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  1. #61
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebastianosmith View Post
    And where, exactly, did I state or imply any such pretense? I merely stated the reasoning behind why I prefer being a VIP. You then proceeded to chide me for those stated reasons, without any provocation on my part I may add.
    No, I chided you for using vague wording that seemed to be an attempt to shift attention away from the simple fact that you cannot be bothered and put attention onto something that simply isn't true. Once again I have no problems with people playing the way they want to play and paying the way they want to pay. I just dislike it when people try to make Premium out to be something it really isn't. Namely that Premium somehow requires effort and thought on the part of the user.
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  2. #62
    Founder xberto's Avatar
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    at $10 a month....how can you loose.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by xberto View Post
    how can you loose
    Ahem, well, you know,

    The evolution of DDO: Stormreach to Eberron Unlimited to Dungeons & Dragons Online
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  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    No, I chided you for using vague wording that seemed to be an attempt to shift attention away from the simple fact that you cannot be bothered and put attention onto something that simply isn't true. Once again I have no problems with people playing the way they want to play and paying the way they want to pay. I just dislike it when people try to make Premium out to be something it really isn't. Namely that Premium somehow requires effort and thought on the part of the user.
    I can't be held accountable for your interpretation of "vague wording". Perhaps you missed the first-person singular nominative case pronoun "I" used throughout my original statements. Allow me to reiterate and dispose of any vagaries for you - "I" don't want to recall what packs, races and other perks I've acquired over the years. "I" prefer the convenience of being a VIP for that and other reasons. "I" was neither declaring nor implying that premium users are unduly burdened by such efforts.

    Does that mollify your shoulder chip, or must "I" continue to placate your ego before you admit your mistake and apologize?
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  5. #65
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Long term it very much is the superior deal. The catch is it requires about two years to break even assuming you acquire everything through sales (both TP and content). Closer to three years if you do not bother with sales. If you do not intend to play for that long, VIP is superior.
    And that doesn't include the stuff that you cannot purchase with premium membership - such as elite openers and +10% all-the-time-every-quest xp bonus. Also, when new content is added (that they do not call expansions) the spread gets even wider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    But Turbine continuously shows they have no concern for their player base
    You mean the player base that posts their opinions in the forums. Which are generally the same 20-30 very vocal players every time. This is not to say that they don't represent what many others may also believe, but really 20-30 out of thousands that play the game is not always representative of the much larger population as a whole. These 20-30 vocal ones generally:

    1. Have been around a long time, which makes changes harder to accept.
    2. Have a certain way they play the game, and changes generally make those ways less advantageous.
    3. Do not represent new players that may actually LIKE the changes, but do not post on the forums.

    I have played for about 4 years (with an 18 month break in between) and when I came back I liked the game much better than before.
    I was really aprehensive about the E-pass, but once I got used to it (which took maybe a week) I have to admit I really like it.
    Ordinary humans have inhibitions that serve as a buffer against what we know is bad behavior.
    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
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  6. #66
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    And that doesn't include the stuff that you cannot purchase with premium membership - such as elite openers and +10% all-the-time-every-quest xp bonus. Also, when new content is added (that they do not call expansions) the spread gets even wider.
    There have been times I have been tempted to go VIP simply to level my TRs faster. But Elite opening is frankly worthless in my opinion. Especially for a game where the mechanic that allows for opening Hard/Elite, aka True Reincarnation, is considered end game.
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  7. #67
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    after reading this thread i now see the light!

    no longer will i join "running for bb, need opener" quests, instead i shall chide them in tells about how awesome i am with my VIP status.

    clearly to help others is WRONG, so i shall do my best to play the game RIGHT

    if i should see anyone discussing their payment preferences i shall now do my best to alienate them by shouting at them how WRONG they are to do anything other than the same thing i am doing (VIP for now, but i will be sure to change sides should i change payment plans). it is clear to me now that players cannot have such discussions for they should be arguments where one side is clearly WRONG and should be treated as such.

    maybe i should just stick to LFMs asking for STRONG players only as surely the STRONGs cannot be WRONGs?
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  8. #68
    Community Member moomooprincess's Avatar
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    When the game comes back up, VIPs now get a 15% XP Bonus, instead of 10%.

    Assuming it works, Turbine has not messed up a bonus XP as far as I know.
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  9. #69
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moomooprincess View Post
    When the game comes back up, VIPs now get a 15% XP Bonus, instead of 10%.
    Until the 12th. We'll see then if they keep it or not. If they're smart, they will. It is a very good selling point.
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  10. #70
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    And that doesn't include the stuff that you cannot purchase with premium membership - such as elite openers and +10% all-the-time-every-quest xp bonus. Also, when new content is added (that they do not call expansions) the spread gets even wider.



    You mean the player base that posts their opinions in the forums. Which are generally the same 20-30 very vocal players every time. This is not to say that they don't represent what many others may also believe, but really 20-30 out of thousands that play the game is not always representative of the much larger population as a whole. These 20-30 vocal ones generally:

    1. Have been around a long time, which makes changes harder to accept.
    2. Have a certain way they play the game, and changes generally make those ways less advantageous.
    3. Do not represent new players that may actually LIKE the changes, but do not post on the forums.

    I have played for about 4 years (with an 18 month break in between) and when I came back I liked the game much better than before.
    I was really aprehensive about the E-pass, but once I got used to it (which took maybe a week) I have to admit I really like it.
    The number of log ins speaks for itself, and the only people who dont believe this are an even smaller contingent of the 20-30 vocal players who post regularly on the forums - like 3-4 people. The rest understand the correlation between log in data and attendance. They also understand the reasoning behind lack of attendance - game isnt entertaining for those folks not logging in anymore. The "why" of this is discussed on these forums by players who - like you said - have been around for a long time and have seen each transition of the game between update to update. Each time customer feedback is not listened to and attendance shrinks, that should send a message.

    Its not that "change is harder to accept" as a blanket statement, but more like the long time player compares the old system to the new system, wonders why they changed it to make it harder to acquire something in game. Then they look in the DDO store and note that what they are trying to acquire can be purchased there. Marketing 101 - never give people something for a long time and then take it away or make it harder / more expensive to obtain, and expect to be met with zero resistance. The only reason why newer players will LIKE the changes, is because they werent used to the way things were for years before said changes. Of course, if they were, that puts them into your category of longer term players who have a harder time accepting change.

    I note that most players accept the enhancement pass as a whole, and have a few specific things the feel could have been done differently in it as feedback. The major issue people are griping about isnt the enhancement pass, but the change in the TR mechanics.

  11. #71
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    This thread is the epitome of the internet.

    Angry people making bad arguments about something that no one really cares about.

    /win

  12. #72
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The number of log ins speaks for itself, and the only people who dont believe this are an even smaller contingent of the 20-30 vocal players who post regularly on the forums - like 3-4 people. The rest understand the correlation between log in data and attendance.
    What log in data? I mean the game has thousands of players, few of whom post in the forums (comparatively speaking). And correlation does not = causation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Each time customer feedback is not listened to and attendance shrinks, that should send a message.
    And likewise, if Turbiine continues to make money doing things their way, and not the "old timers that were here pre-F2P" way, that should be a message as well. I'm not saying there is no legitamacy to the argument about player feedback on the forums, but it probably does not carry the weight you (we) think it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    but more like the long time player compares the old system to the new system, wonders why they changed it to make it harder to acquire something in game.
    Really? Because when I quit playing around the time of the guild updates (all loot had MLx Guild slots) and then came back 18 months later, the game was easier. A LOT easier. Loot was better, mobs were weaker, I could solo most everything - which was not the case when I left. I think 50% of the gripes I see about "changes" are old timers upset that the noobs don't have to grind for everything like they did. They didn't like the grind themselves, but thnk everyone should have to work as hard as they did and seem sore that stuff comes to easy for all these new players. Yet its the new players that help grow the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Then they look in the DDO store and note that what they are trying to acquire can be purchased there.
    Do you want Turbine to make the game your way, and all players to play it your way? Or should Turbine be allowed to make money along the way too? Or must they only make money the way you think they should make money?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Marketing 101 - never give people something for a long time and then take it away or make it harder / more expensive to obtain, and expect to be met with zero resistance.
    Are you sure that's in a marketing text book somewhere? Because it sounds like you just made that up because you don't like the DDO store. Marketing 101 says "get people used to using something to the point they can't do without it, then charge them for it".

    This was the tactic used by cell phone companies. Perhaps you are thnking of "Ethics 101"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The only reason why newer players will LIKE the changes, is because they werent used to the way things were for years before said changes.
    I thought you never made blanket statements or spoke in terms of black and white? Maybe someone else said that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    IThe major issue people are griping about isnt the enhancement pass, but the change in the TR mechanics.
    This month.
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    However, some people, by blaming others for their own bad behavior, develop a thought pattern that allows them to override self-control in order to achieve a selfish end.
    - My opinion on exploiters and cheaters blaming SSG for unfair punishment.

  13. #73
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2x4 View Post
    I don't have to worry about having or not having any particular part of the game. Just give me everything as it comes. No worries no drama.
    This is not true, there are a lot things that VIP's do get, but at the same time, they do not get 'everything' as it comes. IIRC: They do not get Drow, FvS, Arti, MotuD Expansion Pack, and the current expansion, Shadowfell, also, I am not sure if they get iconics or not (Can someone inform me?)

    So there is a lot missing from that "everything"

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    This is not true, there are a lot things that VIP's do get, but at the same time, they do not get 'everything' as it comes. IIRC: They do not get Drow, FvS, Arti, MotuD Expansion Pack, and the current expansion, Shadowfell, also, I am not sure if they get iconics or not (Can someone inform me?)

    So there is a lot missing from that "everything"
    we dont get iconics.

    THis kinds of thing doesnt bother me at all though. maybe when turbine puts Shadowfell and iconics on sale I'll get em... Maybe not. Not once have I regretted not buying shadowfell.
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  15. #75
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    What log in data? I mean the game has thousands of players, few of whom post in the forums (comparatively speaking). And correlation does not = causation.
    I didnt say causation. Log in data gets kept track of on a specific web site, and has been kept track of for years now. You can see the trends where people come back for a significant update and then stop logging in shortly thereafter. There have been enough of these occurrences to see that the data is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    And likewise, if Turbiine continues to make money doing things their way, and not the "old timers that were here pre-F2P" way, that should be a message as well. I'm not saying there is no legitamacy to the argument about player feedback on the forums, but it probably does not carry the weight you (we) think it does.
    So youre saying that with half as many people, the average amount of money each person spends is more than twice as much - because that is what would be needed for Turbine to be making more money this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Really? Because when I quit playing around the time of the guild updates (all loot had MLx Guild slots) and then came back 18 months later, the game was easier. A LOT easier. Loot was better, mobs were weaker, I could solo most everything - which was not the case when I left. I think 50% of the gripes I see about "changes" are old timers upset that the noobs don't have to grind for everything like they did. They didn't like the grind themselves, but thnk everyone should have to work as hard as they did and seem sore that stuff comes to easy for all these new players. Yet its the new players that help grow the game.
    Easier =/= better. It was way too easy, not much to do, integrity of most challenges gone etc. Not to mention the fact that most of the entire game can be paid to skip.

    The entire idea that newbies dont have to grind for the stuff vets did is a straw man argument that only gets brought up by those who defend the changes. I dont see it ever posted by actual vets. What I see posted by vets is that theres nothing to do, because the loot that used to be worth grinding for is no longer worth grinding for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Do you want Turbine to make the game your way, and all players to play it your way? Or should Turbine be allowed to make money along the way too? Or must they only make money the way you think they should make money?
    Making money means giving players something to do. The TR system has no purpose because theres nothing in the game that requires those bonuses. TR is not an endgame, its a hamster wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Are you sure that's in a marketing text book somewhere? Because it sounds like you just made that up because you don't like the DDO store. Marketing 101 says "get people used to using something to the point they can't do without it, then charge them for it".
    Yep, it is marketing 101. Several of them describe the relationship between the length of time someone had a benefit for less cost and how many people will pay the higher cost when the price is jacked up. Its better to create a new situation that you can charge users for than it is to modify an existing situation users were satisfied with to make it more difficult to acquire the item they want in hopes that more of them will pay for it instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I thought you never made blanket statements or spoke in terms of black and white? Maybe someone else said that.
    Its nto hard to understand the new players who didnt get to experience the old way arent going to gripe about the new way as much as longer term players who did get to experience both will - due to having experienced both. Its only a blanket statement because theres no other reason. If new players didnt experience both they arent seeing the big picture those who did experience both are seeing.

    And the irony of saying NEVER making blanket statements.....ROFL. No - when a situation is a degree based situation, arguing in absolutes is hilarious. Thats my claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    This month.
    For the past few months now, for those who have been reading Glins posts on the changes and providing feedback.
    Last edited by Chai; 11-12-2013 at 01:29 PM.

  16. #76
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    Default if you REALLY care how another plays, you have issues of your own that you are hiding

    ok you bone heads...THIS is how you do it..

    two computers, 2 accounts 1 F2P, 1 VIP on the one year deal...only one toon on each account, VIP plays, F2P pikes..

    F2P computer doesn't have to "game" as long as you can get into the quests the first time around it's good enough.

    login on both accounts..group together, use VIP account's TP to get guest passes for F2P account and then
    run everything on Elite and get all flagging (necro crypts, etc) completed through level 20 on F2P account....

    2 dedicated buddies with 2 comps, 2 accounts and a hireling each team up and complete at a casual pace, in 3-6 months)

    enjoy rest of time as VIP while hoarding TP then go premium with packs, races, classes, toon, slots and shared bank..

    then use the Group Flagging ability available on the F2P account to open for first life toons on the previously VIP account..
    the F2P account only has to be in a group to share the flagging, so it's still useful at lvl 20...

    Enjoy not having to pay Turbine to play any more while owning your preferred 80% of the game




    I use a modified version of this, I only go Premium for a few days once a year when I buy more packs/races/classes/slots...
    this setup is a fall back in case I reach a point where i can't afford an extra .35 a day on top of the I'net connection costs
    to entertain myself for 6 or 7 hours a day...

    if I can get Linux to carry multiple instances of Wine running DDO, I'd do it all on one comp.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    Not once have I regretted not buying shadowfell.
    I wholeheartedly agree and seeing how they have packaged things since MoTU, I am glad I bought MoTU, 'cause it has been decidely downhill since then, imo. Now, in all fairness, the devs have put a lot of work into "non-content," with the enhancement changes being front and center. With that and TRs now out of the way, I will be interested to see if content additions pick-up.
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  18. #78
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    What log in data? I mean the game has thousands of players, few of whom post in the forums (comparatively speaking).
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  19. #79
    Community Member dougnugget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shores11 View Post
    I am sorry but it seems comprehension isn't a strong suite I am not picking a fight with non-VIPs
    My comprehension is just fine thank you.

    You see VIP members could care less how you want to spend your money but F2P and premium players sure seem to go the extended mile to tell VIPs how to spend theirs.
    That's called picking a fight.

  20. #80
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    I do think that a lot of people are missing the actual best reason to be VIP. You get to keep taking advantage of certain exploits after they have been fixed for the P2P and F2P groups.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

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