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  1. #1
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    Default PDK and bladeforged vs Shardkai and Sun Elf

    Which route will iconics in the future take? Basically, PDK is equal to or better than humans. They get every human advantage with a couple of extra flavor stuff. Even if you don't use that, they are equal to humans.
    Bladeforged are the same to warforged. They are mathematically superior.

    Sun Elves is a bit more iffy. They are conceptually different and utilize different weaponry and have a different focus from regular elves.
    Shadarkai have no real comparison as they are their own race, so again, more in line with the sun elf: different flavor rather than obvious superiority.

    Which direction do you think iconics should take? Outside of needing to LR +1, I'm not sure its a good thing that if you have money, pdk > human and bladeforged > warforged.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    PDK is equal to or better than humans. They get every human advantage with a couple of extra flavor stuff.
    They don't get DDoor from dragonmark.

  3. #3
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    With the +1 Lesser Res {or Free +20 Heart} it's now possible to make an Iconic be anything you want it to be.

    I've already seen a Pure Sorc Bladeforged Eldritch Knight and a Pure Wizard Morninglord Archmage .

    Expecting to see:

    Pure PDK Paladins, Bards, FavSouls, Sorcs
    Pure Shadar Kai Ninjas

    in the near future.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    With the +1 Lesser Res {or Free +20 Heart} it's now possible to make an Iconic be anything you want it to be.

    I've already seen a Pure Sorc Bladeforged Eldritch Knight and a Pure Wizard Morninglord Archmage .

    Expecting to see:

    Pure PDK Paladins, Bards, FavSouls, Sorcs
    Pure Shadar Kai Ninjas

    in the near future.
    I know that, and even posted it in my original post. That wasn't the question really. Pure shadar Kai ninjas, eh? I suppose. I actually dont like Shadar Kai all that much, but the past life would save me some AP.

    Anywho, as for the d-door dragonmark, I suppose that's one thing.

  5. #5
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    1. Bladeforged is not teamed with lowbie and pathetic fleshlings!
    2. IMO, bladeforged should not be made much more powerful than WF, because, WF is paid race already. But others, sure, why not.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    1. Bladeforged is not teamed with lowbie and pathetic fleshlings!
    2. IMO, bladeforged should not be made much more powerful than WF, because, WF is paid race already. But others, sure, why not.
    Ironically, then, the one you think shouldn't be overpowered is the one that is the most overpowered vs the base race.

  7. #7
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    They don't get DDoor from dragonmark.
    /seconded

    I'd take human over PDK.

    ETA: Unless that toon is going to otherwise have DDoor so maybe PDK for wizard, bard or sorc.
    Last edited by MartinusWyllt; 11-15-2013 at 09:56 AM.

  8. #8
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinusWyllt View Post
    /seconded

    I'd take human over PDK.

    ETA: Unless that toon is going to otherwise have DDoor so maybe PDK for wizard, bard or sorc.
    Bard or Wizard. Possibly cleric or FVS who wants to push CHA and not go w/ STR - can you be a FVS of the Host as a PDK? Sorcs need the spell slot, so I'd stick human.

    Bladeforged though - except for lives where you don't want to burn a multiple hearts and an alignment change in the middle - just look so much better than WF.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  9. #9
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    Which route will iconics in the future take? Basically, PDK is equal to or better than humans. They get every human advantage with a couple of extra flavor stuff. Even if you don't use that, they are equal to humans.
    Bladeforged are the same to warforged. They are mathematically superior.

    Sun Elves is a bit more iffy. They are conceptually different and utilize different weaponry and have a different focus from regular elves.
    Shadarkai have no real comparison as they are their own race, so again, more in line with the sun elf: different flavor rather than obvious superiority.

    Which direction do you think iconics should take? Outside of needing to LR +1, I'm not sure its a good thing that if you have money, pdk > human and bladeforged > warforged.
    PDKs don't get the extra skill point and cant use Dragonmarks and if your not a Cha-Based build the human enhancements are much superior

    All elves are underpowered and only used for racial access to AA so it doens;t really matter but Sun ELves make even less sense...Amauntor is primarily worshipped by Aasimar and Humans and +Int makes no sense for a cleric neither does access to AA or any of the Elven enhancements...the +2Cha/Wis of the Aasimar would have made way more sense and would have suited the iconic visual style of "similar to an existing race with a few unqiue differences" whereas sun elves look just like normal elves.

    Bladeforged do have some pretty cool abilities and the lack of -cha does make it better for Sorcs but the -2 dex is a big deal to alot of builds

    Shadar-Kai...nice race alot of cool lore abilities and the chain is a pretty awesome albeit expensive ability but I'd only put them about on par with the other races with Halflings being slighly better imo.


    I really would have rather seen these added as normal races...I really don't get the "iconic" thing (note: morninglord should have been part of the light disciple cleric line and PDK should have been a fighter prestige) they should have changes races to work like classes do (Mele, Catser,Specialist) except with racial groups -> subtypes

    For example (few races added to illustrate better):

    Humans: Human, Lesser Tieflings, Lesser Aasimar, Lesser Genasi, Shadar-Kai, Kalashtar
    Monstrous: Half-Orcs, Bugbears, Dragonborne, Shifters, Hengeyokai, Revenents
    Elves: Sun Elves, Aerenal Elves, Valenar Elves, Faerun Drow, Eberron Drow, Half-Elf
    Dwarves: Lesser Duergar, Shield Dwarves (current), Mul
    Vertically Challenged: Gnomes, Kobolds, Halflings, Goblins, Mouslings
    Constructs: Warforged, Bladeforged, Shardminds
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    PDKs don't get the extra skill point
    They do, as well as the same human bonus feat, but you're right that they don't get dragonmarks. (No iconics get dragonmarks.)

  11. #11
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    whereas sun elves look just like normal elves.
    Please don't take this the wrong way but it does have to be said...

    Sun Elves Do NOT look "Just Like" Normal Elves!

    Especially NOT when Sun Elves have Exactly ONE Skin Colour!


    Every Single Sun Elf in DDO looks like he/she's from the Indian Subcontinent!


    So NO they do NOT look "Just Like" Normal Elves!

  12. #12
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    So NO they do NOT look "Just Like" Normal Elves!
    Sorry I meant they dont get special features like Bladeforged, PDK and Shadar-Kais...beyond the skin color difference elves, drow and sun elves are pretty much the same, at least not any different than human are too each other visually.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  13. #13
    Community Member TekkenDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Every Single Sun Elf in DDO looks like he/she's from the Indian Subcontinent!
    Actually, with the facial structure, hairstyles and hair colors available, my choice of word for Sun Elves would be "Guido"....
    It bothers me ever so little when I look at my Sun Elf.

  14. #14
    Community Member merridyan's Avatar
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    For a wizard (PM), would Sun elf or Drow be better?

    Looks like +2 Int enhancements exist in both races, any other considerations?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    PDKs don't get the extra skill point and cant use Dragonmarks and if your not a Cha-Based build the human enhancements are much superior

    All elves are underpowered and only used for racial access to AA so it doens;t really matter but Sun ELves make even less sense...Amauntor is primarily worshipped by Aasimar and Humans and +Int makes no sense for a cleric neither does access to AA or any of the Elven enhancements...the +2Cha/Wis of the Aasimar would have made way more sense and would have suited the iconic visual style of "similar to an existing race with a few unqiue differences" whereas sun elves look just like normal elves.

    Bladeforged do have some pretty cool abilities and the lack of -cha does make it better for Sorcs but the -2 dex is a big deal to alot of builds

    Shadar-Kai...nice race alot of cool lore abilities and the chain is a pretty awesome albeit expensive ability but I'd only put them about on par with the other races with Halflings being slighly better imo.


    I really would have rather seen these added as normal races...I really don't get the "iconic" thing (note: morninglord should have been part of the light disciple cleric line and PDK should have been a fighter prestige) they should have changes races to work like classes do (Mele, Catser,Specialist) except with racial groups -> subtypes

    For example (few races added to illustrate better):

    Humans: Human, Lesser Tieflings, Lesser Aasimar, Lesser Genasi, Shadar-Kai, Kalashtar
    Monstrous: Half-Orcs, Bugbears, Dragonborne, Shifters, Hengeyokai, Revenents
    Elves: Sun Elves, Aerenal Elves, Valenar Elves, Faerun Drow, Eberron Drow, Half-Elf
    Dwarves: Lesser Duergar, Shield Dwarves (current), Mul
    Vertically Challenged: Gnomes, Kobolds, Halflings, Goblins, Mouslings
    Constructs: Warforged, Bladeforged, Shardminds
    PDK do get the skill points, and the bonus feat.

    You said -2 dex is a big deal. I guess on a repeater arti? But most arti's that are wf are juggernauts. Dex is important to twf builds but no melee would ever be a warforged.

  16. #16
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merridyan View Post
    For a wizard (PM), would Sun elf or Drow be better?

    Looks like +2 Int enhancements exist in both races, any other considerations?
    If you can use a LR+1 to remove the mandatory cleric level, Sun Elf is superior to Drow.

    The only enhancements the drow have to help a wizard is the Int cores and the +1 enchantment DC. Also, drows have 4 less stat points to spend than the other races (28 to 32)

    Sun elf get Int cores, +1 enchantment DC, +3 spell penetration, +100 SP, and Feywild Tap. Also, they have full stats points to spend (32-36).
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  17. #17
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    If you can use a LR+1 to remove the mandatory cleric level, Sun Elf is superior to Drow.

    The only enhancements the drow have to help a wizard is the Int cores and the +1 enchantment DC. Also, drows have 4 less stat points to spend than the other races (28 to 32)

    Sun elf get Int cores, +1 enchantment DC, +3 spell penetration, +100 SP, and Feywild Tap. Also, they have full stats points to spend (32-36).
    It's a good race to TR into especially for an Wizard AA Life it gets you right to the point where you would likely have Manyshot and IPS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakHar View Post
    You said -2 dex is a big deal. I guess on a repeater arti? But most arti's that are wf are juggernauts. Dex is important to twf builds but no melee would ever be a warforged.
    This is an incredible amount of wrong in one post :P

    Ranged Burst is the aim for EE these days. -2 Dex makes Manyshot, IPS and Combat Archery much harder to slot > other races. "Most" arti's aren't juggernaughts at all, don't get caught up in the idea that the forum population = game world at all :/

    It's often said that the forums are the 10%. Juggernaughts are actually quite rare to find, especially after U20 made so many other options much more viable.

    No melee would be a Warforged? Quite a statement. 25sp Recon SLA and Power of the Forge.... both incredible reasons to roll Bladeforged these days. ^^

  19. #19
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I will actually disagree that Sun Elf and Cleric do not have synergy. Here is why:

    1. The bonus to Intelligence helps in two areas - a) More Skill points b) Higher Intelligence modifier means a higher skill value this gives a 1 spell power with the potential of 2 spell power over their counterparts if they use the racial core.

    2. Many feel DC casting is dead, so the loss of 1 DC and a small amount of Spell points may be a good trade-off for higher spell damage (not by much but it is still some)

    3. Rejuvenation of the Dawn similar to Unyielding Sovereignty but without the regeneration (2 possible per rest),

    4. Blessing of Amaunator Tier 3 is 3 no sp casts of aid + Spell Resistance + Deathward - which appears to be based off character level as it is a Racial and not class (3 spells in one)

    5. Enchantment Lore - Enchantment is one of the primary schools of the clerics arsenal with only Evocation, Necromancy and Conjuration making up the others

    6. Fey Tap - Clerics can always use SP, this is a good source

    7. (this is more personal) but Blunt weapons on a Cleric - Thematic for use older DnD pnp players where clerics could not use edged weapons.

    Does it make up a super build - no, but it does make the cleric build I enjoy.

    Bladeforge Cheap Recon once you work past the Lawful constraint it makes self healing pretty powerful

  20. #20
    The Hatchery Correlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merridyan View Post
    For a wizard (PM), would Sun elf or Drow be better?

    Looks like +2 Int enhancements exist in both races, any other considerations?
    +3 spell pen and 100 sp isn't too shabby either, for Sun elves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
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