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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    I would recommend you stop posting and find a good Logic 101 book.
    Attacking Faulty Reasoning - Damer

    It's worth every penny...P2WFL.

  2. #262
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    You're making a judgement about a person's action. When you refer to a full blown action as shameless, you can't hide the fact that you dislike the action in general.
    Nope. I even outlined that I would be completely shameless if the stances were reversed. Did you read what you quoted? I dont like the impact p2w has on the direction the game is headed. Its not personal whatsoever. It has never been personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    Please answer the following questions in 5 words or less :

    1) Why was the game made?
    2) Why do people play this game?
    Potato.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #263
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    Post some links or screen shots in support, not rhetoric.
    This has already been discussed and hammered out in multiple threads. You are late to the table if you think you are going to rehash all this stuff from months ago.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #264
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    Will they? In 2010, 2011 or in 2012? Do you have a prediction for that date? We can start a doomsday countdown.
    T-Minus X-date of last good module. I mean honestly can you see this game lasting another year without an actual end-game?

    There is no point in building your toons up, making yourself more powerful, doing anything we do on the TR/ETR treadmill if there isn't a mountain to climb. How long will you stay on the treadmill with nothing new to do?

    We had two (did High Road come out this year? If so 3) modules this year. EGH was FRIGGIN FANTASTIC but is now dead because the loot people are bad at their jobs. Shadowfail . . . is old-hat already.

    As much as I was never a fan of Lord of Blades that module gave people something to build for. Now? All we get is P2win and ghostbane.

  5. #265
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Potato.
    Please keep your personal opinions out of this fact-based debate.

    The correct FACTUAL answer is 3.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    This is usually the last resort of someone who doesn't really know what logic is. And it is an overused tactic by most internet posters that can't refute what's been said.

    And, BTW, the post you quoted from Chai is actually correct. Turbine isn't making a whole lot of content as opposed to the past. The biggest update we got was GH retread. Druids Deep was "meh", One can argue High Road was something of note, and the Shar prequel and the current two quests are a drop in the bucket as it comes to content.

    However sweeping content changes of late were MotU and the Stormhorns stuff - and those you have to pay for regardless.

    And now they've made it that True Hearts are even more grindy than before. And if I recall correctly, you could at one point get a lesser heart with tokens, but that was also taken away at some point. You could only buy it in the store (someone correctly me if I am wrong on this).
    While his comment regarding less content per month is most likely factually correct, what follows right after is speculation. This red shirt fades with each wash (fact) because faes in the washer eat some of it (speculation) is not a factual sentence, and that is what Chai was presenting. He doesn't know WHY we have less content (as he is able to see and somehow measure) perhaps we actually have more content per $, or per hour, or perhaps really good developers were poached away to better spots, or perhaps the game is more profitable now then before.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    T-Minus X-date of last good module. I mean honestly can you see this game lasting another year without an actual end-game?

    There is no point in building your toons up, making yourself more powerful, doing anything we do on the TR/ETR treadmill if there isn't a mountain to climb. How long will you stay on the treadmill with nothing new to do?

    We had two (did High Road come out this year? If so 3) modules this year. EGH was FRIGGIN FANTASTIC but is now dead because the loot people are bad at their jobs. Shadowfail . . . is old-hat already.

    As much as I was never a fan of Lord of Blades that module gave people something to build for. Now? All we get is P2win and ghostbane.
    Since I heard about the level 28 increase (and future level 30 cap), I've TR'd my main 3 times to clean up my missing Cleric PLs and Pali PL. I've tr'd iconic twice and have one more before I TR 3 more Epic PLs. Then I have to do the same for 2 melee toons. I'm thinking I have at least a few months of gaming ahead of me. When my toons are completely beefy and geared up, if there aren't any new raids/epics I'll go away until they come out with some new stuff.

    Do you honestly think that every new mod is going to be your new favorite? If so, you may want to respec your expectations.

  8. #268
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    While his comment regarding less content per month is most likely factually correct, what follows right after is speculation. This red shirt fades with each wash (fact) because faes in the washer eat some of it (speculation) is not a factual sentence, and that is what Chai was presenting. He doesn't know WHY we have less content (as he is able to see and somehow measure) perhaps we actually have more content per $, or per hour, or perhaps really good developers were poached away to better spots, or perhaps the game is more profitable now then before.
    I think it is easy to figure out why we do not have more content. What is cheaper? Adding a new tr mechanism that keeps people playing the same content or spending a ton of time and resources on making dungeons and raids as an actual end game?

    Turbine figures that even if 100 people leave because of no real endgame, they have saved money by not developing new content and they hope that they can sell as much P2W as they can to make up for all those people that have left. This is not new. If within a few months we see another drop off of people (even if they eventually come back), Turbine will release +20 hearts in the store as they will need to make up the money they lost when people quit. This is how it has been for a long while.

    I may not be an econ major, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn express last night.
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  9. #269
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    While his comment regarding less content per month is most likely factually correct, what follows right after is speculation. This red shirt fades with each wash (fact) because faes in the washer eat some of it (speculation) is not a factual sentence, and that is what Chai was presenting. He doesn't know WHY we have less content (as he is able to see and somehow measure) perhaps we actually have more content per $, or per hour, or perhaps really good developers were poached away to better spots, or perhaps the game is more profitable now then before.
    Or perhaps we simply have less content, period. If you want know why, call the WB.

    However, noting we have less content, we can also note what we have more of - redesign of the game in order to remove easily accessed perks they want to charge us for.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #270
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guanmagi-1 View Post
    Since I heard about the level 28 increase (and future level 30 cap), I've TR'd my main 3 times to clean up my missing Cleric PLs and Pali PL. I've tr'd iconic twice and have one more before I TR 3 more Epic PLs. Then I have to do the same for 2 melee toons. I'm thinking I have at least a few months of gaming ahead of me. When my toons are completely beefy and geared up, if there aren't any new raids/epics I'll go away until they come out with some new stuff.

    Do you honestly think that every new mod is going to be your new favorite? If so, you may want to respec your expectations.
    And none of that is necessary from anything in DDO. A few PLs is a good thing to have but you hit that diminishing returns wall fast and hard.

    Some of us are looking for more from the game than just a treadmill, the hamster wheel is all that is left.

  11. #271
    Community Member Groucho48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Well, not ONLY because of that industry, but they were early to commit. Lets just say that the specific industry you are referring to showed how much clout it had in the video editing and production world, which was surpising to many because previous to that time it was not thought of as that big of an industry player due to remaining more underground.
    That industry plus VHS was the first to make it possible to get an entire 2 hour film on one cassette. Those two things greatly outweighed the fairly minor better resolution and sound that beta had.

  12. #272
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormraiser View Post
    While his comment regarding less content per month is most likely factually correct, what follows right after is speculation. This red shirt fades with each wash (fact) because faes in the washer eat some of it (speculation) is not a factual sentence, and that is what Chai was presenting. He doesn't know WHY we have less content (as he is able to see and somehow measure) perhaps we actually have more content per $, or per hour, or perhaps really good developers were poached away to better spots, or perhaps the game is more profitable now then before.
    First, you have no idea who Chai is, or what he knows outside of what he has told you on these forums (unless you regularly have a beer with him every Thursdays at the Blue Oyster bar, in which case my assertion is withdrawn). So without knowing this, your comments about what he knows are also speculation.

    I’m not defending Chai or his comments here. It’s just that if we are going by “logic,” that door swings both ways.

    It is not a stretch to say that content costs more to create and implement than modifying the DDO store and loot tables to spark more buying of “necessity” items from the store. There is no advertising required, very little Q/A needed by comparison, few if any design meetings to hash things out, no story line to create and edit, and so on. It is simply a transition from one mode of distribution to another. Yes, there are technical difficulties, but by comparison, transitioning is a cakewalk. And yes, I know these kinds of things from experience.

    Furthermore, if we are going to use Logic 101 as a rule in these forums, you might as well shut them down right now.

    Somewhere in there is a mildly favorable comment about The_Troll but I hesitate to inflate an already Hindenburg-esque ego with any more salacious praise.

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    The whales are the ones to blame in this situation. Why should Turbine invest in making real content when they have people willing to drop the mortgage payment on Otto’s boxes and keep in the tr cycle running the same old content?
    Oh come on Vint you've been mellowing lately and a lot better posts for it but that is just an offensively biggoted statement. Human nature is to blame? Because people with money buying things they don't have as much time to work at is just human nature. An Otto's box is chump change to a fair percentage of the US working population. And I'm pretty sure you have no idea what a mortgage bill looks like based on that comment

    People who aren't poor but have less time to play the game because they have jobs and earn disposable income are probably the main reason this game hasn't folded up and shut down. You should be thankful they have kept it afloat for you to play.

    They didn't ruin the game for you, they made it so you actually can still play it despite being a non contributor to it's continued operation.

    If you would rather it had folded instead of having pay for convenience items and store monetization then you have a perfectly valid alternative that accomplishes exactly that: you can stop playing the game and act like it folded. Without F2P that's where it was going.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    This is my whole problem with P2W. What is next? The more people buy into this the more likely we are to see Humans as a P2P class, WW being moved to a p2p adventure pack? I am really okay with Turbine charging a million dollars for Otto’s boxes, hearts of wood or many other things in the store, but I cannot support the notion of them taking away what was once free in game. It also frosts my rear when they nerf something in the game because it was to OP, then they sell something even more OP in the store to replace what they just nerfed.
    But didn't they sell secret door diving rods in the store long before they made the changes? Opps the chronology of the games design just invalidated Chai's example of "redesign so they can put stuff in the store". que trombone of disapointment: whaaaa whaaaa whaaaaaa.

    Personally I think chalking up the secret door detection changes to "P2W" is at worst pure cynicism (because there's some pretty dang obvious reasons why you wouldn't want secret doors to be autofound with zero opportunity cost by anyone with a low level easy to get item (cannith crafted no less) from a mappers/quest design standpoint) and at best is just grasping at straws like a lot of other "P2W" alarmist hyperbole.

    I agree with Thrudh that the store is almost purely convenience, and even meager examples Chai can come up with are often tenuous or questionable.

    Take for example the Tomes of Fate which he has called clear P2W "raw power" it allows 1 or 2 more fate points, however this actually only translates into one twist combo that isn't possible any other way (that involves having NO THIRD TWIST!) (and even that only requires the +1 tome not the higher priced +2) meanwhile more fate points were obviously going to be added to the game (2 ED's are missing making Chai's assertion disingenuous fro the get go) and guess what? they just added epic TR?*ng allowing you to earn more fate points.

    What's that??!!! they just designed something that invalidates or lessens a store item? Why that goes completely against Chai's narrative! Exactly...

    That's because his "P2W" narrative is a paper thin amalgam of hyperbole, self serving definitions, self aggrandizement, arbitrary declarations of victory, and borderline paranoia.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  15. #275
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    But didn't they sell secret door diving rods in the store long before they made the changes? Opps the chronology of the games design just invalidated Chai's example of "redesign so they can put stuff in the store". que trombone of disapointment: whaaaa whaaaa whaaaaaa.
    Yeah, because having something in the store already that doesn’t sell all that well is totally not an incentive for changing the game to increase sales!

    (Psst. Stick to the violin.)

  16. #276
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    I agree with Thrudh that the store is almost purely convenience, and even meager examples Chai can come up with are often tenuous or questionable.
    Come on. Hyperbole aside they literally sell XP now.

  17. #277
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Oh come on Vint you've been mellowing lately and a lot better posts for it but that is just an offensively biggoted statement. Human nature is to blame? Because people with money buying things they don't have as much time to work at is just human nature. An Otto's box is chump change to a fair percentage of the US working population. And I'm pretty sure you have no idea what a mortgage bill looks like based on that comment
    Bigot comment? I could come here and say I am a millionaire and all that jazz, but I do well for myself. The comment about people blowing money is in reference to me buying a heroic otto box the other day in the harbor for a million plat. Do you have that kind of extra money to go buy me 5 otto boxes for a million a pop? I am sure you do, but you have better things to spend your money on. My comment was based on people that throw thousands of dollars at this game every month.

    We will go a step further with my “low class status” as you see it. What would you say if you went to McDonalds and they started charging for napkins? This is exactly what Turbine is doing. Charging people however they can, while limiting what they produce.
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  18. #278
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    That's because his "P2W" narrative is a paper thin amalgam of hyperbole, self serving definitions, self aggrandizement, arbitrary declarations of victory, and borderline paranoia.
    You can call it as you see it, I however cannot log in to the game anymore and find a secret door unless I am willing to go above and beyond to spend. You have this misconception that I am too cheap to spend 30 tp. I am more than willing to spend as I have done in the past, but I refuse to spend if they are going to go bait/switch.

    P.S. Even Trudh said it was kind of shady for them to do this with the detect secret door. If he agrees with me I know you are doing nothing more than trolling.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  19. #279
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    My comment was based on people that throw thousands of dollars at this game every month.
    Flag on the play.

    Unnecessary Hyperbole

    15 yard penalty and loss of down.



    Thousands? Come on, if you said hundreds I'd believe you.

  20. #280
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Flag on the play.

    Unnecessary Hyperbole

    15 yard penalty and loss of down.



    Thousands? Come on, if you said hundreds I'd believe you.
    you get the point. Maybe there are new people out there that need plat, but charging a mill plat for a $50 box? Somone eiter has no clue the true value or they are a fat cat looking dropping real cash for a quick dose of plat.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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