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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmooth69 View Post
    Displacement is now a self-only spell? Really?
    yeah, not a great fan of that change. as a umd cleric i often used to toss a displacement on a tank to get a bit extra breathing space if they weren't the best tank.

    The other thing we all forgot is that 100% fort is no good anymore. There are so many ways to bypass fort that you will be wanting 140% plus maybe? I'm running 140% atm and haven't noticed any crit hits (don't do Epic eleites so can't confirm that area), but at 100% crits where far to frequent to be happy with.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by IssianasGhost View Post
    yeah, not a great fan of that change. as a umd cleric i often used to toss a displacement on a tank to get a bit extra breathing space if they weren't the best tank.

    The other thing we all forgot is that 100% fort is no good anymore. There are so many ways to bypass fort that you will be wanting 140% plus maybe? I'm running 140% atm and haven't noticed any crit hits (don't do Epic eleites so can't confirm that area), but at 100% crits where far to frequent to be happy with.
    Holy hell...

    I'm thinking my short excursion of exploration is at it's end. I would have to totally respec some characters, grind whole new gear, and spend rectal loads of time reconfiguring and relearning stuff...

  3. #23

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    "It's not broke? Ok, we can fix that."
    See, the problem is that it was broken. AC was either near-immortality, or it was useless. That's a broken system.

    It's why the Holy Trinity sucks as a game concept and why I don't play games that utilize it. Defense-oriented people are so totally invincible compared to everyone else, that in order to threaten them in any way, monsters need to be SO buffed up that they'll turn any non-tank into finger paint in a fraction of a second.

    I don't agree with everything Turbine did to change the AC system, but the system absolutely needed to be changed. D20 even in PnP only really "works" up to about level 10. After that, the limitations of the level system and the very very limited span of die rolls possible is simply too constraining (or flat out doesn't work).

    There is still a big difference in survivability between tank and non-tank. But the gap is considerably smaller now, which is a GOOD thing.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmooth69 View Post
    Holy hell...

    I'm thinking my short excursion of exploration is at it's end. I would have to totally respec some characters, grind whole new gear, and spend rectal loads of time reconfiguring and relearning stuff...
    Generally, despite many grunting and so, the game is good and spending that time (if you want to spend your time on game in the first place) is worth it.
    DDO changed, some for worse, some for better, but its worth playing.

  5. #25
    Uber Completionist luvirini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    D20 even in PnP only really "works" up to about level 10. After that, the limitations of the level system and the very very limited span of die rolls possible is simply too constraining (or flat out doesn't work).
    It actually works pretty well after level 10 in PNP too, but the function changes. If you are not a tank, your AC is not about "Will I be hit", it is about "How many times willl I be hit?", as it is hard to get an AC that the enemies consistently miss on the first strike, but reasonably easy to get AC that is usually only hit 0-3 times, due to enemies getting that -5/extra strike.

  6. #26
    Community Member kned225's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmooth69 View Post
    Holy hell...

    I'm thinking my short excursion of exploration is at it's end. I would have to totally respec some characters, grind whole new gear, and spend rectal loads of time reconfiguring and relearning stuff...
    You didn't really expect to be gone for a number of years and not have to put some work in... Use those lr20s

    The old ac system was stupid. 99.9% of builds ignored it because it was absolutely irrelevant unless u gimped yourself. Thats not good

    Im not suggesting the new system is perfect, but at least it rewards players who put even a small amount of effort into defence. And its still possible to make a very tanky tin can who can survive in a crowd of baddies far better than most....in everything but ee

  7. #27
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmooth69 View Post
    Holy hell...

    I'm thinking my short excursion of exploration is at it's end. I would have to totally respec some characters, grind whole new gear, and spend rectal loads of time reconfiguring and relearning stuff...
    Good news for you though you can get decent Wallmart gear quite easily to carry you to the upper tiers.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kned225 View Post
    You didn't really expect to be gone for a number of years and not have to put some work in... Use those lr20s

    The old ac system was stupid. 99.9% of builds ignored it because it was absolutely irrelevant unless u gimped yourself. Thats not good

    Im not suggesting the new system is perfect, but at least it rewards players who put even a small amount of effort into defence. And its still possible to make a very tanky tin can who can survive in a crowd of baddies far better than most....in everything but ee
    I kind of agree... except I still ignore it completely because it makes no real difference in EE, which is the only place hard enough to matter.

  9. #29
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    I had less AC than that when I was doing IQ a few levels ago and my physical defences were rock-solid as a sword and board barbarian. I did Dreaming Dark at elite below level and everything...I don't think you're suffering from a lack of AC and/or PRR. You may be short on the newer mechanics or operating under false assumptions, but I wouldn't give up just because of that...you'll relearn the game faster than you think and there's a lot to admire about changes made since you left. Hang in there!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmooth69 View Post
    What other characters are super concerned with AC, outside of monks? Clerics? Barbs? Rangers? Palys?(with the exception of the intim/ac builds)

    To change an entire system, which wasn't broken to begin with, for the benefit of classes that typically don't even attempt to attain a high ac because of their role in the party, is the most ludacris explanation and reason for a change to a game mechanic that I have heard to date.

    .
    seriously? You just admitted that most people didnt even bother trying to get AC because it didnt work.... It was even more widespread than that.

    I'd conservatively say 80% of characters didnt invest anything into AC. 19% thought it did something and worked hard to get a mostly useless AC and 1% actually got their AC into the 80-100 range where it actually worked.

    It doesnt get much more broken than that.

    You were away for 2 freakin years and you want to walts back in, ignore 2 years of changes and content and start walking through quests again? Sorry. it doesnt work that way. Re-equip your toons like the rest of us. we got over this change 11+ months ago.
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  11. #31
    Community Member Ovrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kned225 View Post
    The old ac system was stupid. 99.9% of builds ignored it because it was absolutely irrelevant unless u gimped yourself. Thats not good

    Im not suggesting the new system is perfect, but at least it rewards players who put even a small amount of effort into defence. And its still possible to make a very tanky tin can who can survive in a crowd of baddies far better than most....in everything but ee
    Sadly the new AC system is also ignored by 99.9% of the players because no matter if you invest in it or not, you'll be hit most of the time.

    The other failure of that system is that it is highly dependent on your char level vs the mob's CR. Which means you'll always get hit in EE due to the grossly inflated CRs, and if you happen to run lower level content, the quest is even more easier because nothing will hit you.

    The old system was broken, but at least you saw a big difference if you invested in it, now everything is average.
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  12. #32
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    An AC of 80 is more than adequate for the Inspired Quarter and for Heroic levels 18,19,20.
    If you were getting pummeled it was because of something else.
    Were you being swarmed by mobs or blasted by spell casters? Do you have elemental resists?


    There are many facets to defense as others have mentioned here, including fortification and PPR.
    Try to maintain your AC, but supplement it with some of the other defense mechanisms.
    Avoid taking attacks from behind you or from the side if possible as this is where you can get in serious trouble fast.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    seriously? You just admitted that most people didnt even bother trying to get AC because it didnt work.... It was even more widespread than that.

    I'd conservatively say 80% of characters didnt invest anything into AC. 19% thought it did something and worked hard to get a mostly useless AC and 1% actually got their AC into the 80-100 range where it actually worked.

    It doesnt get much more broken than that.

    You were away for 2 freakin years and you want to walts back in, ignore 2 years of changes and content and start walking through quests again? Sorry. it doesnt work that way. Re-equip your toons like the rest of us. we got over this change 11+ months ago.

    I didn't admit that it didn't work. Far from it. AC did work. How many rangers and paladins could attain high ac? How many monks, monk/ranger builds with no shield could? Casters, as I believe they do now, rely on their spells along with some gear to mitigate damage, so no change there. I really doubt clerics are running around now with massive AC as there's no point.

    From what I see now, you're just plain going to get hit.

    And yes, I was certainly a little frustrated that I worked hard and put many hours, even years, into grinding gear that is completely obsolete and essentially useless.

  14. #34
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funny_looking_mole View Post
    In my opinion the changes to AC were wonderful, important and a much better change for the game (even if they take some getting used to understand). For the exact reasons you stated, AC only mattered for tank builds MAYBE 2% of the players and a build that was only wanted for 3-4 fights in the game (Lord of Blades, ToD, Hound, possibly another one) and in those cases the AC build made a difficult fight mostly trivial compared to a non-ac build. So in exchange for the god mode AC builds could get, we got a system where heavier armor protects everyone better (remember when everyone wore robes, even the high AC tanks?), where AC helps all builds out, not by a ton, but enough where a +4 AC on an item is a solid upgrade. And where building a tank takes more logic and skill than just farming titan 400 times for the chattering ring, and hunting for every +AC item you can find.
    As a counter point... my 200 run chattering ring now sits in the bank... my character who used to run all the content (back when cap was 20) with only 405 unbuffed hitpoints now does not even worry about AC. Half the time I forget to bother with barkskin. Why? Because, to my character, who used to be very AC dependent, AC is now irrelevant.

    While you claim that the AC changes were a good thing, most of my 6 man guild played characters with decent AC. We all felt the nerf pretty hard.

    Finally, there is no more logic and skill to building a tank now than before. Its just different gear and class combos to aquire.
    /sigh

  15. #35
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    seriously? You just admitted that most people didnt even bother trying to get AC because it didnt work.... It was even more widespread than that.

    I'd conservatively say 80% of characters didnt invest anything into AC. 19% thought it did something and worked hard to get a mostly useless AC and 1% actually got their AC into the 80-100 range where it actually worked.

    It doesnt get much more broken than that.

    You were away for 2 freakin years and you want to walts back in, ignore 2 years of changes and content and start walking through quests again? Sorry. it doesnt work that way. Re-equip your toons like the rest of us. we got over this change 11+ months ago.
    I agree that adapting to the changes will be necessary. But the change didn't help everyone. My main went from being an AC character to not even trying now. Yes I wear armor, but AC was nerfed so badly that unless I want to switch from being a ranger into being a fighter, I'll never be a tank again. Yes, I could tank Horo and Sully before. Now, I wouldn't bother. Just like I don't even take CE as a feat anymore.

    This AC is just a broken and there is still probably only 1% of the people who have enough AC to actually matter in difficult content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ovrad View Post
    Sadly the new AC system is also ignored by 99.9% of the players because no matter if you invest in it or not, you'll be hit most of the time.

    The other failure of that system is that it is highly dependent on your char level vs the mob's CR. Which means you'll always get hit in EE due to the grossly inflated CRs, and if you happen to run lower level content, the quest is even more easier because nothing will hit you.

    The old system was broken, but at least you saw a big difference if you invested in it, now everything is average.
    yep, the new system is just, meh...
    /sigh

  16. #36
    Community Member Avenging_Angel's Avatar
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    AC is pretty much irrelevant in any content that presents a little bit of challenge.
    I was running elite Blockade Buster (base level 13) with my monk27 who has something above 90 AC and I still got hit all the time.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avenging_Angel View Post
    AC is pretty much irrelevant in any content that presents a little bit of challenge.
    I was running elite Blockade Buster (base level 13) with my monk27 who has something above 90 AC and I still got hit all the time.
    And AC was broken before? Just wow. smh.

  18. #38
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    So are healers just heal bots now? Relegated back to their original position unable to cast offensive spells and spending massive amounts of gp on scrolls to try to keep the party alive?

  19. #39
    Community Member elraido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmooth69 View Post
    What other characters are super concerned with AC, outside of monks? Clerics? Barbs? Rangers? Palys?(with the exception of the intim/ac builds)

    To change an entire system, which wasn't broken to begin with, for the benefit of classes that typically don't even attempt to attain a high ac because of their role in the party, is the most ludacris explanation and reason for a change to a game mechanic that I have heard to date.

    I disagree with the 3-4 fights in game. Having made and played an intim fighter, in every quest I was croud control and one less person to heal. Paired with a couple of high dps guys, every quest was a breeze. Sure, I still had 36 str (at cap 16) and could still deal some damage, and no it was not quite on par with a pure dps build, but certainly not useless by any means.
    I agree. I had a paladin who could solo VoD, and Sins on elite with out even come close to dying...back when that was end game material. I couldn't deal massive amounts of DPS, but it was steady enough to where I didn't have an issue killing things.

    Now, I can have an AC of 175, a PPR of around 115, dodge of 5% (all my armor will allow), Ghostly, etc and I simply get destroyed in some EE content. It will take them a little while to damage me to the point where I will die but the thing is, I can't do nearly enough damage to kill a lot of things in a timely manner.

    I love my tank, I basically play him most of the time. I see his upsides (there some) but at the same time there are a LOT of downsides. You hit the nail on the head when you said, you could do damage and survive. There was a balance before. You traded damage output for AC/survivability. Now there is almost no reason to go AC. A monk has a higher survivability rate with the insane dodge numbers, decent ac/ppr, displacement/blur effects. My guy hits for around 100 base damage per hit....now compare that with almost any other class out there. It is horrible. Now look at my survivability in EE. It is the same as everyone else, for the most part.

    They implemented a law of diminishing returns on AC and PRR. There is a point where a tank doesn't really need to go any further. I personally feel that is around 120-140 AC...and that is only for EN or EH quests. Like others have mentioned there is no point in having AC in EE. It simply doesn't matter.
    Last edited by elraido; 11-15-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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  20. #40
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmooth69 View Post
    To change an entire system, which wasn't broken to begin with,...

    Zong!

    It was horribly broken!

    A meaninful AC, which means making any difference, was only possile for a tiny amount of builds, who needed huge amouts of grind and a heavy focus just on that. Then they got "Godmode On!", while the rest of the chars didnt give a flying sh.. about AC and ran around in their pyjamas, focusing on pure heaps of HPs as "defense".


    The system we have now is clunky, it has its flaws, but at least it works. Nowadays AC is a wrking defense for all Characters again. No more raising AC from 40 to 60 with regearing and planing, for literaly no, zero, nada effect in damage-taken.
    Last edited by Noctus; 11-15-2013 at 01:44 PM.
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