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Thread: ETR meh.

  1. #81
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    The problem with both off-class Epic Destinies and Epic TR is that it makes no sense as a separate system. You can try to compare it with getting a Heroic Past Life, but it really isn't comparable. In order for Heroic to be comparable you would get a Heroic Past Life by running in off enhancements. The only way this whole TR system really works is to both HTR and ETR - become a Sorc and then run in either Arcane ED, then HTR into a Druid and ETR and change to a ED you want to run your Druid in.

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    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    The problem with both off-class Epic Destinies and Epic TR is that it makes no sense as a separate system. You can try to compare it with getting a Heroic Past Life, but it really isn't comparable. In order for Heroic to be comparable you would get a Heroic Past Life by running in off enhancements. The only way this whole TR system really works is to both HTR and ETR - become a Sorc and then run in either Arcane ED, then HTR into a Druid and ETR and change to a ED you want to run your Druid in.
    That is why it is silly to consider them separate systems
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    The problem with both off-class Epic Destinies and Epic TR is that it makes no sense as a separate system. You can try to compare it with getting a Heroic Past Life, but it really isn't comparable. In order for Heroic to be comparable you would get a Heroic Past Life by running in off enhancements. The only way this whole TR system really works is to both HTR and ETR - become a Sorc and then run in either Arcane ED, then HTR into a Druid and ETR and change to a ED you want to run your Druid in.
    That is why they made a mistake giving us options. If they had forced us to work on divine destinies only when playing divine classes then people would have TRed into clerics and paladins and then worked on their divine ED's. Instead they gave us the option to work in an off destiny without TRing first and they have been whined at ever since. If you want to work on divine ED's then Heroic TR into a paladin or cleric. Just because they gave us the option to play in off destinies does not mean it is a wise idea.

    It is sad, the more options they give players the more they complain. People want linear hand-holding throughout the game. Apparently they need to add a warning screen when you change ED's. Something along the lines of, "Are you sure you want to play your fighter in this off destiny? He will be weak compared to what he could be. If you really want to work on this ED for the next 54 million experience it would be wise to first heroic TR into a cleric, but we will give you the option to play like a moron in this off destiny if that is what you want. Are you sure that is what you want?" Obviously I am being needlessly rude here, but when people make the choice to intentionally gimp themselves (by choosing to play in an off destiny rather than heroic TR into an appropriate class) they then complain to Turbine that the option is even there. I like options but this one doesn't seem to be worth it. If they had simply made it so that you could only build divine destinies when play divine classes from the beginning, we would have far fewer complaints (which is sad because the lesson learned is not to give players options).
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

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    They should simply have made earning these extras depend on xp alone without linking them to the different spheres. Just call them something else rather than past lives.

    Earn 10 mill XP and you get to pick whichever shiny you want from the list Redo up to umpteen times or however many shinies there are. No need to reset to level 20 or any other fuzz. Just plan add a Karma counter and whenever it reaches 10 mill xp you pick one "ability" that you want (and this costs some sort of heart that you can either earn through vcomms or buy in the store).

  5. #85
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    It is sad, the more options they give players the more they complain.
    You call these options? The only option you have is gimp yourself for a PL that is minute or just do what you have been doing for the past few months. They have to keep content simple enough that any weekend pugger can complete it. There is absolutely NO reason to strive for epic PL’s unless you are just bored and like grinding at epic levels. If they were to make difficult content that required all of this extra grind, half the forums would be moaning that their gimp can’t handle it.

    I won’t complain as I have no interest in the epic PL thing though. I won’t get back in the hamster wheel until it is crucial for “hard” content.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    You call these options? The only option you have is gimp yourself for a PL that is minute or just do what you have been doing for the past few months. They have to keep content simple enough that any weekend pugger can complete it. There is absolutely NO reason to strive for epic PL’s unless you are just bored and like grinding at epic levels. If they were to make difficult content that required all of this extra grind, half the forums would be moaning that their gimp can’t handle it.

    I won’t complain as I have no interest in the epic PL thing though. I won’t get back in the hamster wheel until it is crucial for “hard” content.
    You have the option of enjoying yourself, but seem unable to take it. You have a lot of options, its your choice to take them or leave them. Just having been around from 2006 does not make you any more entitled to have exactly what you want to happen, happen.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    You have the option of enjoying yourself, but seem unable to take it. You have a lot of options, its your choice to take them or leave them. Just having been around from 2006 does not make you any more entitled to have exactly what you want to happen, happen.
    No. But as a player he is as entitled as anyone else to have an opinion on the game.

    The constant need of Turbine to create systems of "pain for gain" is just not that compelling to me.

    These are not the only options that have to be created. They are simply the options Turbine has decided to give us. The system doesn't have to have anything at all to do with TRing iin any way. Turbine could have just as easily made it a simple progressive system without any ties to needing to rerun EDs and re-leveling. There is no special "sense" or "lore" about it. It's a system of codes. It is not inherently about anything other than what the developers want it to be about. Just name it something else and it becomes something else.

    But I'm curious; exactly what do you think is so great about this system? Do you really think it is fun to basically de-level a character to earn new abilities? And to gate some of those abilities behind playing in specific destinies that can make you either TR completely to level 1 as an appropriate class or just settle for playing in a destiny that does little if anything for your character? Or just not bother playing in that system?

    Are you against those of us who are still asking for more options that would suit our playstyle better?

  8. #88
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    That is why they made a mistake giving us options. If they had forced us to work on divine destinies only when playing divine classes then people would have TRed into clerics and paladins and then worked on their divine ED's. Instead they gave us the option to work in an off destiny without TRing first and they have been whined at ever since. If you want to work on divine ED's then Heroic TR into a paladin or cleric. Just because they gave us the option to play in off destinies does not mean it is a wise idea.

    It is sad, the more options they give players the more they complain. People want linear hand-holding throughout the game. Apparently they need to add a warning screen when you change ED's. Something along the lines of, "Are you sure you want to play your fighter in this off destiny? He will be weak compared to what he could be. If you really want to work on this ED for the next 54 million experience it would be wise to first heroic TR into a cleric, but we will give you the option to play like a moron in this off destiny if that is what you want. Are you sure that is what you want?" Obviously I am being needlessly rude here, but when people make the choice to intentionally gimp themselves (by choosing to play in an off destiny rather than heroic TR into an appropriate class) they then complain to Turbine that the option is even there. I like options but this one doesn't seem to be worth it. If they had simply made it so that you could only build divine destinies when play divine classes from the beginning, we would have far fewer complaints (which is sad because the lesson learned is not to give players options).

    Why are you really against asking for more options? Who cares that Turbine is being "whined at"? What does it hurt? Their feelings? Please.

    We don't much like the options. You are full of it if you think that if they had given us less options that there would have been less complaints.

    Not everyone feels that the TR aspect of the game is incredibly fun. What you call the "wise" way to play is not necessarily the fun way to certain players. And when there are options that are not any better than each other to certain players, exactly what is wrong with asking for an option that we might prefer? Because all that we are doing is asking Turbine to create a system that we would like to play, so that we will play.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    That is why they made a mistake giving us options. If they had forced us to work on divine destinies only when playing divine classes then people would have TRed into clerics and paladins and then worked on their divine ED's. Instead they gave us the option to work in an off destiny without TRing first and they have been whined at ever since. If you want to work on divine ED's then Heroic TR into a paladin or cleric. Just because they gave us the option to play in off destinies does not mean it is a wise idea.

    It is sad, the more options they give players the more they complain. People want linear hand-holding throughout the game. Apparently they need to add a warning screen when you change ED's. Something along the lines of, "Are you sure you want to play your fighter in this off destiny? He will be weak compared to what he could be. If you really want to work on this ED for the next 54 million experience it would be wise to first heroic TR into a cleric, but we will give you the option to play like a moron in this off destiny if that is what you want. Are you sure that is what you want?" Obviously I am being needlessly rude here, but when people make the choice to intentionally gimp themselves (by choosing to play in an off destiny rather than heroic TR into an appropriate class) they then complain to Turbine that the option is even there. I like options but this one doesn't seem to be worth it. If they had simply made it so that you could only build divine destinies when play divine classes from the beginning, we would have far fewer complaints (which is sad because the lesson learned is not to give players options).
    The problem with your perception is that Turbine WANTS us to run in off destinies. Don't forget that originally EDs were introduced without Epic TR. Since EDs were not a part of the TR system, you can't say that its silly to run your character in an off destiny. If a player doesn't want to participate in TRing at all then they probably will be running in off destinies in order to gain twists or maybe for something to do.

    My point wasn't that the players are silly for running in off-EDs but that the system is silly.

  10. #90
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    No. But as a player he is as entitled as anyone else to have an opinion on the game.

    The constant need of Turbine to create systems of "pain for gain" is just not that compelling to me.

    These are not the only options that have to be created. They are simply the options Turbine has decided to give us. The system doesn't have to have anything at all to do with TRing iin any way. Turbine could have just as easily made it a simple progressive system without any ties to needing to rerun EDs and re-leveling. There is no special "sense" or "lore" about it. It's a system of codes. It is not inherently about anything other than what the developers want it to be about. Just name it something else and it becomes something else.

    But I'm curious; exactly what do you think is so great about this system? Do you really think it is fun to basically de-level a character to earn new abilities? And to gate some of those abilities behind playing in specific destinies that can make you either TR completely to level 1 as an appropriate class or just settle for playing in a destiny that does little if anything for your character? Or just not bother playing in that system?

    Are you against those of us who are still asking for more options that would suit our playstyle better?
    Im against you, yes, since you do not care for anything except your own playstyle.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    You have the option of enjoying yourself, but seem unable to take it. You have a lot of options, its your choice to take them or leave them. Just having been around from 2006 does not make you any more entitled to have exactly what you want to happen, happen.
    I know what fun to me is, and if I was not having fun in DDO, I would simply uninstall. I am just sharing my opinion in a thread titled “ETR meh”. Nowhere did you see me post that you were an idiot for jumping in the hamster wheel and you did not see me belittle you for having fun in whatever means you find fun.

    My point was and is that you do not need these PL’s to be super-duper. You do not have to go grind all of this xp to be a contributor in the hardest content in the game. I am not complaining that the game is too easy. I did not see Turbine was idiots and I am not forecasting doom at all in my post.

    IMO, once again not flaming just my opinion, grinding an EPL is no different that grinding out a regular heroic PL. Sure you might get a +1 to hit or some other minimal thing, but it is not worth the grind when you are already stream rolling mobs now.

    P.S. I have a toon with 21 lives atm and that was because I like doing heroic content. After a while you learn that no matter how many lives or gear that you have it is all easy if you know how to play. If you feel that earning 6.6 mill xp (will go up when lvl cap is 30) is worth the minimal gains, by all means do it, but it is really unnecessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Why are you really against asking for more options? Who cares that Turbine is being "whined at"? What does it hurt? Their feelings? Please.

    We don't much like the options. You are full of it if you think that if they had given us less options that there would have been less complaints.

    Not everyone feels that the TR aspect of the game is incredibly fun. What you call the "wise" way to play is not necessarily the fun way to certain players. And when there are options that are not any better than each other to certain players, exactly what is wrong with asking for an option that we might prefer? Because all that we are doing is asking Turbine to create a system that we would like to play, so that we will play.
    There is nothing wrong with asking for options. I want +5 tomes to drop in all content including Korthos. That is the option I want. It is not going to happen. We have to keep our options limited to what seems reasonable. +5 tomes are not going to drop in a level 1 quest. It doesn't seem reasonable so it is not going to happen. You are not going to be able to earn a heroic sorcerer past life by playing a pure fighter. It doesn't seem reasonable so it is not going to happen. If they had said from the beginning you cannot use an ED that is not in the sphere of your character we would have understood why. It would have seemed reasonable and we would have accepted it. Because they gave us the option to use off destinies it expanded what seems reasonable. Now people truly believe it is reasonable to earn a divine epic past life without ever playing any divine ED nor even playing a divine class. They think they should be able to play a fighter in LD and get a divine epic past life. That is the result of letting people play in off destines. If they had never given us that option then the mere suggestion of earning divine epic past lives without playing in a divine ED would have been laughed off the table by almost everyone (the way people that want to earn a sorcerer heroic past life without ever playing a sorcerer are quickly dismissed). The idea for more and more unreasonable requests came from giving is the ability to play in off destinies to begin with.

    I personally am very glad they let us play in off destines, but I am not sure giving us that option was worth it. All I ever hear about off destinies are complaints. Instead of being glad that we can earn all of our fate points in a single life instead of having to TR 3 times just to get to all the different spheres (which is what would have been required if they had not let us leave our sphere) people are constantly complaining about being bored playing in off destinies. The fact that they are choosing to play in off destinies rather than TR into an appropriate class seems to escape them. If you give people the choice to ruin their own fun people will complain that the choice even exists (as is the case with playing in off destinies). More choices are only good if they are in the hands of people responsible enough to take credit for their decisions. If you choose to play in an off destiny that is not Turbines fault unless you really believe that where Turbine went wrong was letting you make your own decisions.
    Everyone who is not in the true definition of "hardcore" is looked down on as a "casual", unwilling or incapable of understanding the true brilliance of having twelve-year-olds insult you while they are teabagging your virtual corpse. - Christian Ward columnist for The Escapist

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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    All I ever hear about off destinies are complaints.
    Maybe because it sucks, it's not fun, and it's the dumbest idea ever to make it into a game?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    TRing was also brilliant because it meant that the old raid-gear was still useful. In other games, level-cap goes up, new items come out, and your old stuff is worthless... With TR, my old gear is still useful.
    TR was brilliant because a large number of people pay turbine money for a new life instead of deleting the character to make room and then making a new alt from scratch to run through content on an existing character slot.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Give us content, rather than a hamster wheel.
    Done!!!! but the next quest will involve running in giant space hamster wheels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    Im against you, yes, since you do not care for anything except your own playstyle.
    LOL. What does that even mean? How am I against anyone else's playstyle? How does asking for an option to make the game more enticing to someone like me mean that I "do not care for anything except my own playstyle"?

    What exactly don't I care about? What am I supposed to care about?

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    There is nothing wrong with asking for options. I want +5 tomes to drop in all content including Korthos. That is the option I want. It is not going to happen. We have to keep our options limited to what seems reasonable. +5 tomes are not going to drop in a level 1 quest. It doesn't seem reasonable so it is not going to happen. You are not going to be able to earn a heroic sorcerer past life by playing a pure fighter. It doesn't seem reasonable so it is not going to happen. If they had said from the beginning you cannot use an ED that is not in the sphere of your character we would have understood why. It would have seemed reasonable and we would have accepted it. Because they gave us the option to use off destinies it expanded what seems reasonable. Now people truly believe it is reasonable to earn a divine epic past life without ever playing any divine ED nor even playing a divine class. They think they should be able to play a fighter in LD and get a divine epic past life. That is the result of letting people play in off destines. If they had never given us that option then the mere suggestion of earning divine epic past lives without playing in a divine ED would have been laughed off the table by almost everyone (the way people that want to earn a sorcerer heroic past life without ever playing a sorcerer are quickly dismissed). The idea for more and more unreasonable requests came from giving is the ability to play in off destinies to begin with.

    I personally am very glad they let us play in off destines, but I am not sure giving us that option was worth it. All I ever hear about off destinies are complaints. Instead of being glad that we can earn all of our fate points in a single life instead of having to TR 3 times just to get to all the different spheres (which is what would have been required if they had not let us leave our sphere) people are constantly complaining about being bored playing in off destinies. The fact that they are choosing to play in off destinies rather than TR into an appropriate class seems to escape them. If you give people the choice to ruin their own fun people will complain that the choice even exists (as is the case with playing in off destinies). More choices are only good if they are in the hands of people responsible enough to take credit for their decisions. If you choose to play in an off destiny that is not Turbines fault unless you really believe that where Turbine went wrong was letting you make your own decisions.
    No, it does not escape them that they could reincarnate to a more "appropriate" class. Some people just don't want to have to reincarnate to be able to advance their characters. Turbine made the system allowing off-destinies because they wanted to keep players playing for Fate Points. They knew damn well that forcing players to have to reincarnate to earn Fate Points in different destinies would not have gone over very well at all. Especially when they introduced a system that you had to pay to participate in and was supposed to be about "Epic Endgame".

    The ED system was supposed to appeal to people who DON'T WANT TO TR but would rather play at endgame instead. This latest thing; this Epic TR? This is just Turbine being too lazy to create an actual endgame and so instead create another system to extend the content that already exists rather than having to worry about creating new content.

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    Personally, the resolution I'd like to see to the whole off-destiny issue would be for them to broaden the appeal and compatibility of epic destinies across the board. Epic destinies shouldn't give caster levels only to select sub-groups of classes: they probably shouldn't give caster levels at all, just fold that into regular epic levelling. Divorce the abilities as much as possible from the heroic baseline of the character, so that if you want (or feel like you have) to play your fighter, eg., as a draconic incarnation, then you can still have fun doing it and be effective in difficult content. They're part of the way there already, but all the stuff that says things like "per caster level" should become "per character level" and abilities that rely on specific stats or that only help specific heroic base builds (like a lot of the arcane cores) should be made more universal. This would not only remove a lot of the negative feeling associated with, for example, acquiring fate points, it'd also make for much greater build diversity at end game because you might actually be able to get a usable dragon breath on your fighter, or whatever.

    I'm not sure we'll ever see it, but I think that'd be pretty sweet.

    As for the grind and the hamster wheel, I don't think going back to level 20 necessarily has to be seen as a pain-for-gain thing: just like heroic True Reincarnation, it can also be an invitation to replay earlier content, perhaps from a slightly different perspective. It's just that (a) there's not as much of a spread of content at epic level yet, so it might feel more like grinding, and (b) the narrowness of good destiny options limits the extent of the perspective shift. If you could play your heroic fighter 20 as either a firebreathing dragontouched tough guy or a shapeshifting behemoth tree dude and get great results, then the system would probably seem like it offered more potential rediscovery than if you feel like you can't do those things because they need caster levels you don't have, benefit base abilities you don't possess, and require stats you're not focused on.

  19. #99
    Community Member deahamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    That is why they made a mistake giving us options. If they had forced us to work on divine destinies only when playing divine classes then people would have TRed into clerics and paladins and then worked on their divine ED's. Instead they gave us the option to work in an off destiny without TRing first and they have been whined at ever since. If you want to work on divine ED's then Heroic TR into a paladin or cleric. Just because they gave us the option to play in off destinies does not mean it is a wise idea.

    It is sad, the more options they give players the more they complain. People want linear hand-holding throughout the game. Apparently they need to add a warning screen when you change ED's. Something along the lines of, "Are you sure you want to play your fighter in this off destiny? He will be weak compared to what he could be. If you really want to work on this ED for the next 54 million experience it would be wise to first heroic TR into a cleric, but we will give you the option to play like a moron in this off destiny if that is what you want. Are you sure that is what you want?" Obviously I am being needlessly rude here, but when people make the choice to intentionally gimp themselves (by choosing to play in an off destiny rather than heroic TR into an appropriate class) they then complain to Turbine that the option is even there. I like options but this one doesn't seem to be worth it. If they had simply made it so that you could only build divine destinies when play divine classes from the beginning, we would have far fewer complaints (which is sad because the lesson learned is not to give players options).
    Oh heavens help us! Some people should never be clerics or FvS!!!!

    While your idea is grand, there are some builds that are best with a certain ED but we cannot start there. Or even classes. I hated started in arcane as an artificer. Whoever thought of that should be slapped silly, and my arti was at least a caster/xbow hybrid and not pure xbow/rune-arm.

    I did not particularly enjoy TR-ing and the prospect of 3rd+ life did not tickle my fancy. I needed a carrot for that because I'm not one of those who TR-s because they love to rerun the same quests endlessly. They took the carrot away and then added a stronger carrot, EDs, and f-ed it up on my main. I'm glad I don't have to roll rogue for 20+ levels to get the rogue ED, but having to do bard ED to get to rogue is only less annoying than crippling lag.
    But I think having to run a rogue for rogue ED on my poor arti would be less painful than seeing certain peoplez I know as FvS or cleric. I'm glad I wasn't around when some people did their divine lives for completionist... was painful enough watching a WF arti expect me to cast heal on them cause their mana was better spent on spells... didn't need to see THAT mess on a cleric. BRRRRRRRRRR.... You give me nightmares, sir!
    Toons on Orien:
    Daemonav Atreides: WF artificer (TR 2/14)////Irullan Atreides: human FvS (TR 2/?!?)////Lorrellei Atreides: human ice/acid sorcerer////Aliademon Atreides: elf PM necro/enchant wizzie (TR 2/8)

  20. #100
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    LOL. What does that even mean? How am I against anyone else's playstyle? How does asking for an option to make the game more enticing to someone like me mean that I "do not care for anything except my own playstyle"?

    What exactly don't I care about? What am I supposed to care about?
    Your suppose to care about my feelings, and if you suggest anything that makes my feelings turn to butthurt then Im against you..........you...you.......bad man you!!!! There are enough options and the options there are suit me to a tee just fine so I gets mad when anyone suggest there be moar options cause there doesn't need to be any.........even if I can still keep access to my options but other people will get more, because only what I want matters..............only I see the light....I don't know why other people have different opinions and it just makes me go crazy thinking of someone else getting something they want thats different to what I want......even if I still get what I want..............you getting the picture here yet?

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