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  1. #41
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    Maybe I am simply their target market, I don't know. What I do know is that if I decide I want to epic TR (and I know I will eventually on my rogue) and I am ready to do it *and* I don't have the commendations, then I am going to end up going for the store option. I am finally in a position where I can spend a couple hundred bucks a year over my subscription and cases like this are exactly why I purchase points in the first place. Now, if I have the commendations, I'll use them - but I expect I'll be saving those up over a couple trips through 20 to 28 and I also know I will not be epic TR'ing every one of my characters. So, it is conceivable I will end up with some epic hearts of wood simply because some of my other characters have earned enough for them.

  2. #42
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    It is likely that the developers want you to grind commendations for longer than it takes to get to cap.
    Quite likely. Though I know after a single day of not really putting much effort in I already have 1/10th of the required amount to TR.
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  3. #43
    Community Member Ovrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    What are people actually complaining about?
    You remember pre-MotU? I was running Epic quests at lvl cap 20 for 1,5 years or so without ever getting any xp.
    If you didn't get the loot you we're looking for you could basically say you ran that quest for nothing.

    But you know what kept me going? I had fun.

    If you just play this game for the sake of grinding and the thought that you run a quest without getting all the rewards you could get (running at cap 28 for commendations) bothers you so much, that you can't have fun, you might aswell ask yourself why you actually play.

    I like the new Epic TR. Running 70 - 100 epic quests and on top getting an epic past live? Same like before but you get the PL on top. What's wrong with that?

    And finally I can derust all my old epic gear that is ML:20, hooray.

    I really couldn't care less if I recap at 28 and have to run some extra quests for the missing comms.
    Guess what, that's what I would have done anyways.

    It's all the matter of getting the balance right between the carrot and the stick. The game isn't fun when all you get is the stick.

    Back in yon days of olde DDO, we had to run 20 epic quests to get a heart, while being xp capped. You could only run each quests once per day, but they all gave 1 token. Power gamers could do it in a weekend if they played a lot. The loot reward were rare as you mentioned, but they were also the best items in the game, that was the juicy carrot.

    Now, we have to run closer to 200 quests to get them new hearts, while being xp capped in a lot of cases. You can still only run them once per day, but the drops I've seen so far vary from 8 to 65, and there's a LOT more quests in the low end of the spectrum than the high one. There is basically no loot to strive for, except maybe a few named augments. It's still at least 2 weeks of power gamers playing full time to get the damn thing.


    Honestly, I don't even see the carrot in the CoV system... it feels as "fun" as the leveling sigils were.
    We want more Monster Manuals.

  4. #44
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by era42 View Post



    Streaking EE with 20% tome/20% potion adds +20% elite,first-timer +50%streak and you're at 47k. Without any optionals. Without explorers/rares/kills. With deaths.

    EDIT: Forgot, first timer greater tome is +50%, first time elite is +80% extra. Real number is way over 60k (just once / life, but still). I wonder what other bonuses I missed/miscalculated.





    Except most of the people wont get first time bonus since we all did it at least once, so no first time, no bb.
    Unless of course you plan to heroic tr every time you want to epic tr.

  5. #45
    Community Member Ovrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnziteBob View Post
    so does anyone know how many CoV you get from epic raids?
    Raids do give CoV, but I'm almost certain they hand out the same amount as a quest of the same level does, which is quite disappointing.
    We want more Monster Manuals.

  6. #46
    Death's Dominator Eth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovrad View Post
    It's all the matter of getting the balance right between the carrot and the stick. The game isn't fun when all you get is the stick.

    Back in yon days of olde DDO, we had to run 20 epic quests to get a heart, while being xp capped. You could only run each quests once per day, but they all gave 1 token. Power gamers could do it in a weekend if they played a lot. The loot reward were rare as you mentioned, but they were also the best items in the game, that was the juicy carrot.

    Now, we have to run closer to 200 quests to get them new hearts, while being xp capped in a lot of cases. You can still only run them once per day, but the drops I've seen so far vary from 8 to 65, and there's a LOT more quests in the low end of the spectrum than the high one. There is basically no loot to strive for, except maybe a few named augments. It's still at least 2 weeks of power gamers playing full time to get the damn thing.


    Honestly, I don't even see the carrot in the CoV system... it feels as "fun" as the leveling sigils were.
    Well maybe I just have a different perspective here. I never found any joy in the heroic TR system, so I rarely did it (most of my toons are 2nd or 3rd lifers). I always focused on endgame.
    So for me it's like this:
    - Pre-MotU: Run Epics for loot only (I used tokens for augments not for hearts)
    - MotU: Run Epics for loot, epic xp and epic destiny xp
    - some point: be done with epic xp and destiny xp. so back to loot only
    - U20: run stuff again for epic xp (epic past lives) and loot

    I can see the carrot.
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  7. #47
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    Except most of the people wont get first time bonus since we all did it at least once, so no first time, no bb.
    Unless of course you plan to heroic tr every time you want to epic tr.
    and lets not forget that most people will zerg this, so.. No: Conquest, Ransack, or Traps (anyone worth anything just jumps through them anyway),

    So really, on a typical run, you are looking to get Flawless and Persistence, and that's about it.

    Thus the numbers people are tossing out are a not realistic, and no one uses VoM, (maybe GoM, if they want to slot it), and why anyone at 'cap' is running pots or ship buffs is beyond me, unless they are looking to grind through an off ED.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    Oh! Turbine bumped up long quest epic XP...apparently VoN 3 got quite a bump. See this thread for further info.
    Yea that would make a difference! Of course, it only increases the disparity between xp- and comm-gathering. Good thing I'm in no hurry to TR.
    Thanks for the link

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  9. #49
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    Some of the posts here baffle me. I really like what Turbine has done. Now that we need a flat number of quests more or less for a heart, it takes some of the XP grind out of the game. We actually have a reason now to play our toons at cap and we aren't in this huge hurry to get to cap. Why don't some of you people stop grinding the same optimal XP quests like its work and just play all the content and enjoy yourself? We actually have a reason to do that now.

  10. #50
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by axel15810 View Post
    Some of the posts here baffle me. I really like what Turbine has done. Now that we need a flat number of quests more or less for a heart, it takes some of the XP grind out of the game. We actually have a reason now to play our toons at cap and we aren't in this huge hurry to get to cap. Why don't some of you people stop grinding the same optimal XP quests like its work and just play all the content and enjoy yourself? We actually have a reason to do that now.
    I love narrowed-minded, "my way or the highway" posts like this.

    How about those of us who want to get to cap, because we want to use the loot we have at ML 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, but want to do so without having to repeat quests, and don't really want to be grinding interminably, so we (I) choose to run an elite streak, hitting each quest once. I'll get as far as I can that way before having to go repeat quests, but if I want to ETR, I'm going to get to cap and find myself with dozens of completions yet to go through, so instead of choosing to repeat quests to grind out XP quicker, I'd be forced to grind out quests for CoV.

    And, really, it's not much of a reason to play characters at cap, just like there isn't much reason to ETR: what are you building towards?
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I love narrowed-minded, "my way or the highway" posts like this.

    How about those of us who want to get to cap, because we want to use the loot we have at ML 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, but want to do so without having to repeat quests, and don't really want to be grinding interminably, so we (I) choose to run an elite streak, hitting each quest once. I'll get as far as I can that way before having to go repeat quests, but if I want to ETR, I'm going to get to cap and find myself with dozens of completions yet to go through, so instead of choosing to repeat quests to grind out XP quicker, I'd be forced to grind out quests for CoV.

    And, really, it's not much of a reason to play characters at cap, just like there isn't much reason to ETR: what are you building towards?
    I fail to see how my post is narrow minded. I simply pointed out the focus on XP grinding has been reduced somewhat and suggested that some of you consider running a wider variety of content. I was in no way demanding anything, I merely offered a suggestion. You sound quite defensive in your post.

    my 2 cents -

    The devs designed the system with the intention that the average player, running a wide variety of quests on epic hard will earn a heart by the time they reach cap (whether the devs correctly did the math on this is another issue). Yes, if you run all epic elites on streak you will hit it faster. But you have to undestand that this game is designed for the huge majority of players, not the elite top few percent of players. 90%+ of epic toons atleast do not run epic elites hardly ever and an even smaller percent keep elite streak all during epic levels. So while you may need to grind quests at cap for an epic heart, theoretically the majority of players won't. You are in a tiny minority.

    And this isn't the end all for you. You could just continue playing the way you are and just buy an epic heart every 3rd epic life or so to make up for the comms you aren't getting by earning XP so quickly. Yeah you have to spend real money to do it, but it's an option depending on what you think your time is worth.

    What am I build towards? I plan to finish getting the last few pieces of equipment for my main and then just continue to epic reincarnate him and pick up past lives. I'm not in any hurry particularly. When I finish gearing him out I'll consider my "work" done and just have fun running through epic lives most likely. I agree the end game is lacking though and would like to see a few new end game raids worth running.

  12. #52
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    And, really, it's not much of a reason to play characters at cap, just like there isn't much reason to ETR: what are you building towards?
    There's just as much reason to epic TR as heroic TR. I'd go as far as saying anything after the third life does nothing for your build, besides providing some small perks. Yet people keep heroic TR'ing. This is no different from epic TR'ing which also gives you some small perks.

  13. #53
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    I'm surprised that people are really taking this negative stance still. Turbine has actually done right by their design intention for the first time in a while. They've satisfied all angles of their goals with this system.

    1st, if they wanted players to automatically have everything they needed in order to ER/ITR the moment they hit cap, they would not need Hearts and Comms; you'd simply be able to talk to the Reinc trainer the moment you hit cap and had at least one capped ED. No, they want to sell Hearts, and they are correct in wanting that. On top of that they've provided an F2P method of grinding the Hearts if we choose. This is also correct, and complies with how they've been doing the F2P model all this time.

    2nd, they've reduced the relative amount of time you're running in off-Destinies. You'll very quickly cap your off-EDs, and be able to play at cap in your ON destiny while grinding your free Heart. This makes sense, it's what we've asked for, and still satisfies point 1.

    3rd, by slowing down the TR train, the disparity between Epic 1 and Epic 8 (soon 10) decreases. Right now LFMs/PUGs suffer at endgame because of the 6Mxp chasm between Epic characters. As more characters clump up at 28(30), the LFM panel gets healthier. Granted, endgame play still needs work in the form of Raids (or other, new, endgame play mechanics), Loot, Fun in general. Let's look at what they do in the next 6mo and see if it attempts to address this.

    4th, EPL feats don't require a feat slot. What we asked for - Check. EPL feats are not so OP that they contribute to the hated power creep. What we asked for - Check. EPL feats stack in a really meaningful way. What we asked for - Check.

    5th, WHILE satisfying the needs of Reincarnation, the new currency ALSO grants benefits to players with no intention or desire to ER/ITR, in the form of CoV Trader goodies. We didn't ask for this, but it's a great side effect and certainly nothing to complain about. Yes, the rewards could use a tweak here and there, but all-in-all a pretty nice 1st blush.

    So how about we actually TRY working/playing within the system as designed for a bit, before condemning Turbine on the 1st day?
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    I'm surprised that people are really taking this negative stance still. Turbine has actually done right by their design intention for the first time in a while. They've satisfied all angles of their goals with this system.

    1st, if they wanted players to automatically have everything they needed in order to ER/ITR the moment they hit cap, they would not need Hearts and Comms; you'd simply be able to talk to the Reinc trainer the moment you hit cap and had at least one capped ED. No, they want to sell Hearts, and they are correct in wanting that. On top of that they've provided an F2P method of grinding the Hearts if we choose. This is also correct, and complies with how they've been doing the F2P model all this time.

    2nd, they've reduced the relative amount of time you're running in off-Destinies. You'll very quickly cap your off-EDs, and be able to play at cap in your ON destiny while grinding your free Heart. This makes sense, it's what we've asked for, and still satisfies point 1.

    3rd, by slowing down the TR train, the disparity between Epic 1 and Epic 8 (soon 10) decreases. Right now LFMs/PUGs suffer at endgame because of the 6Mxp chasm between Epic characters. As more characters clump up at 28(30), the LFM panel gets healthier. Granted, endgame play still needs work in the form of Raids (or other, new, endgame play mechanics), Loot, Fun in general. Let's look at what they do in the next 6mo and see if it attempts to address this.

    4th, EPL feats don't require a feat slot. What we asked for - Check. EPL feats are not so OP that they contribute to the hated power creep. What we asked for - Check. EPL feats stack in a really meaningful way. What we asked for - Check.

    5th, WHILE satisfying the needs of Reincarnation, the new currency ALSO grants benefits to players with no intention or desire to ER/ITR, in the form of CoV Trader goodies. We didn't ask for this, but it's a great side effect and certainly nothing to complain about. Yes, the rewards could use a tweak here and there, but all-in-all a pretty nice 1st blush.

    So how about we actually TRY working/playing within the system as designed for a bit, before condemning Turbine on the 1st day?
    You are making way too much sense. I think we should all continue to groan and make unreasonable demands.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodeus451 View Post
    EDIT: for the record, the highest level quest in the game, on EE, rewards a base XP of 25,174. so thers NO WAY you're getting 30k+ per quest
    Huh? Ran a EN von3 last night, got more than 30k from optionals, completion xp was 75k with just daily bonus, 2% ship and voice, so over 100k total with no pots or tome. Wiz-king was about the same in total, more from optionals and less from completion though. Hell, the 2 off towers alone are worth more than 30k.

    Base xp is not anything close to what the total might be.

  16. #56
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    I love narrowed-minded, "my way or the highway" posts like this.

    How about those of us who want to get to cap, because we want to use the loot we have at ML 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, but want to do so without having to repeat quests, and don't really want to be grinding interminably, so we (I) choose to run an elite streak, hitting each quest once. I'll get as far as I can that way before having to go repeat quests, but if I want to ETR, I'm going to get to cap and find myself with dozens of completions yet to go through, so instead of choosing to repeat quests to grind out XP quicker, I'd be forced to grind out quests for CoV.

    And, really, it's not much of a reason to play characters at cap, just like there isn't much reason to ETR: what are you building towards?
    If you are doing one and done on elite, you will have enough Comms to ER well before level 28.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    And finally I can derust all my old epic gear that is ML:20, hooray.
    Actually, this might be the biggest problem I have with the new epic hamster wheel. On-destiny there really isn't much difference between lvl 20 and lvl 28. So it's almost like being able to run endgame while you are actually on the wheel. The problem I have is the huge inventory nightmare that will occur with trying to keep track of gear setups at various levels due to item ml's. With the lousy inventory system in this game, it would be seriously nice to get to 28, know that I'm staying there, and be able to dump all gear that simply won't have any place in my build. As long as we are on the hamster wheel (which under the new system is always) that won't be the case.

    I'd love to see them ease up on the ml restrictions for anyone who has had an epic tr. Let's say lvl 20 can use lvl 20-24 ml gear. Lvl 25 can use lvl 25-28 gear. That means we could have a gear layour for when we return to 20, and one additional gear layout when we hit level 25, and avoid most of the additional inventory migraine.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodeus451 View Post
    heres some simple math, for those who think its insane: 6.6 Mil xp is needed to ETR, at ~30k per quest (an overestimation) thats 220 quests. so ya, you need to pick comms for about 2/3 of the quests you run from 20 to 28. That % will get better when the cap raises to 30.

    the problem is alot of ppl who want to ETR are already at cap.

    i think what Turbine SHOULD have done is given everyone who already had a capped ED (and thus enough Karma to ETR) a FREE Epic Heart


    i'm not saying it doesnt suck for the ppl already at cap, it does.


    but going forward, once those ppl have ETR'd, and run through the system as its intended to work, it wont be AS bad

    EDIT: for the record, the highest level quest in the game, on EE, rewards a base XP of 25,174. so thers NO WAY you're getting 30k+ per quest
    You think the final xp reward people get is equal to base xp? You obviously haven't played DDO much.

    first time elite bonus: 80%
    Elite bb streak. 70%
    Greater tome (1st time): 25%
    Daily bonus: 20%
    conquest: 25%
    disarming: 15%
    secret doors: 15%
    Ransack: 15%
    optionals: varies, can be up to 100% or so (wizking)
    ship buff: 5%
    VOM: 5%
    xp pot:: up to 50%
    special DDO event: up to 25%
    others?

    All players don't get all bonuses in all quests, but it is pretty normal to get at least +200% of base experience and sometimes +300%+. You are way off and I think the Dev's calculations that people will have 4200 comms by the time they hit level 28 is way off as well. By the time people hit level 30? Maybe.

  19. #59
    Community Member Miow's Avatar
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    im cool with the whole thing tx turbine
    Last edited by Miow; 11-13-2013 at 12:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedOrm View Post
    I'd love to know as well (seriously), as I run this quest on EH a lot (not quite daily but still), and both my napkin and my experience so far tells me the number is closer to 60K plus optionals, call it 70-75K in all. This includes a greater epic tome, 10% vip, 5% ship, and voice.

    That said, I agree 100% the number of comms required is silly, and have said so on lama along with numerous other people. Turbine chose to ignore this, meaning I personally will not be TRing anytime soon (gut feeling: round about when I hit level 30) unless that vip thing a dev mentioned actually does get me a free heart.

    Edit: ninja'd by Sephirot; he comes out higher due to the pot and possibly the traps bonus.

    Greetz,
    Red Orm
    I'm guessing you haven't run it since u20 then. Now on EN, with no traps, no vip, no tome, no pots, just 20% daily, 2% ship and 5% voice it's 75k for completion and over 6k for each opt. Two days ago your numbers would have been on, not today.

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