I agree with you that the old style of grind needs to be done with. It's too much work to grind out a level 20 "epic" item that is soon shelved in favor of higher level random gear.
It would be kind of funny if they trash this system, return to one before - I'd be annoyed if my Deadly +9 Resistance +10 we nerfed to uselessness and I suspect a lot of people would. The only real fix they have is to move the level cap up, change the drop rates on random loot, and what drops, and hope those items slowly make their way to the discard pile.
While the problem of random items surpassing named in power is of paramount importance I cannot stress enough how worthless random armor currently is.
It is the one item I never ever even bother to look at it's effects. Random armor is currently like a heavier gem, Just garbage to sell.
Some of the effect options I would like to see on random armor; Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, False Life, Vitality, Death Block, Hide, Move Silently, Balance, Concentration, Speed, DR, Dusk, Dodge, Resistance (saves), Elemental Absorption and Heal Amp.
As far as named loot goes, do not neglect the lower levels. Chains like STK, WW, Carnival, Tangleroot, Sorrowdusk and Threnal should have exciting options in their reward list. Currently most of these are very far behind random loot with a few exceptions (Visor if the Fleshrender is still a great item and used all the way to cap)
I can't see myself using most of these named items even without twinked gear. Random is just too superior.
Think of a new player who goes through these chains looking forward to all the named rewards only to find them inferior to the random junk they are currently wearing, so disappointing.
Last edited by Satyriasys; 11-20-2013 at 11:35 AM.
Join Date: Nov 2009
I have to agree that loot has for some reason become much less varied.
I must declare an interest: I haven't raided and so think that it is ridiculous that I can buy better loot for a few thousand plat than people who spend a lot of time raiding and actually playing the game can get in raids. Also, challenge loot is quite often surpassed by stuff I can find with a few minutes searching on the AH.
That being said my lvl25 ranger uses (in a state of flux so a couple of items overlap):
Deadly VIII Natural Armor 8 hat (with charisma 7 archmagi hat for spell points)
Deadly VIII resistance 8 necklace
Constitution 8 Speed VIII belt
110% fortification Protection 7 ring
Dexterity 8 Dodge 8% boots
Acid resist 40 (overlaps black dragonscale benefit) false life 40 ring
Also uses at least sometimes:
lvl21 +4 banishing rapier of the icy depths
lvl22 +4 banishing rapier of heartseeking IV
lvl23 +6 flaming IV rapier of disruption
lvl23 +4 Holy III rapier of improved disruption
lvl23 +4 Solar III rapier of improved smiting
lvl23 '+4 coruscating rapier of smiting (with festival frost)
lvl24 +5 Acid V rapier riposte V
lvl24 +6 shock IV rapier riposte V
lvl25 +4 improved banishing longbow of 6% rapid shot
lvl25 +6 coruscating longbow of disruption
lvl22 +4 caustic longbow of smiting (with festival frost)
He left the name, at which the world grew pale.
Math never helps solve problems, it only further complicates them.
I remember when there were no min level +6 stat rings in the game. I did not know about it until long after they no longer dropped, but I did not have any issues that some of the people I knew had a +6 STR rings at level 1. Then when the total overhaul hit and those rings suddenly got a min level, I was sad for my friends that lost those rings. I'm not saying that there need to +6 stat rings that you can equip at level 1, but please don't get rid of whats already in the system.
Drop deadly off the lists or make its min level drop higher than it is currently, but please don't go and change whats in our inventory. This goes for all the items that give more bonus than their min level really warrants.
While I agree that the loot tables needs another overhaul and/or rolled back to what it was before (I prefer a mix of the two personally), I would really like if what was in game stayed as it is. Yes that means that there will be a small bunch of min level deadly and accuracy that will get grandfathered into the system and the characters that own those items will have a bit more power than other people who dont have those items in inventory, but that was one of the things I liked about the old loot. There were the occasional gems that were lower than the rest of the items, or slightly more powerful. and looking for your own personal gem was one of the things that made the random loot interesting.
I would however like to see items with skills on them like I have been seeing spell power. If an item has a high enough level to warrant having a single +7 to a skill but has 2 skills on it, both those skills should be at +7 and not one at +5 and the other at +2. That makes it vendor trash for anyone and everyone. If it is possible to get items with 2 skills on it, make it pull from most/all of the entire skill list. that would make it so that i might (with a decently low chance) find a +hide item with +move silently on it, but more often I would find my +hide item with some random skill that i dont use much or at all, like tumble or swim or resonance.
Last edited by neain2008; 11-20-2013 at 12:19 PM. Reason: making the sentence flow better and/or make better sense
Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane
Loot is motive. Motive both brings in players and keeps those players playing. Players provide $$$ for your paychecks. Without motive, players stop playing...and paying.
Ungood already said many relevant and accurate things on this topic and made a rather nice list of named loot to demonstrate the "staying power" principle. With your changes, you negated much of the 'work' players had already done and motivated them to wander away from the game out of frustration.
I think the current loot needs to accurately reflect your next wave of content. Truth told, many of us are lingering with TRs like many people linger in a waiting room with an old magazine...waiting, waiting for new raids. The scale of the random-gen loots seem crazy because there is no endgame now with which to compare it. Loot is relative.
Diversity of loot is bad, but you said that in the original post. Yes, it's currently like a Scrabble tile bag with only 4 letters in it, but I'll elaborate a bit on things people miss seeing in that bag. Necessary things like Es and Ss.
-Clickies: invisibility, shield, expeditious retreat, solid fog, etc. Most people only heroic TR at present because you ripped endgame away from them, and clickies are useful to heroic TRs. This is not the place to dignify the epic TR debacle.
-Healing Amp: What are you guys trying to do, torture divines? Healing amp isn't just for the player wearing it.
-Parrying: Saves. Enough said.
-Healing Amp: Survivable toons are good. You can't DPS if you're dead.
-Pure Good & Righteousness. These were fine, they should've been left alone. Breaking DR while leveling is a good thing.
-Healing Amp: Yes please.
-MotU enhancements in general. There was nothing wrong with them.
-Healing Amp: Don't listen to The Raging Wanna-Be Hipster or His Hat on this topic. Please. He's been overruled by popular opinion.
-Needs to be worth fighting for. Don't just give it A Name. If a named item is replaceable by random-gen, or if the best thing about it is The Name, then don't waste your time designing or coding it.
-Relevance. Balizarde for ex...nice base/crit, lovely numbers for a rapier, but dodge on a weapon? Why? Seriously, let's think about this a little more before release.
-Celestias have offered up some much deserved rogue love. I get enough **** from 'Forte on this I'm just going to leave this topic right here.
-Raiding scene has dropped away almost entirely except for CitW items (Pinion, Celestia, Sireth...now negated by the double raid boxes to all toons), FoT for comms, and maybe VoN for SoS...though the latter probably wouldn't be as compelling without the XP slam. DQ, but only because you can ee run it with less than 6 people, and then, only for The Torc. The Torc defines raid loot with staying power. Motive again. The loot people are still fighting for should tell you quite a bit re what will motivate them with upcoming loot.
Cannith challenges named loot.
-There is good stuff here, stuff my TRs wear every life.
-Needs an update for the current 25+ game.
-Updating this w better loot would motivate people to run it. (And buy it).
-While you're at it...update the LoB loot. Bump it to make it relevant to L25+ as well. The prelim work is already there. I'm sure Monk-eys would like to see some new ideas for craftable handwraps.
My toon. I most enjoy my pure assassin rogue that uses fury most of the time. Dual Celestias and a Prowess trinket, or Celestia/Agony, depending. Balizarde/Agony when I shouldn't splash/aoe anything. Yeah, thx for the kukris addition, Turbine team...what kukris? Midnight Greetings for a bump to assassinate, maybe, but the weapon itself is garbage apart from that meager +2. A crappy weapon for a DC bump that is only needed in ee...where you should be doing more dps, not less, thus requiring much weapon shifting. Cormyrian red and a GS. EE treads. The rest.../shrug...the rest is very much 'whatever' w random gen and such. We need new L28 loot to fight for. I'd like more healing amp, but where is the hamp on any gear these days? Why isn't hamp a component of named/raid gear? We need more than outdated rings which are irrelevant apart from a hamp buff itself, if you go that route, and some starter gloves. More dodge selections would also be good...but not on weapons. See: Balizarde fail. Deadly...I like/use it, and its generic name is well-suited for any proper rogue.
-Make assassinate as tactically relevant as a monk's stunning fist or quivering palm in ee 6man by giving us the equivalent, relevant gear to increase DCs. I run a monk and her tactics are lovely, but she is provided with gear by the game.
Ok, let's say you finish with loot. Back to motive. To truly reestablish motive in this game, now you guys need to provide some lovely L28-worthy labyrinths (raids) for us to solve in order to earn named items. But I digress. Fix loot and work in a little love for proper rogues while you do so.....*assassination gear*.
I mean, really, 10 points to a 100 point mob or 100 points to a 1000 point mob changes nothing except the deck chairs.
Last edited by Scraap; 11-20-2013 at 12:55 PM.
Cannith crafting cannith crafting cannith crafting.
Let us make augments. Let us make good things. Holy dear god get rid of shards of potential, or at least offer a shard that pumps the level by 5. Or have the loot start at a higher craftable level.
Let us put augment slots on items that don't have them with our craft skills. Including named things.
If you're not going to get rid of them (its a bit late,) let us craft deadly, retributive, improved vorpal, and some of the other new enhancements. Even the semi-named things like sun's fury and of the crusader and the like. Anything available in random loot should be available to the hardworking crafter. Believe me, they earned it already. Crafting should have a payoff, such as enhancing already named loot, as well as providing a toon with the lootgen they want.
Also dear god add buttons for mass deconstruction of items for essences and large amounts of sundering at once. Pleeeeease.
Something DESPERATELY needs to be done about the old seal/shard/scroll epics. They're still some of the hardest-to-acquire items in the game, and only a couple of them are even worth thinking about nowadays. Either they need to rival level cap loot due to the sheer diligence required to obtain them, or the s/s/s system needs to be made much much much easier to reflect their now lower place on the loot totem pole.
(FYI many of the items need to be buffed regardless. In each epic pack, Only about 10-20% of the items are even worth looking at. And that was before the level cap rose above 20.)
Tod rings are also really hard to get, and just fall off the map after two levels. (With exception to holy burst and 20 heal amp upgrades to them. Level 18 raid loot should rival if not outclass easy to get level 20 junk. If not rival named loot. It should still be outclassed by higher level raid loot though.
Lastly, get some more named item representation for various item types. More named khopeshes, more named rings, more named everything! I shouldn't be able to count the number of good epic level named great swords on one hand.
Also ninja inclusion here: MAKE ALL COMMS BTA. ALL OF THEM. Btc is an evil restriction that makes people only run one character. Bta promotes having multiple characters. A player with alt-itis will probably spend more TP as a whole!*. *personal opinion, no facts researched*
Btc should be raid loot and raid loot quality gear only.
I'm sure there's more that could use fine tuning, but these are some of the first steps I'd like to see taken.
Alright loot doctor. The patient is on the table. It's been weighed in and diagnosed. Start doctering.
My easy-to make first life monk with crappy tomes and mostly eveningstar gear is a better assassin than my ACTUAL assassin toon, that has MUCH more gear effort put in.
Any monk can hold an antipode, a combat mastery item, a tier 1 LD twist, and a shattering dunrobar ring, and be a CC and assassinating MONSTER. Assassin rogues need some help to stand up to this Goliath that is beating them at their own game. Either mix assassinate DC in with one of the combat tactics, or start throwing some assassinate DC + items with epic-relevant numbers. Bear in mind the monk can get +15ish easily to their ridic ability. Thats not counting any stat gear. Assassins should be able to cover close to the same, also not counting stat gear.
Likewise the shards of potential are a pain /signed
I did mention in one of my earlier posts that it would be cool if more tomes dropped to trade in for crafting purposes.
If I was to handpick an example of a +5 Ghostbane weapon to support my point, it would be a Holy of Ghostbane III weapon. Holy would add 7 to the damage, Ghostbane III would add 7.5, for a total of 14.5. Then, if I was to handpick an example of a Ghost touch of Undead Bane weapon that I wanted to lose in the comparison, I would choose a +3 Ghost Touch of Lesser Undead Bane weapon, which would obviously come out behind (adding 6.5 damage counting the enhancement bonus). Point being that it is easy to choose good examples of one weapon and bad examples of another to prove a point.
It we are to compare the optimal min lvl 8 weapons, it would be the one pictured above alongside a Holy of Ghostbane III. In that comparison the two weapons come out about the same. Now make both a min lvl 10. The Ghost Touch of Undead Bane only gets a +1 enhancement added to it while the Ghostbane weapon can become Ghostbane IV, and it gets more lopsided from there.
Now obviously the advantage that a Ghost Touch of Undead Bane weapon has is that it can be crafted and one might not find the optimal Ghostbane weapon among the random loot gen. While I do craft, I like the ease of picking up the all in one weapon over having to go and get an Undead Soul Gem and needing to craft two different undead beaters (one that bypasses ghost touch and one that doesn't). It's generally the convenience of Ghostbane that I find appealing.
*edit - I'm not entirely sure if Holy exists as a prefix in random loot gen anymore. It could be some type of scaling bonus now for all I know.
Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 11-20-2013 at 06:42 PM.
Issue #1: Many modifiers ("of Speed", "Deadly", etc.) have tiers, but you can't tell the tier from item names, making shopping hard. Shopping is hard! Let's do math.- Aside from the diversity issue, what are the biggest problems with random loot, today?
Issue #2: It can be a bit intimidating trying to shuffle parts. Found some nice goggles? Great! Unfortunately that was my natural armor bonus item so I have to swap in my other one, which is a ring, so now I need to get a +con item, oh look I have a belt whoops that was my strength belt, okay, so I put on strength gloves, now I lost my accuracy, oh, good, I have accuracy goggles... Whoops, now I still can't use those nice goggles.
Issue #3: Last I checked, +N outfits weren't able to be destroyed for enhancement spirits. Not a huge deal, really, but still.
Issue #4: Lots of items end up with quite a few modifiers, which contributes to the difficulties of #2. Also, a +4 item which has +1 enhancement and three +1 effects is less useful to crafters than an item with a +1 enhancement and a +3 effect, because sharding for crafting materials picks only one effect. So the
Issue #5: The starter gear for vet characters ranges from "curious" to "completely insane". Multiple vet character starting sets have items which are offering no bonuses at all, due to stacking, or just due to being poorly-considered. (e.g., monks get an outfit that can cast mage armor, but has no bonuses, and also get bracers of armor +4).
Not sure #2 is fixable in any reasonable way. Augments help a bit.
I sometimes wonder whether crafting shards might not make an interesting alternative.- What weapon and equipment types do you feel are underserved in named and in random loot?
You seem to have a mild case of greengrocer's apostrophe.I’d love to hear about some of the non-named loot your character’s are currently wearing.
I have only lowbies so far, I play occasionally but never really get into actively levelling people much. For one reason or another, I basically never go for items that cast spells, I prefer static bonuses. Well, hardly ever. I tend to spend a fair bit of time staring at random items in the auction house, but it's rare that I find a thing I'd actually be able to make use of without a rework. I have on some occasions spent twenty minutes staring at rings to conclude that there's nothing I can buy which would be an upgrade for me... from a ring of protection +1 which is already being overlapped by a +2 deflection bonus from something else. But all the others I can find are stats I don't care about much, or stats that aren't quite as good as some other item I'm wearing. So if I can find a +10 fire resistance ring, but I have +15 fire resist in something else already, that's not helping much. Especially if the other item has some other bonus I don't have another source for...
Yes, that seebs.
Not having fun anymore? Learn to play, noob!
We've heard you all loud and clear regarding raid/named/random loot power, and yes, we agree. Named loot should stick around; raid loot should really stick around; and random loot should fill the gaps. We're digging in on taking theory back to practice here (as well as all the other big issues you invoked), and you can expect more information to make its way here, as we deploy changes based on on-going player feedback to places like Lamannia. Experience tells me that you'll see results slower than you might wish (i.e. within the hour :-P) - but hopefully a little sooner than you're accustomed to. I'll post more clarifying questions here as warranted, and as I mentioned above, another similar thread targeting named loot will be coming around on the merry-go-round.
Thanks, all, for weighing in!
Your 'umble servant,
P.S. And don't let this note stop you from sharing your thoughts here. I'll keep watch as best I can.
The idea is simple really, merge cannith crafting and random loot into one system.
1. This would mean all "non named" or "random gen" items are inherently craft able, Thus no more need for disjunction ! nor for shards of potential. (might want to replace them with paragon/epic/epic-paragon "Shards" if balancing is an issue).
2. The affixes/enchantment level should be overwritten or removed, rather than how the system works now.
3. all but the top tier abilities found on "lootgen" should be available with crafting.
4. some rare crafting recipes should have hard to obtain ingredients found in specific adventure packs.
5. the ability to craft material types on weapons/shields/armours, with respective "ores" got adamant just add the others.
6. ability to craft augment-slots to equipment.
7. scale the armour upgrade types like you did with paragon. (i.e. "battle" "plainforged" stuff)
Main positive outcome, your random loot that would otherwise be "awesome-item-of-****why is this here this makes it useless" and be vender trash, will now be ahh it has a nice affix and the other I can remove/replace !. this doesn't mean there wont be vender trash lootgen but hey you need to crunch some for your mats right!
also since the most powerful affixes are still only found in "lootgen" it will still have its "All-stars-align" gems, to make you smile.
Likely more to say on the named loot thing than just amplitude of effects as indicated in this thread (mostly stuck to those to keep close to apples to apples), but that'll wait till you've digested this one fully and are ready for round 2. Short version for now though:
I will ask ya'll to ponder over how it is we've gone from "my barb with no UMD can now teleport!" (royal guard mask) and "If I'm patient and cautions enough, I can save on SP pots!" (torc/con-op) to "here's two more levels, elemental X gains another die". The one system gives us abilities as we level/acquire shineys. The latter really, really doesn't.
Last edited by Scraap; 11-20-2013 at 05:10 PM.
While this thread isn't the best place to suggest this...
Please, oh please, make shard of potentials that are not upgrades for each level. ie Shard of Potential +15.
So that we don't have to make 10 freaking upgrade shards to make 1 ilevel 15 item.
Please don't leave out Cannith Crafting.
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