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  1. #301
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    My point is, that the end game of chess hasn't changed in over 500 years, but people still play it and enjoy it. Some people study it. Others do nothing else but play chess.

    An ever-changing end game is not necessarily the best destination for a favorite pastime.
    How long would that last if folks in tourneys could pay to put pieces back on the board?

    How about the manufacturer shipping the game with no pawns, then requiring you to pay to get the pawns shipped?

    Then in the next update they nerf the queen to move like the king, but if you pay, she can move like a regular queen again.

    Chess is a game with integrity when played correctly. The rules dont change for folks with fat wallets. Game balance circumvention isnt sold in the chess store. The long term plan to keep chess a past time was a good one. Maintain the integrity and quality of the game.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-19-2013 at 05:16 PM.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    the game it always different.
    No.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Not even close, Chess is a PvP game. The rules stay the same but the game it always different.
    And indeed the complaint of many is just this..Leave the rules the same, only play with content..and they do the opposite. It isn't often I agree with Troll but this is one such time.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    How long would that last if folks in tourneys could pay to put pieces back on the board?
    Undo. It's free, you know.

    How about the manufacturer shipping the game with no pawns, then requiring you to pay to get the pawns shipped?
    Chess enthusiasts collect pieces and boards and mix them.

    Then in the next update they nerf the queen to move like the king, but if you pay, she can move like a regular queen again.
    Who's they? You shouldn't charge your chess buddy to let the queen make 90 degree turns.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodchuckslayer View Post
    Leave the rules the same
    Original, Basic, AD&D, Basic 2, Basic 3, E2, Basic 4, E3, E3.5 or E4?

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    A little like blaming the pacemaker that kept you alive for 20 more years until you were 80, when it failed one day and "caused your demise". Much better for the game to have died in 2011 than to have been fun for a minimum of 3 or 5 more years? If you believe that then as I said in my last post, you can always stop playing. Me I'm glad I can buy things and help keep the servers on, especially when its something silly like buying a box for a "flavor of (my) month build" that before boxes I would never had bothered leveling in the first place. Pure win (no pun intended) for Turbine. I got to see if the build was fun when otherwise I would simply have moved on to something else, and Turbine got some money. It was money I would not have spent otherwise.

    Yes blowing 50 bucks for a few nights of entertainment (exploring a character build that was not going to be fun to level) makes me a "whale" I guess, but then it also makes anyone who ever took someone to a Movie and bought 2 tickets, 1 drink and 1 popcorn "a whale"... kinda puts that stupid term into perspective doesn't it? in DDO you're a fat cat if you blow 2 hours of entertainment money on it. I'm sorry I like reading both your and Chai's posts, but COME ON, lets be real here.

    Since we've been having these arguments for years now I've actually paid a little more attention to the relative "value" of DDO versus other entertainment. And it's ridiculous an MMO might be the single biggest bang for your entertainment dollar there is. I spend a few hundred a year on blu-rays, a few hundred a year on console games, a few hundred a year on Steam, and finally of course I seem to spend a few hundred on DDO. I go out to movies with the family, or to the zoo and I spend more in a single night or day than any of them. Went to visit friends out of state for a weekend and spent more than my DDO yearly just on gas and a cheap hotel, and then spent it again when we drove back 3 days later.

    Whale? what are you poor teenagers talking about? LOL

    OBTW: Awesome now I can buy an Epic box for that same toon and max the one ED that matters to it's build and see the concept fully built! And to think it simply never would have made it out of Ron's planner if it wasn't for those boxes.
    Biggest bang for your buck...hmm lemme see. How much does..say 5 movies cost? Now watch em over and over and over and over and..yeah. That's an MMO.

    Now you might be saying to yourself..wait, it takes me days to cap, it doesn't take me days to watch 5 movies. You would be right. You would have missed the fact that MMO plots develop much slowwwwwwwwer than movies though. Same amount of plot more or less.

    If that is your value that is your business. But it would be absurd to suggest that it is THE value.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    Original, Basic, AD&D, Basic 2, Basic 3, E2, Basic 4, E3, E3.5 or E4?
    Is this those? No.

    Where there titanic flops among those? Yes.

    Was it based upon selling more books? Yes

    Do they have to sell more books if they have subscriptions? No.

    Next.

    edit-Ask yourself how many of those you bought by the way. And then ask yourself how many of them you wish you hadn't. We don't have the choice here to opt out to previous systems do we? But we did in book form didn't we? How is it people always miss the real issue?

    p.s. They already have the game they are trying to make this into. Leave me mine.
    Last edited by woodchuckslayer; 11-19-2013 at 05:42 PM. Reason: addition

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodchuckslayer View Post
    Is this those? No.

    Where there titanic flops among those? Yes.

    Was it based upon selling more books? Yes

    Do they have to sell more books if they have subscriptions? No.

    Next.

    edit-Ask yourself how many of those you bought by the way. And then ask yourself how many of them you wish you hadn't. We don't have the choice here to opt out to previous systems do we? But we did in book form didn't we? How is it people always miss the real issue?

    p.s. They already have the game they are trying to make this into. Leave me mine.
    You are advocating that "they leave the rules the same." I'm asking you to clarify which rules you are pining for.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    You are advocating that "they leave the rules the same." I'm asking you to clarify which rules you are pining for.
    DDO has always been until recently3rd/3.5.

    It has recently added a great deal of..embellishment. Addition might be ok..sometimes. Retraction..not so much.
    Last edited by woodchuckslayer; 11-19-2013 at 05:53 PM. Reason: addition

  10. #310
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodchuckslayer View Post
    It isn't often I agree with Troll but this is one such time.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodchuckslayer View Post
    DDO has always been until recently3rd/3.5.

    It has recently added a great deal of..embellishment. Addition might be ok..sometimes. Retraction..not so much.
    So, if you look at the evolution of the rule books:

    Original, Basic, AD&D, Basic 2, Basic 3, E2, Basic 4, E3, E3.5, E4

    you like one of the last versions?

    What if we haven't reached the best version of the online game yet? You'd rather be stuck somewhere between Basic and E2?

  12. #312
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    Undo. It's free, you know.
    The game costs money. Entering tourneys costs money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    Chess enthusiasts collect pieces and boards and mix them.
    They still only get to place one full set of pieces on the board when they play however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    Who's they? You shouldn't charge your chess buddy to let the queen make 90 degree turns.
    The folks who hold the tourneys of course.

  13. #313
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    So, if you look at the evolution of the rule books:

    Original, Basic, AD&D, Basic 2, Basic 3, E2, Basic 4, E3, E3.5, E4

    you like one of the last versions?

    What if we haven't reached the best version of the online game yet? You'd rather be stuck somewhere between Basic and E2?
    Between 2e and 3e - segmented combat ftw.

    E4 was LOL. Next is OK but its not 2e or 3-3.5. Depends on how many LOL editions we need to slog through before the designers finally have an epiphany and create content.

  14. #314
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Yeah, because having something in the store already that doesn’t sell all that well is totally not an incentive for changing the game to increase sales!

    (Psst. Stick to the violin.)
    Yeah they totally changed that to increase sales of a niche convenience item... we're back to tin foil hat cynicism, and causality not equaling causation. If you can't see a map designer wanting to be able to use secret doors in their quests as the main reason for the change then you've never been a DM or made a dungeon on a piece of graph paper.

    They changed secret doors because they want skills to matter more, and to reverse a mistake they made with loot allowing a low level trash item to find every secret door in the game; making it impossible for a mapper to put any cool secrets in his maps. It also helped trivialize the Rogue class. look they even made a lot of other skills also matter more. (I know, I know the tin foil hat cynics say this was to sell skill tomes; you know the ones that drop in the game, and are also all over the AH for cheap) The new skills IMO have made skill points at character creation much more interesting parts of a build, but the cynics only see someone reaching for their wallet.

    Honestly XP stones are the closest thing Chai has to hang his hat on. But XP is cheap and plentiful in the game... So again they are selling something that is available without buying anything. DDO is one of the fastest leveling MMO's ever IMO. There are MMO's that take a average player years to cap. One would think DDO could stand to make leveling SLOWER by a LOT compared to other MMO's. As the levels fairly blaze by often players don't even gear up for large chunks because in an hour or two they will be in a whole new range of gear.

    And what did they just do to XP? They made it easier to get, they boosted many of the lower XP quests, AND they lowered the amount needed for most levels and heroic TR lives significantly... This simply does not jibe with the narrative that they're making their store items more necessary via redesigning the game.

    Saga's? New source of free XP/Renown, no store items required, though you can bypass some for AS if you really want to.

    Bravery Bonus? Sorry Chai more free XP and no store item required, not looking good for the narrative.

    Silver dice roll XP gems? No store item required, no AS spending required... just free XP and free store items, What?! yeah free store items? I have slayer boosts, major crafting XP, mana pots, supreme ability pots, store healing elixers, huge Gems of fortune, XP pots... And I've NEVER BOUGHT ANY OF THEM or spent a single shard on a roll... So much for Chai's narrative... holes like swiss cheese.

    Again Chai's narrative is that they HAVE COMPLETELY REDESIGED DDO; to sell more store items.

    He still hasn't listed all these redesigns he's claiming have happened. I gave him the massive overwhelming advantage of listing JUST 24 redesigned systems, out of "completely redesigned" all he needs to do is list a couple dozen... the game has thousands of systems and I am willing to concede Chai's point if he can name 24... And yet he can't... because the game hasn't been completely redesigned around the store, it hasn't even been significantly redesigned around the store. Yes there are some systems that have changed that also happen to have store items, and in a couple cases they might even sell more items because of it, but there have been just as many that don't fit (like recent XP changes).

    Epic TR: have to buy from Store? Nope, more convenient to buy from store? Yep. Lots of new store items required? nope. In addition the new CoV mechanic and their drop rate make XP pots less of a value in epic. DEVALUING A STORE ITEM; That narrative is on life support.

    Teleport for shards in large explorer areas? Teleport NPC's aren't a new design, large convoluted explorer areas abound even before the store existed. As did the mechanic of needing to visit an area before you can teleport there. So adding a convenient way to bypass this is not "redesign" and fits the exact definition of "convenience item" perfectly. Narrative: "he's fading doctor!" (note I don't LIKE that mechanic due to immersion factor but nothing to do with "P2W")

    +5 tomes in the store.... And given out for free by the arm load to anyone who braved Mabar lag, which judging from the lag was most of the player base. "paddles! Clear!"

    Tomes of fate? New ETR system marginalizes them by giving out fate points with no purchases required: "Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep"

    R.I.P Chai's Narrative 2011-2013

  15. #315
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The only thing posted over and over is your accusation of me posting the same thing over and over.
    Someone coined the phrase "Chai'ed all over the thread"... I'm just sayin' it might be time for some introspective self realization my friend

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    No. Do you defend Turbine for removing Detect secret door from the game, then selling it in the store? This is the very definition of P2W and people keep avoiding the question when I pose it.

    If you don’t reply, I will know your answer.
    Detect secret door rods have been in the store pretty much as long as the store has been around. The change to secret doors is recent. The question is, did they nerf detect secret doors in order to sell more store items or to make it so that the detection of secret doors was a special skill that only some characters had (like it was intended to be). Everyone I know had a detect secret door clicky at level 1 and could see every secret door in the game no matter what their search skill was. At that point secret doors were little more than an annoyance instead of a special treat to find. Whether the actual reason they changed secret door detection was to sell store items or to make secret door detection something that only certain characters could do is something we don't know for sure, but which one you assume depends on how much tin foil is on your head piece.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  17. #317
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Was agreeing with me painful?
    He was agreeing with me. Your turn to hjeal.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Why does everyone keep arguing with Chai just because he's Chai? You all know in your hearts that you would agree with everything that he's currently posting (no matter how absurd his posts are) if it were posted by anyone other than Chai.

    Can anyone explain why this dedicated disagree-with-Chai phenomenon happens? I know that it does happen because Chai has explained that this phenomenon is the only reason why so many people disagree with him when he posts things.
    Because Chai behaves like a know-it-all while actively ducking the points that people make to counter his argument. People can spend a half-hour writing a carefully worded posted and he will reply with, "Nope. I'm right." It is like having a debate with a 4 year-old. He will claim that he already answered that point in the past as a way of avoiding having to respond to variations of a general idea even though different variations of a general idea have different levels of validity and must be addressed separately. It's like he actually expects people to go back through all 50 of his previous posts in a thread to see which one addressed the current point being brought up. If he really thinks his post 3 pages ago adequately addresses the issue being discussed then he can quote himself as an answer (though, because different posts make points in slightly different ways, past responses are rarely good enough to actually address the points being made). Did you see the way he ducked Ungood's post about the pizza sample's? He claimed that the entire analogy was a step back from Ungood's original position as if that meant that the entirety of Ungood's post did not need to be addressed because it had no merit.

    The real question is why does Chai put some much effort into arguing with everyone if he is not willing to take the time to actually address their points? If you don't have a good response to a post it is better to ignore it than post, "Nope. You're wrong."
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

  19. #319
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Why does everyone keep arguing with Chai just because he's Chai? You all know in your hearts that you would agree with everything that he's currently posting (no matter how absurd his posts are) if it were posted by anyone other than Chai.
    Nahh, if I said the same things Chai is saying, trust me, quite a few people would disagree me as well, as they would anyone.

    Can anyone explain why this dedicated disagree-with-Chai phenomenon happens? I know that it does happen because Chai has explained that this phenomenon is the only reason why so many people disagree with him when he posts things.
    Yah, Chai claims people disagree with him because he's Chai, but that is not true, I have agreed with him at times, and disagreed with him at times, my stand on that is contingent upon what he says, not who he is.

    I am sure he has his haters, just as I am sure we all have our haters, such is life, you can't get to several thousand posts and not have at least some haters, just the nature of the game.

  20. #320
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Yeah they totally changed that to increase sales of a niche convenience item... we're back to tin foil hat cynicism, and causality not equaling causation. If you can't see a map designer wanting to be able to use secret doors in their quests as the main reason for the change then you've never been a DM or made a dungeon on a piece of graph paper.

    They changed secret doors because they want skills to matter more, and to reverse a mistake they made with loot allowing a low level trash item to find every secret door in the game; making it impossible for a mapper to put any cool secrets in his maps. It also helped trivialize the Rogue class. look they even made a lot of other skills also matter more. (I know, I know the tin foil hat cynics say this was to sell skill tomes; you know the ones that drop in the game, and are also all over the AH for cheap) The new skills IMO have made skill points at character creation much more interesting parts of a build, but the cynics only see someone reaching for their wallet.
    I agree with this... Secret doors were pointless. My fighter/ranger/monk spent some points on search, and so far, I can find every secret door. I'm glad the search skill is useful again.

    Honestly XP stones are the closest thing Chai has to hang his hat on. But XP is cheap and plentiful in the game... So again they are selling something that is available without buying anything. DDO is one of the fastest leveling MMO's ever IMO. There are MMO's that take a average player years to cap. One would think DDO could stand to make leveling SLOWER by a LOT compared to other MMO's. As the levels fairly blaze by often players don't even gear up for large chunks because in an hour or two they will be in a whole new range of gear.

    And what did they just do to XP? They made it easier to get, they boosted many of the lower XP quests, AND they lowered the amount needed for most levels and heroic TR lives significantly... This simply does not jibe with the narrative that they're making their store items more necessary via redesigning the game.
    Exactly... And they gave us bravery bonuses a year back... FOR FREE (!!). Everything is not changed around P2W... I especially like how Chai even claims that the enhancement pass was done just to make Turbine money in the future... somehow...

    And Sagas.

    But Chai is always right and we are always wrong. Fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

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