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  1. #41
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    But the answer is yes
    You can get to 60 evo and that's enough because it's mostly against reflex saves ( like druids earthquake is effective ) unlike hjealzors implosion against fort save ( my cleric 65 evo is wonky in some places ).

    Yes it's not easy button Shiradi ( aka jump around, cast 2 spells, stuff dies ) but it works.

    Old Zerkul's video but still fantastic
    Ghallanda

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I have very good reading comprehension (I don't know about many others in this thread).

    What I read is the OP asking if there is a way to be successful with straight Evocation, in his selected element, in Draconic Incarnation ED, in EE quests, without drinking a lot of mana pots. That is very clear and very specific. And then I see a lot of people making recommendations to use other things than straight Evocation (I don't know of any debuffs that are Evocation spells), or another element, etc.

    Instead of giving all this advice that doesn't actually answer the OP's question, those people should just simply say "No" or "I can't think of a way to do it".

    So your summation is completely inaccurate.
    I reread through the OP's thread too and it does seem like he just wants to blast lightning spells in EE. If he just wants to use his element in EE, he could use the Draconic abilities (lightning-based versions) and do OK with those. Also, I already offered using Solid Fog and Sunburst as debuffs and Sunburst is Evocation. Solid Fog is Conjuration but it helps with the absurdly high reflex saves a lot of EE mobs have. But yes, you can't just simply cast lightning spells through an EE reliably unless you prep your mobs in advance. That works fine in EH but EE is a different monster altogether.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I have very good reading comprehension (I don't know about many others in this thread).

    What I read is the OP asking if there is a way to be successful with straight Evocation, in his selected element, in Draconic Incarnation ED, in EE quests, without drinking a lot of mana pots. That is very clear and very specific. And then I see a lot of people making recommendations to use other things than straight Evocation (I don't know of any debuffs that are Evocation spells), or another element, etc.

    Instead of giving all this advice that doesn't actually answer the OP's question, those people should just simply say "No" or "I can't think of a way to do it".

    So your summation is completely inaccurate.
    Personally I think you need to work on those skills a little (or perhaps just actually READ the thread), as plenty of the advice has been strictly "evocation" based as well as Draconic... Not sure how someone with such good self proclaimed reading comprehension missed that. Perhaps your vision was effected by your self back patting?

    The OP does not want a real answer to his question, he wants everyone to console him and tell him he did his best and confirm that indeed, if he can't do it, it is actually impossible, as he suspected all along.

    Quote Originally Posted by maximus123123123 View Post
    You're talking about using magic missiles, chain missiles, ice storm...
    I'm talking about an Air Savant that wants to use her ELECTRIC SPELLS.
    It's not as though there aren't any...
    Why use everything else? Because an Air Savant that wants to use Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Ball Lightning, etc., is not viable. At least admit it...
    See?

    I say once again: should the hardest most challenging part of the game cater to a player that wants to spam the same 4 spells over and over, and apparently doesn't want to use any tactics at all, or even use passive advantages like debuff procs?
    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    You can't possibly design good gameplay if excitement unpredictability and unknowns are NOT ALLOWED because they confuse some players who want everything cut and dried and spelled out for them.

  4. #44
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    Here are three weapons you can use to help you out without pretending you're not an air savant:

    Electric Surge is the first. That is the most direct counter to evading mobs, because it's long range, has no save, builds to massive damage and is extremely efficient. It benefits directly from your being an Air Savant. The drawbacks are that it's slow acting and single target, but as one of the greatest boss killer spells you should know this one anyway, and can resort to it whenever necessary to beat mobs with great saves.

    Greater Shout is the second. Air savants get bonuses to sonic spells too, and while the damage on this spell is pretty low it is area of effect and targets the fortitude save, meaning that it can't be evaded. It will apply stacks of vulnerable from your savant core power, and if you can beat the targets' fortitude saves then it'll also daze them. More utility than nukage, but certainly an option when beset by pesky evaders. It doesn't cost much SP, either.

    Prismatic Spray is the third. Prismatic Spray isn't exactly a lightning spell (though it can roll an electric result), but it's a tool that belongs to all evokers. It's somewhat random what sort of effect you'll get when you use it...you might get more wasted evades: but it can roll fortitude based effects, will based effects, and as long as you're using it on a large group of targets you've got a decent chance that something will stick. If you can reliably beat a monster's weaker save types with your evocation DC then this spell is excellent at thinning groups of evading mobs. If you can't then it doesn't help much.

    Then there's save debuffing, as others have mentioned. This sure doesn't help the efficiency issue, but some of the spells you can use to this purpose are useful in their own right, so don't discount it completely. Solid Fog is very thematic for an air sorcerer and applies a hefty reflex save penalty (-5) without allowing the target any sort of roll to avoid it - no save, no SR check. It also slows those inside, helping to group them up for your nuke, and it grants a concealment miss chance that can't be negated by true seeing. It's a decent package of effects to help you drop a more effective chain lightning. Waves of Exhaustion is another option; it applies a -3 to reflex saves via exhaustion's dexterity reduction, it works on just about anything, lasts for absolutely ages, severely slows non-boss enemies, is area effect and allows no save. The downsides are that it's quite expensive to cast and requires a check against spell resistance.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I have very good reading comprehension (I don't know about many others in this thread).

    What I read is the OP asking if there is a way to be successful with straight Evocation, in his selected element, in Draconic Incarnation ED, in EE quests, without drinking a lot of mana pots. That is very clear and very specific. And then I see a lot of people making recommendations to use other things than straight Evocation (I don't know of any debuffs that are Evocation spells), or another element, etc.

    Instead of giving all this advice that doesn't actually answer the OP's question, those people should just simply say "No" or "I can't think of a way to do it".

    So your summation is completely inaccurate.
    Both of the debuff procs in question work on lightning spells. Lightning spells are basically all evocation, hence the evocation school augmentation can proc on them. Likewise, the other debuff is in draconic and only applies to electric spells. So, if he doesn't want to be slightly more efficient by opening with a MM, he can simply spam his electric spells to proc the debuffs. Each target hit by his SLAs will have a 27% chance (per hit), to get at least a -10 to its reflex save. The most powerful save debuffs available are by spamming evo spells. As such, he can basically spam the SLA electric loop and electric loop until his group of mobs are debuffed, and then chain lightning to his heart's content. He can give them -20 to their saves with nothing but electric spells. Assuming he builds for DCs (should be able to hit the low to mid 60s), that should virtually always land.

    You can make a spell spamming sorc in DI and be effective in EE. You can even solo EE quests with it. The first page even contains a link to a thread of someone doing it. It certainly isn't the most efficient build, and a shiradi spammer is probably more effective. But a DI Air Savant can certainly work in EE. Using debuffs doesn't require going outside of electric or evo.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    He had to leave the quest THREE times in order to get more mana.
    That means either the spell point pool for evocation casters needs to be increased three fold or the spell point costs for spells across the board need to be reduced three times over. I'm going to assume he's using maximized, heightened, empowered SLA's and even then he had to leave three times for more mana. Sounds like FAIL to me. I mean, the whole evocation system is completely borked to the point that either no one plays an evocation caster or must do so as an efficient shiradi with force spells. Sorry to burst the bubble of all those who claim it works just fine. Chugging endless spell point pots is not, IMO, a workable solution. And neither is leaving the quest three times or taking a long time to complete a quest by sticking to slow casting SLA's.

  7. #47
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    Or maybe hardest quest in the game shouldn't be soloable without using resources.

    60 against will and reflex, 65+ against fort kinda works.

    Or jump on Shiradi bandwagon, splash 2 fvs and keep pressing Force Missiles, Magic Missile and Chain Missile if you want to solo EEs.
    Ghallanda

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Or maybe hardest quest in the game shouldn't be soloable without using resources.

    60 against will and reflex, 65+ against fort kinda works.

    Or jump on Shiradi bandwagon, splash 2 fvs and keep pressing Force Missiles, Magic Missile and Chain Missile if you want to solo EEs.
    The more people continue to claim evocation sorcs are just fine without shiradi, the more the devs will overlook this very weak archetype and the more people will continue to jump on the Shiradi bandwagon....because it WORKS ! It works the way evocation casters were supposed to work.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by maximus123123123 View Post
    The more people continue to claim evocation sorcs are just fine without shiradi, the more the devs will overlook this very weak archetype and the more people will continue to jump on the Shiradi bandwagon....because it WORKS ! It works the way evocation casters were supposed to work.
    Wow ... seriously if you don't think evocation sorc's are good than you just don't know how to play or you are just lazy.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow View Post
    Wow ... seriously if you don't think evocation sorc's are good than you just don't know how to play or you are just lazy.
    Or maybe it is because I know how to play that I can see that evocation is seriously lacking.

    Sure a pure evocation Sorc can outkill everything on the map while in Draconic Incarnation, but they will have to continually chug spell point pots to keep up. Therein is the problem and the reason Shiradi is the only way to go for those of us who cannot afford to use 20+ spell point pots per quest.

  11. #51
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    There is a way to make non-Shiradi evocation casting viable: Give SLA's a viable cooldown (like 1-2 seconds rather than the current 5+ seconds) and make the spell point free to cast. That's basically what a Shiradi sorc is and why it actually WORKS.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by maximus123123123 View Post
    Or maybe it is because I know how to play that I can see that evocation is seriously lacking.

    Sure a pure evocation Sorc can outkill everything on the map while in Draconic Incarnation, but they will have to continually chug spell point pots to keep up. Therein is the problem and the reason Shiradi is the only way to go for those of us who cannot afford to use 20+ spell point pots per quest.
    Interesting I usually don't have to pot when I solo and the only quests I actually have to drink pots in, in a group is ee wgu, and only 1 or 2 cause I'm to lazy to run back and shrine.

  13. #53
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    I have no problem with evocation remaining as is. It is extremely weak IMO, because to fully take advantage of it, you'd run out of spell points super fast. But to each his own I guess.

    I definitely prefer Shiradi for the efficiency and effectiveness it provides and would have preferred that pure evocation was more along those lines. But the consensus being that it's just fine, so be it...

    Also, I really love how those opposed to Shiradi always use the word "Spam" in their arguments: as in "Spam mm, fm, cm..."
    As though cc casters don't spam cc spells, monks don't spam fist swings, melee don't spam sword swings, archers don't spam arrows, and healers don't spam heals....

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by maximus123123123 View Post
    I have no problem with evocation remaining as is. It is extremely weak IMO, because to fully take advantage of it, you'd run out of spell points super fast. But to each his own I guess.

    I definitely prefer Shiradi for the efficiency and effectiveness it provides and would have preferred that pure evocation was more along those lines. But the consensus being that it's just fine, so be it...

    Also, I really love how those opposed to Shiradi always use the word "Spam" in their arguments: as in "Spam mm, fm, cm..."
    As though cc casters don't spam cc spells, monks don't spam fist swings, melee don't spam sword swings, archers don't spam arrows, and healers don't spam heals....
    Hi Welcome

    term "spam heals" is widely used on these forums, CC casting spams... less often, but as well. Monks, meeles and archers obviously dont spam. I just assume that english is not your prime language, so no biggie. I am not native english speaker as well and there will be a handfull of grammar errors in this post.

    I read all the thread till this post.
    You asked question. The question was answered multiple times and except for one or two ppl, everyone told you: yes, it is possible to make air savant work in EE.
    People gave you multiple advices on how to prepare you enemies via electric evocation. Or via sonic evocation. Or via nonelectric evocation. Or via Conjuration, that costs next to nothing. Or via Necromancy. If you are unwilling to take at least some of these advices, then the problem is not your character - it is in you. You simply cannot treat EE and EH equally. No one does.
    You were also given a video (the fact that you are unhappy with said person reentering shows to me, that you either never ran EE WGU and thus have no idea what are you talking about, or that you are simply unwilling to listen) of the hardest EE quest in the game soloed by air savant.

    Only advice left here to say is:
    Learn to use air savant in EE content (from this thread)
    OR
    Switch to different element - air is the harder to master
    OR
    Go Shiradi.

    Air savant requires most skill ad brain.
    Shiradi least. Shiradi is, in fact, not that much powerfull - it is just that much easier to learn, that why it is so popular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    Air savant requires most skill ad brain.
    Shiradi least. Shiradi is, in fact, not that much powerfull - it is just that much easier to learn, that why it is so popular.
    Shiradi is popular because it works the way evocation ought to work. That is, it is effective while being efficient at the same time.
    An Air Savant takes no more brains to play than a Shiradi, either can be played intelligently or with stupidity. The difference is, the smarter players go Shiradi because they realize how ineffectual any other kind of evocation is. But as I said, to each his own and if you prefer to be ineffectual or constantly drink pots, than enjoy...cheers !

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    Quote Originally Posted by maximus123123123 View Post
    Shiradi is popular because it works the way evocation ought to work. That is, it is effective while being efficient at the same time.
    An Air Savant takes no more brains to play than a Shiradi, either can be played intelligently or with stupidity. The difference is, the smarter players go Shiradi because they realize how ineffectual any other kind of evocation is. But as I said, to each his own and if you prefer to be ineffectual or constantly drink pots, than enjoy...cheers !
    I have tried Shiradi and High DC (~60DC) Evoc Water Savant in EE quests and I prefer Draconic by far.
    My SLA Cold ray does 1k to 2k damage for 2SP. It hits almost all the time. Frost lance has Fort save and does tons of damage. Real reason why you want high DC is for energy burst. I have seen it do 5 digit damage to everything around me.

    Dragon breath, Enegry Burst.. then if anything is alive polar ray or cold ray. If you see one or two mobs... hit them with frost lance and cold ray... dead and dead.

    When you run into cold immunes, RUIN and disintergrate
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by maximus123123123 View Post
    Shiradi is popular because it works the way evocation ought to work. That is, it is effective while being efficient at the same time.
    An Air Savant takes no more brains to play than a Shiradi, either can be played intelligently or with stupidity. The difference is, the smarter players go Shiradi because they realize how ineffectual any other kind of evocation is. But as I said, to each his own and if you prefer to be ineffectual or constantly drink pots, than enjoy...cheers !
    I completely disagree. Btw, my main is an Air savant right now :-)

    Simple nuking without much thinking is the same as simple meeling by meeles. Because, lets face it, if I play meele, iI just wanna swing my big blade in their faces right? I dont want to cast healing spells onto myself as well! (cocoon).

    If you are really thinking like that, then i completey agree, that the only way for you to complete harder EE quests, without DDO store, on sorc is to go shiradi.
    Its simple and it doesnt require thinking That why it is so popular. Enjoy.

    Or... learn. Most of the best material is right in this thread.

  18. #58
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    As I said, if the consensus is that evocation casting is good EXACTLY as it is and needs no changes, then I'm all for that.
    I won't be switching out of Shiradi with a FvS splash any time soon though unless it gets the nerf bat.

    Although I've changed my position, I have not changed my opinion that evocation casting in DI would be far better if it were more along the lines of Shiradi. So, for example, giving the SLA's 1-2 second cooldowns instead of the current 5+ seconds and reducing the spell point cost to 0 or at most 1 or 2 spell points.

    But apparently evocation is perfect as it is and needs absolutely no tweaking. I'm fine with that as I don't plan on switching back to one of them from Shiradi and will even continue playing my sorc so long as the only (IMO) viable evocation option remains unchanged.

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    I would just add, however, that the very best players choose Shiradi casters with at least two lvls of FvS for a reason. At little to no cost you can use magic missiles and force missiles all day and dip into your spell pool occasionally for other things like buffs, recon, ice storms, etc.

    This is the way (again IMHO) evocation casting should be.
    Last edited by maximus123123123; 12-06-2013 at 06:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miow View Post
    I think the op wants to know if you can achieve and maintain a great working dc with evocation spells without having to resort to debuffing everything first. At least that is what I'm understanding.
    The OP doesn't want to "know" anything. He made up his mind before he every posted anything here. It doesn't matter how many helpful suggestions the community gives him, he'll always come back with the same old "but but but" lines.

    Let the OP cry in the corner about his "electric" "air savant" sorc while the rest of us happily twist, debuff, and kill cr ap.
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