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  1. #1
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    Default Please make assassinate useful at epic levels.

    It is well known fact by now that the rouge assassinate ability is largely useless at epic levels, and rarely works if at all in epic quests. This is largely due to the fact that monsters have increasingly high fortitude saves while assassins have very little in the way of enhancements, or items to use so that their assassinate DC can keep up. I think there may be only two items in the entire game that increase assassinate DC. Assassinating is really the whole idea behind the prestige class and is a large part of what makes it fun to play. Please get this fixed as soon as it is feasible.

    Several things could be done to fix this and I would greatly appreciate any or all of them. The base DC of the assassinate skill could be increased by a set amount once the rogue hits level 20. This base adjustment would allow the skill to continue being useful and wouldn't cost the rogue extra action points or item slots that they're already using elsewhere.

    Assassinate DC could be made an enhancement found on random loot much like seeker, backstab, etc. It would have to be enough of an increase to make a significant difference though.

    More enhancements in the base assassin tree in epic destinies, or both could make enough of a difference to make the skill useful again. This is also an option but as I said before would take up AP or destiny points they may already be using other places. If increases in assassinate DC were added to existing enhancements, that would fix the problem without having to use the extra points. I hope you see and consider this soon.

    Thanks for all the work you do on this great game.

  2. #2
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wierdattacx View Post
    It is well known fact by now that the rouge assassinate ability is largely useless at epic levels, and rarely works if at all in epic quests. This is largely due to the fact that monsters have increasingly high fortitude saves while assassins have very little in the way of enhancements, or items to use so that their assassinate DC can keep up. I think there may be only two items in the entire game that increase assassinate DC. Assassinating is really the whole idea behind the prestige class and is a large part of what makes it fun to play. Please get this fixed as soon as it is feasible.

    Several things could be done to fix this and I would greatly appreciate any or all of them. The base DC of the assassinate skill could be increased by a set amount once the rogue hits level 20. This base adjustment would allow the skill to continue being useful and wouldn't cost the rogue extra action points or item slots that they're already using elsewhere.

    Assassinate DC could be made an enhancement found on random loot much like seeker, backstab, etc. It would have to be enough of an increase to make a significant difference though.

    More enhancements in the base assassin tree in epic destinies, or both could make enough of a difference to make the skill useful again. This is also an option but as I said before would take up AP or destiny points they may already be using other places. If increases in assassinate DC were added to existing enhancements, that would fix the problem without having to use the extra points. I hope you see and consider this soon.

    Thanks for all the work you do on this great game.
    no thank you, instead of patching up their botched up work like that they should fix the overly stupid amount of hp and saves on (most) EE mobs).
    Switching between real weapons and +10 assassinate clubs of ghostbane causes more slowdown, more server load, this is an action mmo, give us more speed, fix your mess turbine.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wierdattacx View Post
    It is well known fact by now that the rouge assassinate ability is largely useless at epic levels, and rarely works if at all in epic quests. This is largely due to the fact that monsters have increasingly high fortitude saves while assassins have very little in the way of enhancements, or items to use so that their assassinate DC can keep up. I think there may be only two items in the entire game that increase assassinate DC. Assassinating is really the whole idea behind the prestige class and is a large part of what makes it fun to play. Please get this fixed as soon as it is feasible.

    Several things could be done to fix this and I would greatly appreciate any or all of them. The base DC of the assassinate skill could be increased by a set amount once the rogue hits level 20. This base adjustment would allow the skill to continue being useful and wouldn't cost the rogue extra action points or item slots that they're already using elsewhere.

    Assassinate DC could be made an enhancement found on random loot much like seeker, backstab, etc. It would have to be enough of an increase to make a significant difference though.

    More enhancements in the base assassin tree in epic destinies, or both could make enough of a difference to make the skill useful again. This is also an option but as I said before would take up AP or destiny points they may already be using other places. If increases in assassinate DC were added to existing enhancements, that would fix the problem without having to use the extra points. I hope you see and consider this soon.

    Thanks for all the work you do on this great game.
    I'm gunna take a wild guess that you are new to rogues considering a well built assassin has very little problems assassinating on EE let alone in the lower epics. My mechanic rogue that is not max int nor has an assassinate item can reach DCs in the 60's just by resetting enhancements and taking tier 5's in assassin tree instead of the mechanic tree. What is your DC breakdown maybe i can give you some pointers. (probably something you are missing and don't realize).
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    no thank you, instead of patching up their botched up work like that they should fix the overly stupid amount of hp and saves on (most) EE mobs).
    Switching between real weapons and +10 assassinate clubs of ghostbane causes more slowdown, more server load, this is an action mmo, give us more speed, fix your mess turbine.
    Assassinate should be treated like any other tactical combat move. Stunning Fist, blow, etc are affected by buffs that boost tactical feat DC's, so why not assassinate as well? There would be no need to "switch between real weapons and +10 assassinate blah blah blah" if things like Exceptional Combat Mastery on gear would work for boosting assassinate just like it does Stuns, trips, etc.

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    - Assassinate should be treated as a combat tactic
    - Assassinate, as well as all other abilities that use the character level in their formula, should treat epic levels as character levels.
    - One possible fix is to have a fraction of the user's hide and/or move silent skill increase their assassinate DC. (IE +1 dc per 10 full points of hide/move silent)

    I'd like to see the math behind the toons that some are saying "can reach EE assassinate DC's easily," because, quite frankly, I don't believe them.

    None of my assassins have ever made it past the low 50's, and that's after including the 6 from shadowdancer and 5 from being stealthed for long enough.

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    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Substitutename View Post
    - Assassinate should be treated as a combat tactic
    - Assassinate, as well as all other abilities that use the character level in their formula, should treat epic levels as character levels.
    - One possible fix is to have a fraction of the user's hide and/or move silent skill increase their assassinate DC. (IE +1 dc per 10 full points of hide/move silent)

    I'd like to see the math behind the toons that some are saying "can reach EE assassinate DC's easily," because, quite frankly, I don't believe them.

    None of my assassins have ever made it past the low 50's, and that's after including the 6 from shadowdancer and 5 from being stealthed for long enough.
    I'm at 55 DC and level 18
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    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    I'm at 55 DC and level 18
    Yeah, no idea what mine was before I TR'd her, but I bet I could figure it out.

    20 INT + 2 boat + 7 item + 2 item + 1 item + 4 tome + 6 levels + 2 capstone + 2 race ... that's a 46 ... think I was higher and even now you can get 4 points of INT out of Rogue easily. Let's call it a +20. Add one more INT for an additional level at 28, a few more in items, yugo pots, spellsinger song, bigger tome, ED selections + twists, epic feats ... thats a good 12-16 more INT you could aim for easily for a +6-8 swing. I mean, these take time, but if you want to rock that ability you aim for that goal.

    10 + rogue level 20 + 20 int + 6 shadowdancer + 2 emg = 58 ...



    If you can't make it out of the low 50s, then you probably aren't building for INT and assassinate.
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  8. #8
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    @OP: Assassins can get an EE effective DC if built for it. What is your current DC and build? Perhaps we can give you some tips to help you get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Substitutename View Post
    I'd like to see the math behind the toons that some are saying "can reach EE assassinate DC's easily," because, quite frankly, I don't believe them.
    I get a 69 DC on my assassin without major sacrifice in other build aspects. Check out the link in my sig for full breakdowns and build info. I'm not even fully geared or capped yet and with a 62ish DC I can still assassinate casters in EE Stormhorns almost every time and higher fort mobs some of the time. It's definitely doable but you have to build for it, just like any other DC based ability.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wierdattacx View Post
    It is well known fact by now that the rouge assassinate ability is largely useless at epic levels, and rarely works if at all in epic quests. This is largely due to the fact that monsters have increasingly high fortitude saves while assassins have very little in the way of enhancements, or items to use so that their assassinate DC can keep up. I think there may be only two items in the entire game that increase assassinate DC. Assassinating is really the whole idea behind the prestige class and is a large part of what makes it fun to play. Please get this fixed as soon as it is feasible.

    Several things could be done to fix this and I would greatly appreciate any or all of them. The base DC of the assassinate skill could be increased by a set amount once the rogue hits level 20. This base adjustment would allow the skill to continue being useful and wouldn't cost the rogue extra action points or item slots that they're already using elsewhere.

    Assassinate DC could be made an enhancement found on random loot much like seeker, backstab, etc. It would have to be enough of an increase to make a significant difference though.

    More enhancements in the base assassin tree in epic destinies, or both could make enough of a difference to make the skill useful again. This is also an option but as I said before would take up AP or destiny points they may already be using other places. If increases in assassinate DC were added to existing enhancements, that would fix the problem without having to use the extra points. I hope you see and consider this soon.

    Thanks for all the work you do on this great game.
    i'm getting +7 DC from enhancements (measure the foe and +4 INT) and +6 from shadow dancer (all in one tier 1 ability at that!), so there is quite a large bonus to be had from those places already.

    the items thing sucks, +2 DC from one farmable item (excluding the iconic item). i'm not sure the standard item bonuses that scale up to 10 would be wise though, but maybe the exceptional combat mastery items could be buffed to include assassinate?

    that said my mechassassin is lvl23 at the moment and has been rocking the relevant epics. he's done both GH on hard and generic eberron on elite and his assassinate of 58 has been very effective. that does include a +5 INT tome from mabar and a LR to do full INT based, but item wise i have no EMG and am on a +7 INT loot-gen item with the cove +2 exceptional.

    Quote Originally Posted by Substitutename View Post
    - Assassinate should be treated as a combat tactic
    - Assassinate, as well as all other abilities that use the character level in their formula, should treat epic levels as character levels.
    - One possible fix is to have a fraction of the user's hide and/or move silent skill increase their assassinate DC. (IE +1 dc per 10 full points of hide/move silent)

    I'd like to see the math behind the toons that some are saying "can reach EE assassinate DC's easily," because, quite frankly, I don't believe them.

    None of my assassins have ever made it past the low 50's, and that's after including the 6 from shadowdancer and 5 from being stealthed for long enough.
    i think the hide/move silently idea would really bork our stats. i've just hit the 70's on both with no items equipped at lvl23! i hear you can get them into the 100's if you actually try!

    for a breakdown there are 2 good sources, one is already linked in a sig above but here the pair are for convinience

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...san-s-Assassin
    and
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nt-based-build

    now that isn't to say an EE-ready DC will be easy to get to, i'd expect a new rogue to have to farm a lot of items before they are ready for EE. my personal goal is to be EH ready by cap, then if the grind doesn't wear me out i'll start working on getting EE ready. as mentioned above at lvl23 i'm already at 58 with full measure the foe, that will go up a little due to more INT on the way from levels.
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  10. #10
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Assassinate is actually one of the easier DC based abilities to get to EE effectiveness, similar to monk abilities. Casters need several past lives for extra DCs and spell pen. Most tactical feats benefit a great deal from fighter past lives. But assassinate and a monk's DC abilities can be made EE effective on a first life build. The build as a whole would certainly be much better off as a 36 point build, but the DC abilities can still be effective if built for it.

    I would say gear is a requirement though. You can't expect to have a DC based ability that is effective in the hardest content without some of the best gear.
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

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    I guess I should be more specific. I want an assassinate DC that can at least get on the d20 of an EE enemy without making my build "Assassinato the Assassinating Assassinator." If I'm expected to put all my level ups in int as someone posted above, that ability better be freaking awesome. And I'm not gonna lie, it ain't no quivering palm. Worse cool down, less gear to help the DC, and a stealth requirement. And the monks have other reasons to want their tactics DC's high, so either the stuns are icing on the cake to your quivering palm build, or the palm is icing to your monk cc build.

    I'll tell you one thing that doesn't seem right. Artis and Druids get levels on their pets for every epic level. Why doesn't my rogue's assassinate DC go up? They're both abilities based 1-for-1 on the class level.

    Assassins need another 15-20 +DC readily available to them via gear. Until then, my best assassin toon is my mediocre monk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Substitutename View Post
    Assassins need another 15-20 +DC readily available to them via gear. Until then, my best assassin toon is my mediocre monk.
    How about making your mediocre monk a good and proper monk?
    I think many of us can help with that... Light Monk's ought to be the top of the DPS melee crop at the current moment when well built and well geared. In comparison no other toon of mine has ever had above 100 dmg a hit on every hit not counting sneak attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post

    I get a 69 DC on my assassin without major sacrifice in other build aspects. Check out the link in my sig for full breakdowns and build info.
    I looked at it. Your build is completely about assassinate. You have all levels in int, took 6 int from shadow dancer, have the game's only assassinate DC item (outside shadarkai) that I've farmed 200+ runs for the shard for, and have never seen, took int from the racial enhancements, have a yugo pot constantly flowing apparently, and even went up the mechanic tree diving for the two points of int there. You have higher int than most wizards! I would hate to be that assassin build if he woke up one day and assassinate was bugged and not working. He is quite literally what I refer to as "Assassinato the Assassinating Assassinator." Everything else in that build you get just for being a rogue.

    I don't mind having a DC that fails in EE a good portion of the time because I didn't want to be Einstein with a pair of blades. I expect with a reasonable devotion to the ability to have it work SOME, at least.

    Especially considering I could've just been a monk with half the build/gear effort and always go into sneak before using quivering palm just for the assassination flavor.
    Last edited by Substitutename; 11-20-2013 at 01:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy310 View Post
    How about making your mediocre monk a good and proper monk?
    I think many of us can help with that... Light Monk's ought to be the top of the DPS melee crop at the current moment when well built and well geared. In comparison no other toon of mine has ever had above 100 dmg a hit on every hit not counting sneak attack.
    Oh, I'm not saying monks are inherently bad in any way. I call my monk mediocre not because of her performance or stats, but because of the little time I've spent on her. I grabbed an antipode, got PDK favor and an AH'd planar focus, AH'd her a shatter dunrobar ring, got the Estar set with an AH'd caparison, and took some cannith mats I had and handed her a 5 stacking tactics belt and called it a day. Aside from getting her own evening star comms, she just suntanned next to the lake for a while and is a significantly better assassin than my assassin. THAT is my issue. And yes, she does hit for about 100 a swing before stuns.

  15. #15
    The Hatchery CThruTheEgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Substitutename View Post
    I looked at it. Your build is completely about assassinate. You have all levels in int, took 6 int from shadow dancer, have the game's only assassinate DC item (outside shadarkai) that I've farmed 200+ runs for the shard for, and have never seen, took int from the racial enhancements, have a yugo pot constantly flowing apparently, and even went up the mechanic tree diving for the two points of int there. You have higher int than most wizards! I would hate to be that assassin build if he woke up one day and assassinate was bugged and not working. He is quite literally what I refer to as "Assassinato the Assassinating Assassinator." Everything else in that build you get just for being a rogue.

    I don't mind having a DC that fails in EE a good portion of the time because I didn't want to be Einstein with a pair of blades. I expect with a reasonable devotion to the ability to have it work SOME, at least.

    Especially considering I could've just been a monk with half the build/gear effort and always go into sneak before using quivering palm just for the assassination flavor.
    The main goal of my build is to obtain an EE viable assassinate without major sacrifices to other build aspects. Survivability, dps, trapping, and DC are all top notch. In fact, pretty much the only thing I do lose is about 7 points of damage compared to a rogue that doesn't invest in int. That's a small sacrifice for the ability to instantly take out high hp mobs on EE. Every build built for DCs invests heavily in their DC stat. I don't know why you think assassinate should be any different.

    You say that with a reasonable devotion to the ability you expect it to work some. What do you consider a reasonable devotion? You've already been critical of investment in level ups, race and class stat enhancements, ED stat enhancements, and gear, so what else is there to invest? It sounds like you just want an easy button instakill that doesn't require any effort to get. You don't want to build for it, you don't want to gear for it, but you want it to work in the most difficult content. Add another 15-20 DCs to assassinate and you might as well take away the DC check altogether and just give assassins a completely free instakill.

    I'm not even going to debate the pros and cons of a rogue vs monk, there's another thread around here for that if you're really interested.

    BTW, I love Assassinato, the Assassinating Assassinator. Wish I'd thought of that name for my build. LOL
    Totally Bass Ackwards ~ int based/heavy armored pure tempest<>The Count of Monte Cristo ~ dps/CC/survivability focused pure swashbuckler<>Santa's Little Slayer ~ dragonmarked elf centered kensai<>Hassan's Assassin ~ 76 DC/dps/survivability focused human assassin<>Dubbell O'Seven ~ casting/ranged WF artificer

  16. #16
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    I can get to 60 max in assassinate, would like to get higher but don't know how I would increase any more.

    I started with 18 int, all level ups into Int. Wearing a +10 int item and using EMG. This is in Shadow dancer with the +6 to assassinate from that. I know I have some int from enhancements, but don't remember how much (at work right now).

    I too wish tactic bonuses worked for assassinate
    Last edited by Bolo_Grubb; 11-20-2013 at 03:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    Every build built for DCs invests heavily in their DC stat.
    I hate to bring it up again, but my monk is strength based, and quivers/stuns EE mobs with more success than fails. She's only wearing the 7 wis bracers out of the eveningstar set, started with a mere 14 wis, and never put a level up in it. I also don't bother with wisdom points from ED's. Just 3 gear slots that also do other things than just up the tactic dc's, and one tier 1 twist.

    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    You say that with a reasonable devotion to the ability you expect it to work some. What do you consider a reasonable devotion? You've already been critical of investment in level ups, race and class stat enhancements, ED stat enhancements, and gear, so what else is there to invest?
    I'm not critical of any of those, I'm critical of ALL OF THEM, together. The fact that you don't lose much for being a stephen hawking rogue rather than strength or dex based really speaks a lot to bad game balance more than anything else. What if I also enjoy the shadar-kai chain and want to make it a reasonable DC? What if I want to dip into a small multiclass splash? Any of these seem to be mutually exclusive with having a good assassinate. I believe that's wrong and a broken part of the game. Just like I believe that arcane DC's and divine DC's are wrong and a broken part of the game. They just don't scale into epic mob saves correctly.

    I'm in no way saying that an int based rogue is bad. I'm saying that HAVING TO BE an int based rogue to get the ability to work is bad. Yes, you should have an easier time of it, but with a reasonable investment, I should at least get on the d20, right?

    -As for a reasonable investment, I consider 16 starting int, a par for level int item, a ship buff, maybe a couple int from ED, and a 3 tome to be reasonable. Not enough to rely on the ability, but enough that it MIGHT WORK more than 5% of the time. Pumping it with AP is where I start considering it a bit of a stretch, considering its essentially 4 AP for +1 DC, making it one of the most expensive enhancements in the game. Yeah, you also get a search and disable point for free, but really, do you not have enough of those? Again I'm a bit leery at using 4 points in the ED for just another +1. At the low tiers, that seems alright, but at the high tiers, there are a lot of neat things in the top end of shadowdancer that people want to play with. I love grim precision for one, which you didn't fit in your build, and I would love to try out consume, as well as the epic moment if it was ever buffed to not being laughably bad. A 4 or 5 tome is pretty over the top, given the rarity. And then there's the issue of shelling out TWENTY TWO AP for the last +1 DC from mechanic. Just....yikes. It comes with some side bonuses, but the only one I would ever glance twice at by itself is the scroll mastery. The rest is pretty much burnt AP to me.

    What happens when we get level 30, and the EE content there has mobs with 60+ fort saves, or raids with trash closer to 70? With only 2 more character levels that don't add anything to your DC, what will you do? I saw in your build thread that the only conceivable remaining sources of assassinate DC for you to use are the short lasting action point stat boosts for more int, and sucking up a durability hit to be a drow.

    To be quite honest, a 69 DC when you've used every conceivable avenue of increasing it seems very lacklustre. I think in general a higher DC needs to be available in game period.

    Quote Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo View Post
    It sounds like you just want an easy button instakill that doesn't require any effort to get. You don't want to build for it, you don't want to gear for it, but you want it to work in the most difficult content.
    That obviously isn't what I'm saying, and I'm sure you're intelligent enough to know it. If you're going to strawman, I'm done with the conversation.

  18. #18

    Default Hmmm..

    Oddly my rogue has a dc68 assassinate and it works fine but the way I am reading this you are saying something equivalent to. I want to make a wizard i want to start with 16 INT, put all my points into Str to be an eldritch whatever the new enhancement is, and still be able to cast Finger of Death in EE with no focus items, no mastery feats and nothing but a +(insert number from 1-11 here) item on.

    Maybe you mean otherwise but really this appears to be how it reads to others. Also apparently yourddo doesn't work anymore how sad.

    Bowserkoopa,

    Will someone just put the easy button in the DDO store already, at this point why not.

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  19. #19
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    First life lvl 20 rogue on my friend's account with no gear has 38 DC (43 with the sneak bonus).

    That's almost as good as my necro DC on my multi TR palemaster before MOTU.
    Last edited by Ykt; 11-20-2013 at 03:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    Oddly my rogue has a dc68 assassinate and it works fine but the way I am reading this you are saying something equivalent to. I want to make a wizard i want to start with 16 INT, put all my points into Str to be an eldritch whatever the new enhancement is, and still be able to cast Finger of Death in EE with no focus items, no mastery feats and nothing but a +(insert number from 1-11 here) item on.
    If there were focus items or mastery feats for assassinate, I'd take them. I'd take the emidnight greetings if I could. Too bad the game decided that I can never even lay eyes on a shard for it after over 200 runs, and I'm one of the rare individuals who has always willingly refused to use certain...bag-related bugs to obtain one.

    Additionally, it's not like being a wizard and going eldritch knight. I'm a rogue spending a ton of my ap IN ASSASSIN. You would think that would help a lot in assassinating!

    And actually, I DO believe that dropping straight to a rock-bottom 5% success rate on anything DC related for a caster just because you aren't 100% focused is a broken part of the game in epic content. I wouldn't expect it to be reliable, but I'd like to have it still be a possibility!

    There's just such a vast chasm in between heroic and epics. I find heroic pretty well balanced and designed, where builds who specialize are awesome at what they do, but generalists CAN STILL PERFORM at the same thing. On the other hand, I consider epic levels to be terribly designed, where builds totally change to suit some ability in an ED, instead of the other way around, and specialists are good, while generalists just fail a lot at everything.
    Last edited by Substitutename; 11-20-2013 at 03:43 PM.

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