Last edited by Ryiah; 11-13-2013 at 06:45 PM. Reason: Found another small stack in my inventory. Stupid things need to auto-stack.
Ryiah | Raeyah | ReikaraToy Soldiers
"Not really a bad thing either because honestly those who "want it NOW" are the same ones who complain the loudest that there is "nothing to do" and "no end game"."
There's nothing rational about this post, it's all about shaming and talking down to people who disagree.
My view: none of the groups should be penalized for how they play. Honestly, my feelings on ETR (which I've expressed several times since it was proposed) is that it should be at least as easy to do as gather 20 epic tokens of the 12 for a HTR, because it's the only real endgame we have right now, and Turbine should be doing everything in their power to keep people playing, and keep people relatively happy. Throwing this enormous roadblock in the way of the endgame is in direct opposition to that strategy, and is most severe for the players who are most likely to ETR: the hardcore gamers who are going to look at those minor bonuses in their triple-stacked form, and decide they are worth grinding through almost 20 million XP, possibly multiple times.
How many casual gamers are going to ETR repeatedly? I'll point out that it's the really hardcore group that have Completionist characters, that you would see TRing every week or so, that have stacked up triple lives for the classes that yield worthwhile benefits, not the casual folks. So why throw the roadblock down in front of the group most likely to be using the system, and most in need of some semblance of an endgame?
Mind you, I don't count myself among the hardcore, though I'm farther toward that end of the scale than the other, albeit closer to the middle these days, after seeing so much of the effort I put into optimizing my characters wiped away by idiotic implementations from Turbine. I've done some TRing, but not a ton, and am not sure I'll do much ETR, especially with the extra grind back to cap due to not having quest XP reset for first time bonuses. If anything, I'll probably ETR then HTR some characters, and run 1-28 on them.
As for comparing ETR and HTR, there are some major differences:
- The bonuses on HTR, while smallish, tend to almost all provide a 5% bonus to something (+1 to spell DCs, +5% healing amp), shore up a glaring weakness (+2 damage on ranged damage when archery was way behind melee), while many of the ETR abilities are worth less than a 5% increase (+1 attack, +3 PRR).
- There is a much wider variety of content 1-20 than there is 20-28, and it can be fun running back through some of that. There are more quests and more explorer zones.
- You can set your own pace relatively easily for an HTR: Heroic Elite is relatively much easier than Epic Elite, and therefore Bravery streaking is easier, and faster. And you don't have a second mechanic producing a significant bottleneck on your time from start to cap and back to start. For heroic hearts, you can pick up the tokens on alts, or run 20-30 quests (depending on which ones and difficulty) in a few days (and you may select any of the Eberron-side quests that you enjoy/feel most comfortable running), whereas for the ETR you are looking at weeks of time spent running quests to accumulate CoV for the TR.
- Grinding out minor abilities for 4.3 million XP with a reasonable option of running a Bravery streak from start to finish is less arduous than grinding out minor abilities for 6.6 million XP, particularly with an elite streak rather difficult to maintain (and not just because Epic Elite is harder than Heroic Elite, but also because of the questing XP mechanics at epic levels, it's very difficult to get a Bravery-level group together for many quests). And that will be even more arduous when you can't even rely on a Hard streak or first time completion bonuses.
- Small bonuses in heroic content have some impact where monsters have a few hundred HP until you hit around level 18, when they jump to a few thousand, and reasonable saves, and most have achievable DCs for most characters, but those same small bonuses are much less significant in epic content where even the trash has tens of thousands of HP, saves that require basically every bonus you can find and strict devotion to the relevant ability score, and DCs in the 70s, which similarly requires an incredible amount of devotion (and is absolutely unachievable for some characters). Now, having HTR bonuses be semi-insignificant in Epic content is one thing, but having ETR bonuses be semi-insignificant in Epic content is an entirely different one.
- None of the ETR bonuses are comparable to the Heroic bonuses to save DCs for spells or tactical feats, which are highly relevant from 1-28. None of the ETR bonuses are comparable to Completionist. A 3% reduction in cooldown for spells for 6.6 million XP? That's going to have zero effect on all but a few spells (Power Words and Symbols). Anything with a cooldown of less than about 34 seconds (read: almost ever spell) is going to gain zero benefit from 1 past life of Arcane Alacrity. Do any of the heroic PLs do nothing for you before you stack them?
ETR should be harder to get than HTR, simply because a HTR is something that you start gaining tokens for at 20, which is also the point at which you can do it. A ETR on th eother hand is done at 28 (or 30 in an update or 2), while you start getting commendations at 20.
As fpr grinding, its ok to grind, as long as it doesnt make you miserable. If it does, you probably shouldnt be doing it.
Dystopia = utopia achieved
Actually, they may have increased it. Now, in addition to needing to run in off-destinies to unlock adjacent ones (3-4 levels in a destiny), for fate points(can stop at totals divisible by 3, or as soon as you hit level 5 in a destiny), and twists (can stop as soon as you've unlocked the twist you want, which may be as little as 1 or two ranks into the destiny), you have to run destinies in a particular sphere all the way to maximum XP achievable, which may be okay if you want the PL for a sphere that contains your favorite destiny, but if you want one from another sphere (the divine PLs are very attractive for characters in all 3 other spheres) you now have to spend more time in off-destinies.2nd, they've reduced the relative amount of time you're running in off-Destinies. You'll very quickly cap your off-EDs, and be able to play at cap in your ON destiny while grinding your free Heart. This makes sense, it's what we've asked for, and still satisfies point 1.They achieved this to a decree by expanding the range for which characters can run quests and group together in epic levels without hurting their XP.
3rd, by slowing down the TR train, the disparity between Epic 1 and Epic 8 (soon 10) decreases. Right now LFMs/PUGs suffer at endgame because of the 6Mxp chasm between Epic characters. As more characters clump up at 28(30), the LFM panel gets healthier. Granted, endgame play still needs work in the form of Raids (or other, new, endgame play mechanics), Loot, Fun in general. Let's look at what they do in the next 6mo and see if it attempts to address this.This is probably the only point I agree with being a really good move on Turbine's part.
4th, EPL feats don't require a feat slot. What we asked for - Check. EPL feats are not so OP that they contribute to the hated power creep. What we asked for - Check. EPL feats stack in a really meaningful way. What we asked for - Check.Compare the value of the CoV trade "goodies" with the value of epic augments from The Twelve (prior to augments being purchasable in the DDO Store). They're pitiful! They're not a reason to pick up CoVs. They're hardly even worth mentioning.
5th, WHILE satisfying the needs of Reincarnation, the new currency ALSO grants benefits to players with no intention or desire to ER/ITR, in the form of CoV Trader goodies. We didn't ask for this, but it's a great side effect and certainly nothing to complain about. Yes, the rewards could use a tweak here and there, but all-in-all a pretty nice 1st blush.
Well as my buddy said in party chat when we spoke about gathering valor: [Party] xxx: 10-20 days at cap without a real end game... oh boy
Except that EDxp never resets, ever. So once you've capped each sphere, you never have to run in those EDs you don't enjoy ever again. You can remain in On-Destinies forever while grinding the heart you need for your next Reinc.Originally Posted by re:Time Spent in Off Destinies
Except that alone was not enough. Clumping players at cap is good. You can't argue that.Originally Posted by re:Healthier LFMs
As I said, they're not great, but they ARE worth mentioning. Because they may not have value to YOU doesn't mean they have no value to anyone. I'm hopeful that the list of Trade-ins will expand.Originally Posted by re:Side effect benefit of gaining CoV
Originally Posted by Towrn
Clearly, you don't understand the karma system.
Except that EDxp never resets, ever. So once you've capped each sphere, you never have to run in those EDs you don't enjoy ever again. You can remain in On-Destinies forever while grinding the heart you need for your next Reinc.
No it isn't. When the cap was 20, it was okay, because there were things to do at cap, but it still meant there were too few people in the mid-levels, which makes leveling slower (especially for more casual players), and causes a lot of content to go unplayed. When was the last time you saw a group run Shroud for XP? ToD? VoD? Hound? Abbot? Titan? When the cap was 20 it was almost impossible to get 12 people together for a Titan run.Except that alone was not enough. Clumping players at cap is good. You can't argue that.
Plus, a lot of the stuff to do over level 24 requires the Shadowfell expansion, which was not especially popular.
Uh..have you looked at them? You can spend 2 or 3 Epic Hard completions for a potion that lasts 10 minutes and isn't any better than the spell enhancement pots you can purchase for plat at vendors around Stormreach. Or you can buy +2 attack and damage for half a quest after running 2 or 3 other quests. That's both a very steep cost, and a rather insignificant bonus. If it cost 1 or 2 CoV per potion, then they might be worth acknowledging as being about on-par with Yugo pots in terms of cost vs. reward (for the melee ones...the spell enhancement ones are a complete waste).As I said, they're not great, but they ARE worth mentioning. Because they may not have value to YOU doesn't mean they have no value to anyone. I'm hopeful that the list of Trade-ins will expand.
going by the link I was provided with http://ddowiki.com/page/Commendation_of_Valor and going by quests listed in wiki that can be run on epic using the hard table, it is in fact less Comms earned by the time you hit level 28. even if you avoid ransack and run each quest twice only from 20-28 it still isn't enough by a long shot. I didn't count raids because I have no idea if Comms are in raid end reward lists. even if they are, its still not enough.
this is NOT what we were led to believe and I do apologize for saying that there would be enough Comms if you one and done on hard. I was going by the info I read about on Lamma threads, including by devs such as
[QUOTE=Vargouille;5155148]The numbers were not determined under any assumption of only running level 26 quests. They were calculated from how much XP you need for each Epic Level and how many quests you would play at each of those levels, and how many Comms you get at that level. My earlier examples for Commendations awarded at level 26 were just that, examples, not the assumption of how you are playing from 20->28.
There was some consideration for various other things, such as non-end-reward quests, wilderness areas, etc.
[QUOTE=Vargouille;5152374]Yes, that's the thinking behind these numbers. Running on Epic Hard can earn you a heart for free on each Epic Reincarnation cycle. If you level entirely up on Epic Elite, you'll have your heart before you are level 28.
as you can see, we were told one thing and in fact turns out to be something totally different. i didn't feel like scrolling through hundreds of pages to find the math that was figured out, but i did see it somewhere. I would say we need a dev response to this now. again, I apologize and I stand behind the backs of the mobs ranting about not enough Comms earned in quests.
Gary Gygax quotes
The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.
There is no winning or losing, but rather the value is in the experience of imagining yourself as a character in whatever genre you are involved in, whether its a fantasy game, the Wild West, secret agents or whatever else. You get to sort of vicariously experience those things.
Role-playing isn't storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, its not a game.
When AI approximates Machine Intelligence, than many online and computer run RPGs will move toward actual RPG activity. Nonetheless, that will not replace the experience of "being there" anymore than seeing a theatrical motion picture can replace the stage play.
The secret we should never let the game masters know is that they don't need any rules.
A) You've been here long enough to know that what the devs say and we actually see are very rarely the same thing. Who knows what caused the disparity? Maybe they did the calculations without XP shrines, tomes, pots, voice, or optionals, and before they adjusted epic XP for longer quests? Maybe they left off a 0 or moved a decimal? Maybe that was all just window dressing to try and distract people from the fact that they really want people buying the hearts, rather than earning them?
B) There have been literally over a dozen threads in the New Posts since u20 went live describing the XP:CoV ratio in practice, and two or three that have broken down the math in the OP. Even without reading those, however, you can look at how fast you're leveling and compare it to how many CoV you're earning and gauge whether you'll be anywhere near a heart when you hit cap.
But I expect a poor example of a forum troll such as yourself to not have a basic grasp of 1st grade level lingo.
Is it any wonder you seem to lack brain cells when you enjoy getting dragged around in the dirt?
The ultimate point is that people are rightfully angry at turbine, and it is NOT okay for you and others to be so derisive towards reasonable anger and criticisms. It's not going to earn you brownie points with turbine so that you can get more loot, or whatever it is that you imagine.
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