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  1. #1
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Default Issues with all Feats/Enhancements for Shuriken Crit Threat/Mulitplier

    Devs,

    The following enhancements do nothing for Shuriken:

    -Ninja Spy Capstone: Critical Threat Range increase of +2 for Shuriken (does not change threat range at all). It's called Ninja Master

    -Halfing Racial Enhancement: Master Thrower also, like Ninja Master, does nothing. It's supposed to give a +1 Crit Threat increase.

    -Kensai Keen Edge, like the halfling enhancement, is meant to give a +1 Competence bonus to threat range, which works with every single weapon in the game except shuriken, despite being advertised as doing in it's description.

    Please let us know if you're aware, and/or will address it any time in the reasonable future. Making builds and committing to them is very difficult without this sort of information.

  2. #2
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    Seconded, this is some pretty lame shenanigans.

  3. #3
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    The worst thing is... they are not even aware of the issue.

    I saw a dev post responding where someone said the halfling master thrower enhancement is broken... and the dev response was "whats broken about it?".
    Dorian

  4. #4
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    Guys, this isn't some small bug. This invalidates entire races and builds from the game...
    Yes. It's clear that a lot of focus has gone into making throwing builds legitimate in the last few updates, but until these bugs get fixed they aren't worth playing.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Yes. It's clear that a lot of focus has gone into making throwing builds legitimate in the last few updates, but until these bugs get fixed they aren't worth playing.
    To my knowledge shuriken are currently treated as ammunition, not weapons. You add poison to them with a poison quiver, and obviously the returning affix is only found on ammunition. Obviously crit enhancements have no effect on ammunition, because ammunition have no crit profiles. This means that the game looks at your equipped offhand weapon and treats the thrown shuriken as a sort of arrow fired by your offhand? I'm not sure on the exact details of what is going on. When shurikens get fixed to weapons with a working crit profile of their own they will only use their own weapon effects, and stop acting like ammunition for the offhand. They will be weaker than they are on live. So get it while its hot.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 11-11-2013 at 04:38 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    To my knowledge shuriken are currently treated as ammunition, not weapons. You add poison to them with a poison quiver, and obviously the returning affix is only found on ammunition. Obviously crit enhancements have no effect on ammunition, because ammunition have no crit profiles. This means that the game looks at your equipped offhand weapon and treats the thrown shuriken as a sort of arrow fired by your offhand? I'm not sure on the exact details of what is going on. When shurikens get fixed to weapons with a working crit profile of their own they will only use their own weapon effects, and stop acting like ammunition for the offhand. They will be weaker than they are on live. So get it while its hot.
    If "Returning" is only found on ammunition, then why do I have axes, hammers, and throwing knives that say "+X Returning" on them?

  7. #7
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    Default Still not working with U20

    Just reconfirmed that the Shuriken Crit Threat enhancement for halflings is still not working for update 20.

    Rolled a 18 with 1/2ling throwing master with improved crit and no dice. Rolled a 19 and I received a crit.

    Devs - please look into this.

  8. #8

  9. #9
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    While we're at it make a "throwing expertese" feat and a "10 thousand throws" feat, so that the only throwing build remotely viable isn't restricted to Shuriken's.

    BTW OP I'm pretty sure all those crit improvers don't work for ANY thrown weapon... but obviously Shurikens are the only choice for thrown weapons so no one's tested any of the others.

    hmmm if this is all tied into them being "ammo" suddenly I want to see if other throwing weapons benefit from 10k stars like arrows do...

    Has anyone with Shuriken Expertese ever tested to see if other throwers sometimes double fire?

    If arrows get 10k stars due to "ammo" status why wouldn't throwers get it too?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    If arrows get 10k stars due to "ammo" status why wouldn't throwers get it too?
    No luck here, tested every permutation I could, I believe that when Arrows/Bows became centered by Zen Archery they unintentionally got the 10k stars benefit, and Turbine lazilly let it go. No way to make the other throwers centered, so none of them get the 10k stars benefit.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

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  12. #12
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    No luck here, tested every permutation I could, I believe that when Arrows/Bows became centered by Zen Archery they unintentionally got the 10k stars benefit, and Turbine lazilly let it go. No way to make the other throwers centered, so none of them get the 10k stars benefit.
    have you tested with Kensai? I would love to see a centered Kensai Throwing hammer or Dagger build. In fact, I might just go test that out.

  13. #13
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    i rolled a fresh PDK 8 Fighter / 6 Monk today and gave it Kensei enhancements up through Tier 5 making the character centered with Light blades. Then I equipped a throwing dagger, and become uncentered.

    You cannot currently be centered with any throwing weapons EXCEPT shuriken, which are horribly broken as far as enhancements are concerned. I have a screenshot, but the uploader system for these forums is so bizarrely rendered in Chrome for Mac that I couldn't get it uploaded, and I have a masters degree.

    This is not bug reported anywhere that I know of.


    CAN WE PLEASE GET A DEV COMMENT ON ANY OF THIS YET FOR PETES SAKE? I've canceled my VIP subscription and will not be renewing it until there is some sort of official recognition of any part of the myriad problems identified with throwing weapons in this thread. Even a simple "we're aware, you're right, and it's on the known issues list" would be enough to get me to start paying $15/month again. Until then, Turbine you get nothing. And I spend money on this game over and above my VIP sub frequently. This is what happens when you ignore problems.

  14. #14
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    BTW OP I'm pretty sure all those crit improvers don't work for ANY thrown weapon... but obviously Shurikens are the only choice for thrown weapons so no one's tested any of the others.
    I don't know about the crit improvers in the OP, but Assassin Tier 5 Knife Specialization gives a +1 Competence bonus to the crit threat range of throwing daggers just fine. Didn't try out Halfling Master Thrower on the same character, since it wouldn't stack as they are both a Competence Bonus, but at least *something* is working on throwers.

  15. #15
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibor View Post
    I don't know about the crit improvers in the OP, but Assassin Tier 5 Knife Specialization gives a +1 Competence bonus to the crit threat range of throwing daggers just fine. Didn't try out Halfling Master Thrower on the same character, since it wouldn't stack as they are both a Competence Bonus, but at least *something* is working on throwers.
    not exctly, i tried.

    With IC Crit Thrown (and IC Pierce, I tested both), and Knife Specialization, you only get Throwing Dggers that are 17-20x3 (I made an entire build around the concept). When you equip a regular dagger, it's 15-20x3. So actually, all that applied to throwing daggers from T5 Assassin is the +1 Competence to Crit Damage, not Crit Threat Range. It would seem ALL Competence Bonuses to crit threat Range for ALL throwing weapons are broken, including Halfling Racial, Assassin T5, Kensei T5, and NInja Master (20 Monk Capstone).

    More and more the problem I'm seeing is:
    1. All competence bonuses to threat range are broken for Throwers
    2. Kensei Centering is also broken with Throwers (tested Daggers, shuriken work because they are always centering).

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    have you tested with Kensai? I would love to see a centered Kensai Throwing hammer or Dagger build. In fact, I might just go test that out.
    Kensei only increases melee weapons, so sadly no thrower Kensei's. I believe this is just laziness on Turbines part, they didn't want repeaters to be able to be centered monk weapons so they made Kensei only melee. They could and should allow throwers, as shuriken would get little benefit (that isn't already available from halfing or assassin or ninja spy) but all the other throwers would pull a little closer. Just need 10k throwers feat and thrower expertese.

    I tested whirling wrists as well, seems to be a little under 10% increase per tier. Very unhappy with the outright falsehood of 60%.

    Maybe if people bug reported this stuff repeatedly they would pay attention.
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-06-2013 at 11:54 PM.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  17. #17
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    The reason they have not commented is because they have no fix and/or they are not working on it. They only seem to post anything if they are working on it or already have fixed it. For better or worse, the devs learned a hard lesson from years ago to not post unless they have something already in the works. I personally have submitted a bug report on this, but the reality is that you won't see a fix anytime soon. It simply is not high on their list. Remember, they really don't do anything anymore unless the result is pulling out your credit card and spending money. So, I would not hold my breath on this fix anytime soon if ever.
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  18. #18
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronClan View Post
    Kensei only increases melee weapons, so sadly no thrower Kensei's. I believe this is just laziness on Turbines part, they didn't want repeaters to be able to be centered monk weapons so they made Kensei only melee. They could and should allow throwers, as shuriken would get little benefit (that isn't already available from halfing or assassin or ninja spy) but all the other throwers would pull a little closer. Just need 10k throwers feat and thrower expertese.

    I tested whirling wrists as well, seems to be a little under 10% increase per tier. Very unhappy with the outright falsehood of 60%.

    Maybe if people bug reported this stuff repeatedly they would pay attention.
    1. For some reason the devs made the idiot decision to only allow centering through kensei with melee weapons. It's makes zero sense. Ninjas had throwing knives and crossbows historically. It's so dumb.

    2. You must be new to ranged combat because all bonuses to ranged attack sped are ~50% less than stated because they only apply to the drawing/loading animation, not the shooting/throwing animation. That's why whirling wrists is 60 (for net 30) and haste gives a 22% speed boost to ranged attack speed instead of 15% like it does for melee.

    3. Several of us in this thread have specifically mentioned bug reporting these issues.

  19. #19
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barecm View Post
    The reason they have not commented is because they have no fix and/or they are not working on it. They only seem to post anything if they are working on it or already have fixed it. For better or worse, the devs learned a hard lesson from years ago to not post unless they have something already in the works. I personally have submitted a bug report on this, but the reality is that you won't see a fix anytime soon. It simply is not high on their list. Remember, they really don't do anything anymore unless the result is pulling out your credit card and spending money. So, I would not hold my breath on this fix anytime soon if ever.
    I agree that they only fix things that have a dollar bottom line. F2P/P2W was the worst thing that ever happened to DDO, and ultimately will be its demise. Everyone gets greedy, and greed ruins everything.

  20. #20
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    1 you asked about Kensei one post ago now you're stating it like you already knew?

    2 not Sure why the passive aggressive tone and the "you must be new" comment I have posts in ranged alacrity test threads much older than this that detail finding about 4-ish percent attack speed increase per stated 10%.

    2b actually ranged alacrity speeds up the throwing animation, feats like quick draw speed the reload animation. It being less than half the animation cycle explains why 10% becomes 4-ish. Or in the case of whirling wrists 60% becomes less (a lot less) than 30-ish.

    I phrased my post the way I did because the description implies an overall increase, and I think people should hold turbine accountable for things like this, because in the end doing so would help Turbine in the long run and improve the game by reducing false expectations and disappointment. I knew 99% I would get less than 60% speed increase, hell I half expected it to not work at all. However that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to be disappointed.

    3 do it some more. Turbine has shown that they will grease the squeaky wheel lately.
    Last edited by IronClan; 12-07-2013 at 05:07 PM.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

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