

  12. #72
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    What is there to counter? Your oppinion? Like that ee will and fortitude saves are not important because in a perfect world rogue should never get agro? Think I'll just leave you in your perfect world to enjoy.
    In a perfect world rogues would not get agro, but as it it they can do a lot to prevent it. Assassinating the Mage is one of the best ways to deal with the low save, and the fact that the have low fort saves helps to. Pale Lavender Ioun Stones are also huge benefits, as well as Jeweled Cloaks
    The Shadow Assassin

  13. #73
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalConcreteSledge View Post
    What is there to counter? Your oppinion? Like that ee will and fortitude saves are not important because in a perfect world rogue should never get agro? Think I'll just leave you in your perfect world to enjoy.
    I was quite detailed about the specific costs and benefits of the splashes you suggested. The costs and benefits are raw facts. It's how those costs and benefits are given value by the individual that is opinion. But you don't seem to want to address any of those costs/benefits. That's fine.

    And I never said that a rogue never gets agro. A rogue is supposed to minimize their agro, which minimizes the value of inflated saves from a 2 pali splash. That's a fact. The opinion is whether or not you feel that the benefits are worth the cost.

    It sounds to me like you were just ready for something different. I can understand that. The enhancement pass brought a lot of new toys to play with. I actually came back to my rogue after the pass because I saw a way to build it more powerfully than it was before, and for me it is. But don't assume the whole class is borked because you saw different opportunities elsewhere. Some of us are still enjoying our rogues.
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