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  1. #1
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default Fix melee druids

    As I see it, melee druids have 3 problems.

    1) The more druid levels you take, the less reason there is to take more, if you are going melee.

    2) Wolves are better melee combatants than bears, since they attack faster and get more benefit from all of the doublestrike bonuses that druids can get access to, as a result. A lot like repeating crossbows vs. regular crossbows.

    3) Wild Fighting feat isn't worth taking 3 times, since doublestrike bonuses can be had from other sources, and druids get no bonus feats. Thus, taking Wild Fighting 3 times is not really practical.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    As I see it, melee druids have 3 problems.

    1) The more druid levels you take, the less reason there is to take more, if you are going melee.

    2) Wolves are better melee combatants than bears, since they attack faster and get more benefit from all of the doublestrike bonuses that druids can get access to, as a result. A lot like repeating crossbows vs. regular crossbows.

    3) Wild Fighting feat isn't worth taking 3 times, since doublestrike bonuses can be had from other sources, and druids get no bonus feats. Thus, taking Wild Fighting 3 times is not really practical.
    #1 Very true, but the reason for this is that more druid levels you take the more your spells do from scaling and the more spells you have. They did buff wolf form not to long ago with +9 damage in the cores and enhancments. This simulates a weighted epic weapon, wolves are 1d10+9. Druids are still behind but they really should be because they can heal, CC and do spell damage. You want more damage, just splash two monk instant access to 5d10 damage.

    #2 They need to fix the bear. At least the worthless 15% enhancement to attack speed on the capstone. Screw that noise actually, they need to fix bears. They need something more.

    #3 Your right natural fighting is next to worthless on a pure druid, don't have feats and too little gain. If you run the numbers, empower does more dps than natural fighting just using the creeping cold SLA. Trick is keeping it up. Pure druids are about mixing melee and spell casting. Melee to maintain damage, apply debuffs and gain mana, spell casting to keep dps uptime and burst. It is a very active playstyle. Natural fighting should be better than it currently is and only way to fix it is to hide a core or enhancement which requires a lot of druid levels. A straight buff to this feat would help the deeps splits more otherwise.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    As I see it, melee druids have 3 problems.

    1) The more druid levels you take, the less reason there is to take more, if you are going melee.

    2) Wolves are better melee combatants than bears, since they attack faster and get more benefit from all of the doublestrike bonuses that druids can get access to, as a result. A lot like repeating crossbows vs. regular crossbows.

    3) Wild Fighting feat isn't worth taking 3 times, since doublestrike bonuses can be had from other sources, and druids get no bonus feats. Thus, taking Wild Fighting 3 times is not really practical.
    How about fix the druid/monk glitch involving glitching throwing weapon effects to handwraps?

  4. #4
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XxJFGxX View Post
    How about fix the druid/monk glitch involving glitching throwing weapon effects to handwraps?
    It's a bug. Report it and don't bother innocent bystanders with your irritation.

  5. #5
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    The biggest problem with melee druid is how players build them. You don't have to be in animal form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    The biggest problem with melee druid is how players build them. You don't have to be in animal form.
    I thought about that once for a quarterstaff build but there are a lot of advantages in wolf.

    #1 mana on crit - this is huge
    #2 magic fang - 5 hit and damge, that's 10 effective strength, 5 AC, 15 spellpower
    #3 faster attack speed
    #4 Baiting bite, snowslide
    #5 Sneak attack damage, sneak flanking bonuses
    #6 9 dmg from cores and enhancements

    Splashing its a different ballgame.

  7. #7
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rush007 View Post
    I thought about that once for a quarterstaff build but there are a lot of advantages in wolf.

    #1 mana on crit - this is huge
    #2 magic fang - 5 hit and damge, that's 10 effective strength, 5 AC, 15 spellpower
    #3 faster attack speed
    #4 Baiting bite, snowslide
    #5 Sneak attack damage, sneak flanking bonuses
    #6 9 dmg from cores and enhancements

    Splashing its a different ballgame.
    The main problem is its single target dps, so you might have higher dps against a single mob, but you will clear 10 mobs much more slowly than a thf in elemental form.

    second is that despite the higher attack speed and double strike, you attack slower than twf because no off hand attacks.

    The third big problem is that your going to be doing d10 damage in epic instead of [3]d10, plus no momentum swing, no lay waste

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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    It's a bug. Report it and don't bother innocent bystanders with your irritation.
    It's not an irritation, it's more like a spellplague! lol xD

  9. #9
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    But on a more serious note, What would be the ideal way to make a half way decent melee druid feat wise?

  10. #10
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 28 Lawful Neutral Human Male
    (6 Monk \ 1 Rogue \ 13 Druid \ 8 Epic) 
    Hit Points: 466
    Spell Points: 1315 
    BAB: 13\13\18\23
    Fortitude: 17
    Reflex: 18
    Will: 17
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 28)
    Strength             18                    32
    Dexterity            14                    18
    Constitution         15                    19
    Intelligence         14                    18
    Wisdom                8                    12
    Charisma              8                    12
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
    +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
    +4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
    +4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 28)
    Balance               4                    21
    Bluff                -1                     9
    Concentration         6                    22
    Diplomacy            -1                     9
    Disable Device        n/a                  35
    Haggle               -1                     9
    Heal                  3                    34
    Hide                  2                    12
    Intimidate           -1                    11
    Jump                  4                    26
    Listen               -1                     9
    Move Silently         2                    12
    Open Lock             n/a                  17
    Perform              n/a                    n/a
    Repair                2                    12
    Search                4                    35
    Spellcraft            4                    14
    Spot                  3                    13
    Swim                  n/a                  n/a
    Tumble                3                    20
    Use Magic Device      1                    32
    
    Level 1 (Druid)
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Healing Spell
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Druid
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Druid
    Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
    
    
    Level 2 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 3 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 4 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 5 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
    
    
    Level 6 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
    
    
    Level 7 (Monk)
    
    
    Level 8 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
    
    
    Level 9 (Druid)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Wolf
    
    
    Level 10 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 11 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 12 (Druid)
    Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms
    Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Bear
    
    
    Level 13 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 14 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 15 (Druid)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Winter Wolf
    
    
    Level 16 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 17 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 18 (Druid)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
    Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Dire Bear
    
    
    Level 19 (Druid)
    
    
    Level 20 (Druid)
    Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Fire Elemental
    
    
    Level 21 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical
    
    
    Level 22 (Epic)
    
    
    Level 23 (Epic)
    
    
    Level 24 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 25 (Epic)
    
    
    Level 26 (Epic)
    Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 27 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed
    
    
    Level 28 (Epic)
    Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
    Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Strength (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Great Weapon Aptitude (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Human - Great Weapon Aptitude (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Nature's Warrior (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Extra Wild Empathy (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Athletic (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Nature's Warrior (Drd) - Vengeful Hunter (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Protection from Tainted Creatures (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Ki Shout (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Exemplar (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Exemplar (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Control (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Riddle of Fire (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Way of the Patient Tortoise (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Quick Strike (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Quick Strike (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Quick Strike (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Contemplation (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Contemplation (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Contemplation (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Lighting the Candle (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Lighting the Candle (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Lighting the Candle (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Strength (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Strength (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Staff Specialization (Rank 1)
    something like this.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    The main problem is its single target dps, so you might have higher dps against a single mob, but you will clear 10 mobs much more slowly than a thf in elemental form.

    second is that despite the higher attack speed and double strike, you attack slower than twf because no off hand attacks.

    The third big problem is that your going to be doing d10 damage in epic instead of [3]d10, plus no momentum swing, no lay waste
    Estimated a Sireth build with baseline strength at 14, maxing wisdom for DC's. The single target dps was a lot lower like you said. Power attack would cut further into hit problems with just 14 strength I imagine and it would be a problem. Hit is an issue with that low of strength if you want to actually do dps with power attack on. You'll hit but there will be a lot of glancing going on. Could build strength, but then no DC's.

    TWF you have 1/2 strength to offhand, so while attacking more your hitting for less with those extra attacks. It about equals wolf form. Wolf form hasted is 130 attacks + double attack%, TWF hasted is 96 + 80% offhand I think? 96 + 77. It was close last time I checked this because of magic fang, the wolf sneak dmg per hit and x3 crit multiplier. Big thing is the no feat expenditure, that is the base wolf form attack, TWF is 3 feats. No wolf sneak, TWF would be better. I could see this pulling ahead with weapons with on hit effects and similar crit profiles. Again, for EE to hit could be issue. TWF is less hit by 2 and another 2 for oversized weapon. Wolf has +5 from fang, and +4 for flanking for winter wolf. That's a 13 difference. Maybe in this new to hit system that means almost nothing, have not tested that.

    innate wolf with capstone is 1d10+9+6d6 sneak vs 3d10

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