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  1. #1
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    Default Going Tank - Fighter vs Paladin and Human vs Dwarf?

    I recently started to play DDO and I want to buld a tank.. I was looking at the enhancements of Fighter and Paladins and they are pretty much the same. I was thinking of goin Dwarf Pally but hate the idea if taking Feats for Tower Shield and / or Kopesh..
    Going Fughter will get me some extra feats but will lose some pretty nice spells/ buffs and saves...

    then there is the question about stances - Comabt expertise or the Stance from the Core def. trees? i guess i can't use both so why get Combat Expertise in the 1st place?

    I have read a few threats about it but still can't decide what would be better. So any advices or comparison of the two? Maybe i should just go Fighter / Pally build and leave it at that ?

  2. #2
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    First, tank builds are basically not needed in most (99%) of the game.

    Second, in this game being a tank build is so dependent on gear that you will... not be a tank until you get it, and your dps will be horrendous. If you are hell bent on making a tank it would be easier for you to make any other build and collect gear until you are ready to make a tank.

    Third, paladin is the weakest class in the game. It looks good on paper, but there is no reason to take more than 4 paladin levels.

    If I were you I would make a dps focused battle cleric instead, and just heal through the damage instead of shield blocking through the quest. Maybe take 2 paladin levels for the saves.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiGreyer View Post
    I recently started to play DDO and I want to buld a tank.. I was looking at the enhancements of Fighter and Paladins and they are pretty much the same. I was thinking of goin Dwarf Pally but hate the idea if taking Feats for Tower Shield and / or Kopesh..
    Going Fughter will get me some extra feats but will lose some pretty nice spells/ buffs and saves...

    then there is the question about stances - Comabt expertise or the Stance from the Core def. trees? i guess i can't use both so why get Combat Expertise in the 1st place?

    I have read a few threats about it but still can't decide what would be better. So any advices or comparison of the two? Maybe i should just go Fighter / Pally build and leave it at that ?
    For what it's worth I was on a paladin life when update 19 hit (TR'd to run with a friend) and enjoyed it a lot despite all the "paladin is the worst class in the game" naysayers. My advice if you are looking for hard to kill melee is a DPS focused axe and board build using dwarven axes. I liked 16/2/2 paladin/monk/fighter. This gets you great saves, evasion (to take advantage of great saves), enough feats, great self heals through lay on hands, cure spells, and unyielding sovereignty, and leverages the best parts of both paladin trees + maybe a few nice things from fighter. DPS wise I was almost keeping up with a guildy of mine playing a sorc, and I was VERY hard to kill despite not really being built as a traditional "tank". The +6 str from stance and divine might combine to add a TON of strength in mid levels and beyond so you'll be probably 12-16 str ahead of a lot of melee builds while leveling. This + imp shield mastery + zeal allow you to almost keep up with a TWF or THF build for damage while being much harder to kill. I think my build was something along these lines (after it changed due to the enh pass):

    Human 16/2/2
    1 - paladin - prof:d-axe, THF
    2 - monk - PA
    3 - monk - dodge, cleave
    4-18 - paladin
    6 - great cleave
    9 - imp crit:slashing
    12 - shield mastery
    15 - ITHF
    18 - GTHF
    19 - fighter - imp shield mastery
    20 - fighter - stunning blow
    21 - overwhelming crit

    I will note though that I have really nice leveling gear compared to a new player, you'll miss things like green steel weapons and torc of raiyum, but just the advantages of the build should compensate. APs were really tight, too many good things to take. I originally had a bunch of points in human to get GH, but dumped this after 18 when I could use multiple GH clickies (draconic necklace + planar gird) which helped a lot. Dwarf would be great for the damage bonuses, but I fear AP would be even tighter (hard to complain about too many good things to spend on).

  4. #4
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiGreyer View Post
    then there is the question about stances - Comabt expertise or the Stance from the Core def. trees? i guess i can't use both so why get Combat Expertise in the 1st place?
    Sacred / Stalwart defensive stance will stack with combat stance feats; but they won't stack w/each other and you can only have one combat stance active at a time.

    I just started a thread about the classic Dwarven Defender. In general, ftrs have better DPS and a lot more feats than pallies, but have lousy Reflex & Will saves and zero self-healing/self-sufficiency; while pallies have much better survivability (high saves, Lay on Hands, Cure spells, etc.), but lower DPS and their lack of feats forces some tough compromises in your build. MCing is the way to go if you want to try to optimize the pros and minimize the cons of both classes. Inoukchuk's build is a solid example of a mostly-pally build. Another option is ftr 12 / pal 6 / monk 2: you don't have nearly as much self-healing, but you do get a few more feats and the Stalwart tree has more S&B DPS bonuses (like Shield Striking and Block&Cut) than the Sacred tree does; while still keeping all the low-lvl bonuses of pallies.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Sacred / Stalwart defensive stance will stack with combat stance feats; but they won't stack w/each other and you can only have one combat stance active at a time.

    I just started a thread about the classic Dwarven Defender. In general, ftrs have better DPS and a lot more feats than pallies, but have lousy Reflex & Will saves and zero self-healing/self-sufficiency; while pallies have much better survivability (high saves, Lay on Hands, Cure spells, etc.), but lower DPS and their lack of feats forces some tough compromises in your build. MCing is the way to go if you want to try to optimize the pros and minimize the cons of both classes. Inoukchuk's build is a solid example of a mostly-pally build. Another option is ftr 12 / pal 6 / monk 2: you don't have nearly as much self-healing, but you do get a few more feats and the Stalwart tree has more S&B DPS bonuses (like Shield Striking and Block&Cut) than the Sacred tree does; while still keeping all the low-lvl bonuses of pallies.
    Yep, also a very solid build. This option gets you keen edge, GWS, power surge to really boost up the str/tactics/damage while still getting paladin saves, modest LoH, and US. The LoH + US + cures + cocoon should be ample healing, even if far less than the 16 paladin build would give.

  6. #6
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Monk, like everything else in DDO.

  7. #7
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiGreyer View Post
    I recently started to play DDO and I want to buld a tank.. I was looking at the enhancements of Fighter and Paladins and they are pretty much the same. I was thinking of goin Dwarf Pally but hate the idea if taking Feats for Tower Shield and / or Kopesh..
    Going Fughter will get me some extra feats but will lose some pretty nice spells/ buffs and saves...

    then there is the question about stances - Comabt expertise or the Stance from the Core def. trees? i guess i can't use both so why get Combat Expertise in the 1st place?

    I have read a few threats about it but still can't decide what would be better. So any advices or comparison of the two? Maybe i should just go Fighter / Pally build and leave it at that ?
    First, Tanking requires gear investment not available right away to a first life character, It will be an uphill battle during this life.

    As for Paladin vs Fighter
    <- The advantage of the Paladin class is its ability to self heal and buff and Save bonus from Charisma
    <- The advantage of the Fighter class is the ability to "choose" more feats and to customize the fighting style

    <- The disadvantage of the Paladin is it has fewer feats to "choose" as most are already decided
    <- The disadvantage of the Fighter is no "innate" healing and lower saves

    As for Tower Shield and Khopesh proficiency
    <- Both Paladin or Fighter would need to use a Feat to be proficient with this weapon (* Note Dwarves get Dwarven War Axe as a Martial Weapon making either class proficient)
    <- Tower Shield Proficiency on a Paladin can be overcome by the following
    --- Taking at least one Fighter level (Giving up the Capstone)
    --- Through the use of UMD using the Master's Touch Scroll (1st Level Arcane spell that requires a UMD of 20, where a UMD of 10 to be 50% on a spell that lasts until REST)
    --- Taking the Tower Shield Feat

    As for Defensive stance of Fighter/Paladin and Combat Expertise (CE)
    <- the Fighter Stance and Paladin Stances do not stack with each other and both require a Shield to get full benefit
    <- Combat Expertise stacks with the Fighter/Paladin Stance
    ---- Advantage is additional AC
    ---- Disadvantage is that spell casting time and cooldowns are increased

    But an additional note - As much AC as CE can bring in many cases it is either not needed or has poor ROI compared to Power Attack. I will be honest that I have traded CE out for Cleave on my Tank Pure Paladin. I use Defensive stance when additional AC matters, but run utilizing Power Attack 99% of the time.

    As you are thinking of going with a Dwarf Tank, I would recommend using the Dwarven Axe while you gear up. The advantage of this is saving on Feats for proficiency.

    I would also recommend going more of an offensive route while you build up the needed gear to generate the "Hate" needed to be a successful tank. And while people will throw out numbers of how much a tank is not "Needed", I might point out that just about every individual role falls in nearly the same not NEEDED category. But when present and used effectively can reduce quest difficulty. As a tank I've have been thanked numerous times on my ability to keep groups of mobs together to maximize spell damage as well as reduce the healing costs of the group.

    Spend time this first life gearing up and do not stress on Tanking - Also watch others and learn what is needed to be effective.

  8. #8
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    Thanks for the comment guys, the more i play the game the more I think i would go MC Pally / Fighter, still trying to figure out how many lvl of each but I will probably go more fighter for the feats. As for the healing I started to think that just having a Cleric Hireling will be more the enough to get me through the game.

  9. #9
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    I posted a couple of pally tank builds to this thread; and Ralmeth posted one here.

  10. #10
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiGreyer View Post
    I recently started to play DDO and I want to buld a tank.. I was looking at the enhancements of Fighter and Paladins and they are pretty much the same. I was thinking of goin Dwarf Pally but hate the idea if taking Feats for Tower Shield and / or Kopesh..
    Going Fughter will get me some extra feats but will lose some pretty nice spells/ buffs and saves...

    then there is the question about stances - Comabt expertise or the Stance from the Core def. trees? i guess i can't use both so why get Combat Expertise in the 1st place?

    I have read a few threats about it but still can't decide what would be better. So any advices or comparison of the two? Maybe i should just go Fighter / Pally build and leave it at that ?
    This is not like a lot of other MMOs where tanks are effective. Tanks in DDO are not necessary and in fact extremely inefficient. Trying to warn yeah so you do not have to find out the hard way as it takes you forever to complete quests.
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  11. #11
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    For a new toon that have to farm most of the gear Paladin > Fighter, why? spells and saves. (Cure serious wounds, Cure moderate wounds, lay of hands, deathward, resists if no ship), having 30 reflex save instead 22 at high heroic levels could represent a lot of damage mitigation, more if having evasion.

    As for Dwarf vs Human, they are more tight, Dwarf get a bit more hitpoints , tactics and few saves against spells while Human gets damage action boost and some heal amplification. Considering they are tied on features because Dwarf gets free dwarven axe proficiency and considering that you are not going for tactics, Human > Dwarf, because heal amplification and damage boost is better than just some extra hitpoints. (now, dwarf has a enhancement that gives constitution bonus to damage if higher than strength that can be good for fighter tanks but heavy on action points spent, but considering that strength has much better buffs and enhancements than constitution, including divine might, will lose some dps if taking that enhancement and having better constitution than strength)

    So my advice is going Human Paladin 14/fighter 6 if want more fighter features and stalwart enhancements, haste boost, some kensei abilities, while keeping most of paladin spells, Knight of the chalice heal amplification enahncements plus human heal amplification enahncements, and you will have decent self heal without requiring much gear, just some devotion item and maybe empower heal feature, with a wizardry item you will have a decent number of spellpoints plus decent lay of hands to keep decent self heal. (While leveling can take all the paladins levels earlier, leaving fighter for last levels)

    For last, is important to invest on dps (damage output), even on a tank, because its true that in this game you need dps most of the time to kill enemies (I would take Power attack, cleave, great cleave, Imp critical slash, Dwarven axe or Bastard sword, THF at least, shield mastery, imp shield mastery, with a base Str of 23 at level 21 for Overwhelming critical, Bulwark of defense at level 24, empower healing, quicken, and if have room for more but less needed shield bash, improved shield bash, extend spell or combat expertise.
    Last edited by elcagador; 11-23-2013 at 10:53 PM.

  12. #12
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiGreyer View Post
    As for the healing I started to think that just having a Cleric Hireling will be more the enough to get me through the game.
    While you can certainly solo most content with a hireling, it's helpful to have at least some self-healing, if only to save yourself in an emergency. Naturally, that's one big advantage to playing a paladin; even if you make zero investment into your Cure spells, a pally should still have 4 Lay on Hands and usually Unyielding Sovereignty.
    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    This is not like a lot of other MMOs where tanks are effective. Tanks in DDO are not necessary and in fact extremely inefficient. Trying to warn yeah so you do not have to find out the hard way as it takes you forever to complete quests.
    While a "real" tank isn't necessary most of the time, S&B DPS is a lot better than it used to be if you build for it properly. All of my tank-y builds are meant to have strong DPS options as well.

  13. #13
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post

    While a "real" tank isn't necessary most of the time, S&B DPS is a lot better than it used to be if you build for it properly. All of my tank-y builds are meant to have strong DPS options as well.
    LOLz - it is forum malpractice recommending any new player build a "tank" in the current DDO.

  14. #14
    Hero Propane's Avatar
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    Default Dwarf - Tatical Tank

    Below is a build I am having a lot of fun with.

    Improved Trip and Stunning blow at some nice CC - something fun to do while not tanking.
    Grapping a two-hander for extra DPS when you want-

    You will need 13 Int for CE a few levels down the road
    I use a crafted shield with Stunning +X, (and an augment slot) - Alcehmical Air - Fire - X at higher levels.
    Dip into the Dwarf Tree and Kensi trees enought for the +3 to tatics in each.

    PM me if you want more details-

    Level 20 TN Dwarf Male
    (20 Fighter)
    Hit Points: 394


    Starting
    Abilities Base Stats
    (32 Point) (Level 1)
    Strength 16
    Dexterity 16
    Constitution 16
    Intelligence 12
    Wisdom 8
    Charisma 8




    Level 1 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness

    Level 2 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack

    Level 3 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Cleave

    Level 4 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave

    Level 5 (Fighter)

    Level 6 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
    Feat: (Selected) Mobility

    Level 7 (Fighter)

    Level 8 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

    Level 9 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise

    Level 10 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Trip

    Level 11 (Fighter)

    Level 12 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Spring Attack
    Feat: (Selected) Whirlwind Attack

    Level 13 (Fighter)

    Level 14 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting

    Level 15 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting

    Level 16 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting

    Level 17 (Fighter)

    Level 18 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery

    Level 19 (Fighter)
    Level 20 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery
    Last edited by Propane; 11-24-2013 at 01:01 PM.

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