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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamkatt View Post
    Hmmmmm Munch cher is the future?
    She's probably getting a little old to be in anyone's future.

  2. #42
    Community Member Draxis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    I play a high dps artie (3 ranger past lives, caster lives, using needle in fury, deadly +10, +15 seeker, etc) and, yes, manyshot in fury out dps's arties by quite a large margin. I can produce about 18k in 6 seconds using boulder toss (4-8k), ruin (4-8k), free rune arm (1.2-2k), endless fullisade + adrenaline (~6-8k; each adrenaline shot is 1.5-2.5k X 2-3), but bow furyshots = 20-40k, maybe more. Then the bow-user switches to twf/thf, which also out dps's arties and waits for manishot to come back.

    I like arties, though. Loads of fun, and it's interesting to tweak their gear set ups to produce higher dps.
    I love my artie - He consistently leads on kill counts over even sorcs in ee. Only rangers and monks sometimes give him a run for his money. Which is probably more a testament to his rate of attack than actual dps, but w/e.

    But I do think Fury + Manyshot is a bit OP... And I've got this sinking bad feeling that bringing the nerf-hammer down on rangers, Turbine will swing wildly and hit Artis with a glancing blow by making Fury not work for ANY ranged attack.

    Honestly I'd love to see Fury + ranged remain, but just omit it from being used with Manyshots, or have a decreasing rate of proc per shot, like it does with an Arti's normal repeater attack volley now.

  3. #43
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    IMO this is the main issue with ranged combat:

    Outside of manyshot bow combat is terrible DPS and Manyshot is too easy for a melee focused rangers to get allowing them to easily use it despite being a melee character.

    So any time ranged combat in general gets a boost those melee builds that exploit their free access to manyshot get more powerful...the devs are afraid of making that build too powerful.

    Easy Fix: Make Rangers like they are in PnP so they have to choose a combat style at Lvl 1 so they get Melee OR Ranged feats for free not both.

    This way Manyshot is only obtainable through heavy feat investment and the devs are free to tweak it and other ranged abilities.

    As for the people saying "ranged combatants don't get damaged" I'm sorry but thats BS. Melee characters can dodge just as many attacks...well at least I can...if you cant that's a you issue not a DDO issue.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 11-14-2013 at 03:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  4. #44
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Lol, you might miss that there are basically 100 times more Pinion wielding toons in pyjamas than last year, when being a monkcher was a novelty.
    Bards, fighters, barbarians, rangers, free Pinions for everybody, oh joy ! DDO is hard.
    Ghallanda

  5. #45
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    As for the people saying "ranged combatants don't get damaged" I'm sorry but thats BS. Melee characters can dodge just as many attacks...well at least I can...if you cant that's a you issue not a DDO issue.
    You're doing ranged wrong... Don't stand next to the monsters and poke them with the bow. Use the string to launch the arrows and you can stand further back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  6. #46
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Easy Fix: Make Rangers like they are in PnP so they have to choose a combat style at Lvl 1 so they get Melee OR Ranged feats for free not both.
    The beauty of DDO is the variety of builds, saying a ranger must either be ranged or melee only goes against this.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    NOW you're complaining about archery in DDO? After all the love its gotten? Seriously.

    I had been trying to make a pure archer work in DDO almost since I began play. It was an embarrassment. I took my ranger into Tower of Despair maybe 4 times, and felt guilty about it every time. He languished. Then we got Ten Thousand Stars, and I tried that out, and WOW! did things get better, although it required a fair bit of tweaking and sacrifice to stay 100% ranged. It was a big improvement over the old guard, but still often felt kind of weak. Not embarrassingly so, but certainly not a character I'd look to bring into tough content except with understanding guildies.

    Then we got the enhancement pass of u19 and everything came together! It got all the tools it needed to complete the package.

    What more could you want on an archer besides:
    • Slayer Arrows
    • Pin (or Leg Shot)
    • Sniper Shot
    • Adrenaline
    • Paralyzing Arrows
    • Metalline Arrows
    • Morphic Arrows
    • Improved Shock Arrows
    • Ten Thousand Stars
    • Manyshot
    • Improved Precise Shot
    • Archer's Focus
    • free Pinion

    Really! I'd like to know what else you want. I could use some more +5 tomes, and maybe another 6 build points, but that's mostly to also satisfy my trapping fetish. Archers have never had it so good in DDO, and they have it pretty damn good now.
    What they want is equal attack speed. Simple really. As to the above things, well melee has gained many a bell and whistle too. As for the justification, how about because it is supposed to be the same. As to crabs in a barrel, stop being one and competing AGAINST you fellow gamers on things not unreasonable to ask.

    Edit-As to manyshot..it isn't supposed to be a feat at all. It represents putting multiple arrows on a string as a standard action. It is supposed to come with hit penalties. By all means add those..so long as you fix ranged attack rate and..the strafe/juke garbage that allows mobs to sidestep arrows as though they were never fired. That function combined with slower attack rate is VERY palpable on a ranged.

    As to kiting..who hasn't noticed mobs have run speeds higher than your own pretty much across the board? Even zombies and oozes move much much faster than they used too.
    Last edited by woodchuckslayer; 11-14-2013 at 03:37 PM. Reason: addition

  8. #48
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    The beauty of DDO is the variety of builds, saying a ranger must either be ranged or melee only goes against this.
    CHOICES cause build variety rangers don't have to choose so in general their all pretty much the same unless you multi-class...making them choose between ranged and melee...gives you 2 build choices instead of 1 instantly doublking the amount of different builds. I also said if this is done it will give the devs a changed to improve ranged combat and rangers in general since te fear of the "I do it all" rangers getting too powerful is gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    You're doing ranged wrong... Don't stand next to the monsters and poke them with the bow. Use the string to launch the arrows and you can stand further back.
    Lol that gave me a really funny picture in my head of a guy notching a bow that charging a heavily armored dude...I don;t know why...

    Anyways in my experience distance is irrelevant...I mean sure I can shoot a beholder from 100ft away if I was in a flat plain or other similar open area but first off the beholder can still disintegrate me just as well as the fighter bashing its face in and alot of ranged abilities require you to be in PBS range and very few dungeons actually afford you the space to be out of PBS range even if you wanted to.

    Which PBS is conveniently the range of alot of powerful enemy abilities.

    Beyond that the devs have seen fit to punish ranged combatants for moving by making alot of abilities require you to stay put whilst the melees can fly around like mad with little to no penalty (-4 to-hit is fairly irrelevant) now if they made Shot on the Run remove these "must not move" requirements it could make for some interesting builds...not required especially since its expensive but would make the feat slightly more attractive.

    Final Nail in the Coffin: Sorcerors...their ranged too and do way more DPS than archers they get hurt just fine or you wouldn't see so many people going WF/BF or Palemaster to get some much needed survivability.

    Also this vvvvv

    Quote Originally Posted by woodchuckslayer View Post
    As to kiting..who hasn't noticed mobs have run speeds higher than your own pretty much across the board? Even zombies and oozes move much much faster than they used too.
    Being in combat also applies a debuff that lowers movement speed.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 11-14-2013 at 03:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  9. #49
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Beyond that the devs have seen fit to punish ranged combatants for moving by making alot of abilities require you to stay put whilst the melees can fly around like mad with little to no penalty (-4 to-hit is fairly irrelevant) now if they made Shot on the Run remove these "must not move" requirements it could make for some interesting builds...not required especially since its expensive but would make the feat slightly more attractive.
    Are you actually saying that one of the negatives with ranged is that it's easier to kite as a melee?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  10. #50
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Are you actually saying that one of the negatives with ranged is that it's easier to kite as a melee?
    No I said melee have ZERO penalties for moving whilst in combat (except I think a hide/ms bonus rogue assassins get for staying still) whereas ranged combatatnts get a bunch of penalties completely negating any advantage the range grants them (which is only a minor bonus, so stop pretending its a big deal)

    I also said I'd like to see Shot on the Run remove those penalties its still an expensive feat but would be worth it to some people instead of completely useless

    As for manyshot I could care less if its the best burst DPS in the game thats nice but you may as well go make a sandwich whilst it cools down because you attack so slowly its just plain boring I'd rather see manyshot go away and see its burst DPS spread out as a general increase to ROF.

    Any Melee worth their salt should know how to strafe,jump,etc. around attacks without moving out of their personal attack range whilst dodging alot of attacks. If you don't do that well that's your choice but you can't say Melees CANT dodge damage it just takes a bit more skill than a ranged character.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 11-15-2013 at 02:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  11. #51
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    No I said melee have ZERO penalties for moving whilst in combat
    The penalty for moving while attacking is -4. This can be overcome if you have a base Dex of 13 and take the feats Dodge, then Mobility, the Spring Attack.

    The -4 penalty can easily be checked by watching your combat log at a training dummy.

  12. #52
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    The penalty for moving while attacking is -4. This can be overcome if you have a base Dex of 13 and take the feats Dodge, then Mobility, the Spring Attack.

    The -4 penalty can easily be checked by watching your combat log at a training dummy.
    Yes like I said zero penalty...-4 to hit is irrelevant and both ranged and melee get this penalty so its a moot point whereas if you look into various ranged abilities alot of them say things like must not move whilst using this ability or must remain still for 6 seconds to gain a stack up to x amount of stacks.

    Oh and I forgot to mention the HUGE nerf that no one seems to be bothered by that Manyshot procs a -100% doubleshot reduction making the post manyshot ranged DPS of a bow even less once again making manyshot more attractive to people who only use a bow for manyshot than melee than to actual bow users
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 11-15-2013 at 04:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  13. #53
    Community Member Blayster's Avatar
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    I've never been happier with my ranger. They even reduced the cost of some stuffs in the AA tree, and now I can have extra stuff. Pinion has a delicious DPS. Shiradi is fun; sneak and pin the enemy before it gets the chance to move, or if you are already kiting it, make it dance! If there are several, put Improved Precise Shot on, and with some practice you can hit 5 or 6 enemies in a single shot, sometimes paralysing 3 of them (quite unusual in EE though...). If in addition to all of this I could hit like a Barbarian it wouldn't be fun anymore. On that notice, just bear in mind the combo for bosses: Aimed Shot few times (to get +15 stack) + Damage Boost + Manyshots + Adrenaline + Slayer Arrow. Of course you can do that only once per Manyshots.

  14. #54
    Community Member schelsullivan's Avatar
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    Even with the recent nerf/correction to doubleshot, This pure ranger is still out DPSing almost any melee class I pug with. (not that I dont melee at times too). In truth I seem to be most consistently out DPSed by Rogues. Am not happy that doubleshot feat is all but worthless now, but I still feeling lots of love since the enhancement pass.
    Argonnessen - Glibb Bonefish, Lev 28 pure Elf Ranger

  15. #55
    Community Member Golddragon87's Avatar
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    I think ranged combatants are in a good place right now. Kiting is still a viable tactic especially if you use the sprint action boost the ranger has or have the monk running speed. I wish my melee had the option to run away and still DPS. Easiest fix would be to put Manyshot and 10K stars on the same timer for those worried about the Monkcher invasion of the servers. Me I do not care as they are on my team.
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  16. #56
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddragon87 View Post
    I think ranged combatants are in a good place right now. Kiting is still a viable tactic especially if you use the sprint action boost the ranger has or have the monk running speed. I wish my melee had the option to run away and still DPS. Easiest fix would be to put Manyshot and 10K stars on the same timer for those worried about the Monkcher invasion of the servers. Me I do not care as they are on my team.
    Kiting is also a good way to get blacklisted it only really works in a group that knows your going to do it and has either been built to work with it or can adapt very well to the changing situations...IOW not if your PUG...at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  17. #57
    Community Member Golddragon87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Kiting is also a good way to get blacklisted it only really works in a group that knows your going to do it and has either been built to work with it or can adapt very well to the changing situations...IOW not if your PUG...at all.
    So what your saying is....People still PUG?

    Mind. Blown.
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  18. #58
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddragon87 View Post
    So what your saying is....People still PUG?

    Mind. Blown.
    I can't argue with that 90% of my play is with static groups but ones as understanding/accepting of "flavour builds" as mine are not very common in my experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Anyways in my experience distance is irrelevant...I mean sure I can shoot a beholder from 100ft away if I was in a flat plain or other similar open area but first off the beholder can still disintegrate me just as well as the fighter bashing its face in and alot of ranged abilities require you to be in PBS range and very few dungeons actually afford you the space to be out of PBS range even if you wanted to.

    Which PBS is conveniently the range of alot of powerful enemy abilities.

    Beyond that the devs have seen fit to punish ranged combatants for moving by making alot of abilities require you to stay put whilst the melees can fly around like mad with little to no penalty (-4 to-hit is fairly irrelevant) now if they made Shot on the Run remove these "must not move" requirements it could make for some interesting builds...not required especially since its expensive but would make the feat slightly more attractive.
    first up i have a lvl23 mechanic/assassin, not a bow user, so there may be some things i'm not fully aware of when it comes to bows in ranged combat. that said i am of course heavily ranged focused with an even bigger incentive to stay in PBS range than an archer has, namely the vast bulk of my DPS comes from my sneak attacks. i also have more melee chars than any other type. so, now you know where i am coming from.

    i do find being at range, even PBS range makes a massive difference to my survivability. sure i can dodge many attacks as a melee, something i like to call playing the off-tank where you are actively avoiding aggro and being hit normally due to being a glass cannon. however out at range, even PBS range you have a massive edge on any off-tank by virtue of starting out 1 step ahead of the mobs when they turn your way. so it's not that melees can't avoid damage, or that ranged makes you safe, but in my experience ranged does most certainly make you safer. it is a very clear advantage, and as you mention it is one casters also enjoy.

    as for the restrictions on movement, i am aware of precise shot with the twinned archers focus that requires you to stand still. there might be other archer based things but that's all i have on my rogue to keep me still. most of the time i run with improved precise shot on to hit more than 1 mob at a time, which is 100% damage bonus for every extra mob you hit as opposed to a 30% bonus to base damage only. so for me the only time i'm actually stood still is during a boss fight when there is no trash to mop up. it's not had a major affect on my play and i am more often than no darting about the battle trying to line up the best shots, avoiding any mobs i might have accidentally got aggro from but don't feel the need to kill right now and just enjoying being a little halfling kicking up a storm whilst getting away with murder. it seems like my halfling has teflon coated shoulders in that regard

    so i'm afraid i just don't agree with you. sure ranged isn't safe, and sure melees can avoid a ton of damage with an active playstyle, but ranged is certainly safer than melee.

    does that mean i'm against ranged getting a buff? no, but i do believe ranged chars should be 1 step behind melee due to their inherent safety advantage. as for casters, well their finite well of resources is their balancing factor. sure in many quests they can nuke the mobs from orbit, but at other times they do have to hold a bit back to get between shrines (pot junkies excluded of course )

    i don't think us ranged players have it bad at the moment. there is a reason i am focusing on my rogue over my melees and casters right now, he is just a metric ton of fun to play, especially when i have to mix the ranged with sneaking into melee range for an assassinate.
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  20. #60
    Community Member Blayster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    well their finite well of resources is their balancing factor. sure in many quests they can nuke the mobs from orbit
    With "some quests" you mean like 98% of the heroic content and at least 60% of the Epic content, right? And even with that I find the power of spellcasters vs melees VERY disproportional. Instant death is far too powerful: its ranged, takes a second and avoids all the damage and threat that that monster could ever generate. Turbine will never nerf it though.

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