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  1. #1
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    Default Could this be viable in EE (17monk/2pally/1clr)

    So I was tossing some ideas around after hearing about how great cocoon is for healing (Never really ran much in primal so haven't had a great deal to do with it) but decided to throw a theory build together incorporating that, divine might and excellent saves with all the goodness that is monk.

    So,

    Human 8 Feats + Monk 3 feats + 3 Epic = 14 Feats
    Add 2 Destiny feats + Paladin Deity + Monk light/dark path = 18 Choices

    Feats:(In no particular order)
    1.Bow Strength
    2.Stunning Fist
    3.Point Blank Shot
    4.Weapon Focus Ranged
    5.Monk PL
    6.Two weapon fighting
    7.Improved two weapon
    8.Greater two weapon
    9.10k Stars
    10.Zen archery
    11.Improved Critical Bludgeon
    12.Grand Master of Forms
    13.Vorpal Strikes
    14.Improved martial Arts

    Destiny:
    1.Perfect two weapon fighting
    2.Tactician

    Deity: Silver Flame
    Monk:Light Path

    Skills: Max UMD, Concentration, Balance, Heal

    Starting Stats:

    Strength 16 +5 Tome
    Dexterity 14 +3 Tome
    Constitution 14 +3 Tome
    Intelligence 8 +3 Tome
    Wisdom 16 +5 Tome
    Charisma 12 +3 Tome

    (I am clearly not a power gamer with +5's everywhere)

    Level ups: 5 Wisdom, 2 Strength


    Enhancements:

    Human: 17 AP

    Core Damage Boost
    Core Wisdom
    Action Surge: Strength +3
    Action Surge: Charisma +3
    Action Surge: Wisdom +2
    Improved Recovery Tier 1,3,4



    Shintao: 37 AP
    Cores to Argent Fist (4th core)
    Deft Strikes (Rank 3)
    Smite Tainted Creature (Rank 1)
    Iron Skin (Rank 3)
    Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
    Conditioning (Rank 3)
    Jade Strike (Rank 1)
    Wisdom (Rank 1)
    Instinctive Defense (Rank 1)
    Wisdom (Rank 1)
    Violence Begets Violence (Rank 1)
    Meditation of War (Rank 1)
    Empty Hand Mastery (Rank 1)

    Ninja Spy: 15 AP
    Cores to Shadow Veil (3rd Core)
    Sneak Attack Training Tier 1,2,3
    Acrobatic (Rank 3)
    Unbalancing Strike (Rank 1)
    Agility (Rank 2)

    Warpriest: 7 AP
    Smite Foe (Rank 1)
    Divine Might (Rank 3)
    Toughness (Rank 3)

    Divine Disciple: 4 AP
    Core 1
    Spell Points +3

    Destiny: Grandmaster of Flowers

    Twists:
    Sense Weakness
    +6 LD Combat DC's
    Rejuvenation Cocoon

    The 2 level ups in strength were to qualify for overwhelming critical should I feel that is more valuable than either the vorpal fists or improved martial arts, 2 Paladin levels are pretty much exclusively for Cha to saves, 1 Cleric for Wis based blue bar and Divine might.


    Now explain to me all the reasons this will not work
    Last edited by Viren1; 11-09-2013 at 02:25 AM. Reason: Americans spell stuff weird...
    Officer - Kingdom of Draconis guild on Argonnessen
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  2. #2
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viren1 View Post
    Now explain to me all the reasons this will not work
    In short, yes it could be viable in EE with the right gear. But the build itself could also be a lot better.

    You've got a good amount of survivability here, but you will find the damage lacking for EE. Most notably, you take five (5!) feats for ranged combat, but no Manyshot. You're leaving a massive amount of burst DPS on the table there.

    It is tough to fit in manyshot without some levels of ranger, so the first thing to consider would be swapping the paladin levels for ranger. That gives you a massive amount of extra leeway in the build due to the free feats (TWF, bow strength, rapid shot), which would free up feats for at least IC:ranged and manyshot. It also should make it possible to fit in Empower Healing, which is a very nice boost to your cocoon. That is all at the cost of just the charisma mod to saves bonus from paladin.

    If you go with the original class choice, then I'd drop all the ranged feats, pick up overwhelming critical and empower healing and not try to bite off more than you can chew feat-wise.

    The last question I have is what you're getting out of those last two monk levels? 15 monk for QP is solid, but what does 17 get you, really? I'd be inclined to go 15 monk, 4 ranger, 1 cleric on an EE-focused monkcher. Alternatively, 15 monk, 3 cleric, 2 paladin would be good for a non-ranged character that uses smite foe + smite weakness. Stacking vulnerable on a boss is a great way to boost the group's DPS, and will go a long way towards increasing the viability of your character in EE.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post

    You've got a good amount of survivability here, but you will find the damage lacking for EE. Most notably, you take five (5!) feats for ranged combat, but no Manyshot. You're leaving a massive amount of burst DPS on the table there.

    It is tough to fit in manyshot without some levels of ranger, so the first thing to consider would be swapping the paladin levels for ranger. That gives you a massive amount of extra leeway in the build due to the free feats (TWF, bow strength, rapid shot), which would free up feats for at least IC:ranged and manyshot. It also should make it possible to fit in Empower Healing, which is a very nice boost to your cocoon. That is all at the cost of just the charisma mod to saves bonus from paladin.
    I had feared that the damage was going to end up lacking. I kind of put 10 thousand stars in in lieu of manyshot, but I haven't played a monkcher yet so not sure how comparable it is. If ranged was cut entirely from the build, then that would free up those 5 feats for, Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Overwhelming Critical, Empower Heal?

    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    The last question I have is what you're getting out of those last two monk levels? 15 monk for QP is solid, but what does 17 get you, really? I'd be inclined to go 15 monk, 4 ranger, 1 cleric on an EE-focused monkcher. Alternatively, 15 monk, 3 cleric, 2 paladin would be good for a non-ranged character that uses smite foe + smite weakness. Stacking vulnerable on a boss is a great way to boost the group's DPS, and will go a long way towards increasing the viability of your character in EE.
    The main reason for the extra monk levels is to minimise the cost on unarmed strike, although that only really requires 16 monk to get to 3[d8] (loss of.5 over pure monk) and the adamantine ki strike (one less dr thing I need to swap wraps for). The second monk level only gets timeless body which is nothing; so that could either become 2 Cleric for a small boost to Spell points, or 3 Paladin for fear and disease immunity and aura of courage. In that case I would probably lean more towards the extra Paladin level.
    Last edited by Viren1; 11-08-2013 at 03:58 PM. Reason: Forgot OC Prereqs
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  4. #4
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viren1 View Post
    I had feared that the damage was going to end up lacking. I kind of put 10 thousand stars in in lieu of manyshot, but I haven't played a monkcher yet so not sure how comparable it is. If ranged was cut entirely from the build, then that would free up those 5 feats for, Power attack, Improved Sunder, Overwhelming Critical, Empower Heal and Dodge?
    10k Stars is a great way to keep your ranged damage up when manyshot is off timer. But in my experience it is like the icing on manyshot's cake (or perhaps more accurately the little decorative bits of icing that spell out "happy birthday" on top of the icing and cake that is manyshot).

    Don't forget that Overwhelming critical requires cleave and great cleave, which you can get instead of improved sunder and dodge. You're going human, so make sure to create a male character. Great cleave unarmed with male humans is very nice as it procs off-hand and double strikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viren1 View Post
    The main reason for the extra monk levels is to minimise the cost on unarmed strike, although that only really requires 16 monk to get to 3[d8] (loss of.5 over pure monk) and the adamantine ki strike (one less dr thing I need to swap wraps for). The second monk level only gets timeless body which is nothing; so that could either become 2 Cleric for a small boost to Spell points, or 3 Paladin for fear and disease immunity and aura of courage. In that case I would probably lean more towards the extra Paladin level.
    I like the 16 monk idea. I'd definitely go 2/2 paladin and cleric on a pure melee build. Smite foe, the tier 1 core ability in the warpriest tree, is a nice attack unarmed. 2nd level cleric lets you take smite weakness, which is a great way to quickly tack on up to 20% extra damage for your whole party on boss mobs, and is still a solid DPS boost for yourself on trash mobs. It procs off of each off-hand and doublestrike attack, so one click of smite can in theory increase damage by 12%. That's much better than the aura in my opinion.
    Last edited by whomhead; 11-08-2013 at 04:42 PM. Reason: quotes are hard

  5. #5
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    I will keep that in mind, my only concern with the smites and smite weakness is how quickly the stacks disappear, with the 15s cooldown on smite and stacks disappearing every 3s, it wouldn't take much for the whole stack to go. Especially if spamming fists of light/earth strikes. Attack cycle would go something along the lines of Stunning fist, Quivering Palm, FoL, Iron fist, Earth 2, Earth 3, Earth finisher then smite. Which is still skipping the AoE cleaves (which had 2 feats spent on them) and all the GMoF abilites....

    I suppose with the Charisma to saves, the only problem with fear is the roll of a 1... so that would negate one benefit of the extra pally level. To get smite weakness I suppose pulling 2 ranks of toughness from warpriest tree to get it wouldn't hurt that much. Immunity to disease is negated by remove disease pots. At which point it basically comes down to will smite fit in nicely to the attack progression without someone else also using it, base saves, 30 sp and BAB...

    Cleric wins out on the SP and Smite, assuming it can comfortably fit into the progression, if it doesn't then cleric starts to lose out. Paladin bonus feats aren't spectacular, but does offer +1 reflex over Clr and +1 to hit. Given the 30SP is nothing with the availability of mnemonic pots it seems to me that the Paladin is probably still the better choice?
    Officer - Kingdom of Draconis guild on Argonnessen
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  6. #6

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    Paladin is a good choice in that the bonus to saves from aura grow as the game inflates. With +11/3/1 item bonuses and +5 from tomes, you're on the way to have impressive stats to lift the saves. There is a build floating around for a paladin monkcher that does great soloing EE.

    Evens are better for monk levels as QP/SF are based on ML/2. If you drop a lot of monk levels, you can disregard it a little.

    The benefit of a casting class is that you get Magical Training. That means you can keep rolling out Cocoons even if you'd otherwise be OOM as you regenerate mana.

    16 monk / 2 fighter / 2 paladin would be an interesting melee option, with the fighter levels allowing you to recover 3 DC to QP/SF. Any melee in EE can be touch and go. Otherwise go 12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 paladin for ranged option.

    By the way, the 16/2/2 is a build I will run after doing my Iconic TR cycles. Notwithstanding what I just said, I am also considering 15/3/2 with 3 fighter levels allowing improved mobility for 3% bonus to dodge cap.

    This guy has an interesting 16 monk / 2 cleric / 2 fighter build. You can vary it for a paladin, losing some feats and different APs. Link here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...st-monk-for-EE
    Last edited by Fafnir; 11-09-2013 at 03:47 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    The benefit of a casting class is that you get Magical Training. That means you can keep rolling out Cocoons even if you'd otherwise be OOM as you regenerate mana.
    This is essentially why the cleric level is there. Main reason for taking it is to have the blue bar to power Cocoon, Divine might is just a small bonus from attaining a moderate Cha which UMD will benefit from anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    16 monk / 2 fighter / 2 paladin would be an interesting melee option, with the fighter levels allowing you to recover 3 DC to QP/SF. Any melee in EE can be touch and go. Otherwise go 12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 paladin for ranged option.
    This version however will be missing the blue bar. Paladins can't cast spells untill 4th level, and even then it is a small sp pool, Meaning you would need to rely on an alternate form of healing. Although the extra DC from the fighter levels would be nice, I can't see a way of fitting it without either losing too many monk levels or losing cocoon as self healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    This guy has an interesting 16 monk / 2 cleric / 2 fighter build. You can vary it for a paladin, losing some feats and different APs. Link here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...st-monk-for-EE
    That is in interesting build, looks focussed primarily stun damage from what I could see there. However as it stands right now the Dark monk abilites seem a bit lackluster in comparison to Shintao. Touch of death proccing multiple times each strike and shadow fade were the two main reasons to go dark, but ToD got clubbed by the nerfbat and now shintao monks can pick up the sneak damage spending the points to get shadow fade and not really lose out.
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  8. #8
    Community Member scottmike0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viren1 View Post
    *snip*
    Try
    4 fighter 12 monk 4 ranger elf

    Pro's
    still keeps incorporeal
    spec for arcane archer
    always able to change stances when going to an enhancement person-
    so you could be full damage with wraps and still be able to use your bow
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 28 Lawful Good Elf Male
    (4 Fighter \ 12 Monk \ 4 Ranger \ 8 Epic) 
    Hit Points: 397
    Spell Points: 123 
    BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
    Fortitude: 19
    Reflex: 17
    Will: 17
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 28)
    Strength             14                    17
    Dexterity            17                    19
    Constitution         14                    16
    Intelligence          9                    11
    Wisdom               16                    25
    Charisma              9                    11
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 28)
    Balance               3                    12
    Bluff                -1                     8
    Concentration         2                    11
    Diplomacy            -1                     8
    Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
    Haggle               -1                     8
    Heal                  3                    15
    Hide                  3                    12
    Intimidate           -1                     8
    Jump                  2                    11
    Listen                3                    17
    Move Silently         3                    12
    Open Lock             n/a                  n/a
    Perform              n/a                    n/a
    Repair               -1                     8
    Search               -1                    10
    Spellcraft           -1                     8
    Spot                  3                    17
    Swim                  2                    11
    Tumble                n/a                  n/a
    Use Magic Device      1                    10
    
    Level 1 (Monk)
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Zen Archery
    
    
    Level 3 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 4 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 6 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    
    
    Level 7 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 8 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Manyshot
    
    
    Level 9 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 10 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 11 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
    
    
    Level 12 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 13 (Monk)
    
    
    Level 14 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Ten Thousand Stars
    
    
    Level 15 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms
    
    
    Level 16 (Monk)
    
    
    Level 17 (Monk)
    
    
    Level 18 (Monk)
    Feat: (Selected) Grandmaster of Forms
    
    
    Level 19 (Monk)
    
    
    Level 20 (Monk)
    Enhancement: Elf - Elven Accuracy (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Elf - Child of Nature (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Elf - Aerenal Weapon Training (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Elf - Arcane Fluidity (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Elf - Arcane Fluidity (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Elf - Enchantment Lore (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Elf - Arcanum (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Elf - Arcane Archer (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Arcane Archer (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Morphic Arrows (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Metalline Arrows (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Aligned Arrows (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Conjure Arrows (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Energy of the Wild (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Corrosive Arrows (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Dispelling Shot (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Dispelling Shot (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Dispelling Shot (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Shattermantle Shot (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Shattermantle Shot (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Terror Arrows (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Terror Arrows (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Terror Arrows (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Banishing Arrows (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Smiting Arrows (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Protection from Tainted Creatures (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Hand (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Restoring the Balance (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Reed in the Wind (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Reed in the Wind (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Reed in the Wind (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - The Receptive Earth (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Smite Tainted Creature (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Lifting the Veil (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Jade Strike (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Dismissing Strike (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Difficulty at the Beginning (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Empty Hand Mastery (Rank 1)
    
    
    Level 21 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Epic: Improved Martial Arts
    
    
    Level 22 (Epic)
    
    
    Level 23 (Epic)
    
    
    Level 24 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Epic: Vorpal Strikes
    
    
    Level 25 (Epic)
    
    
    Level 26 (Epic)
    Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Tactician
    
    
    Level 27 (Epic)
    Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed
    
    
    Level 28 (Epic)
    Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Elusive Target
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Paralyzing  Arrows (Rank 1)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Paralyzing  Arrows (Rank 2)
    Enhancement: Arcane Archer (Elf) - Paralyzing  Arrows (Rank 3)
    Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Argent Fist (Rank 1)
    just ignore enhancements- i just put random ones

    criticisms ready

  9. #9
    Community Member gnarledmaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viren1 View Post
    So I was tossing some ideas around ...
    FWIW, I began playing a toon about a year ago that became a 6 Radiant Servant/6 Knight/8 Shintao. What my original intent was I suppose is now irrelevant as that was before the enhancements pass.

    I enjoyed playing it a great deal. The way I built it, it worked something like a Holy Tempest with some great UMD thrown in. Feat starved for what I had hoped to build and without the best gear, the DPS was acceptable but not the best. The resilience he had due to saves and UMD often made him the last one standing to pick up the party when a wipe was imminent and his RS abilities enabling him to work as an extra rest shrine were certainly appreciated.

    I had been considering TRing him, then I heard about the new pending expansion being primarily undead at the new endgame. I got to thinking about the Energy Bursts, Divine Might empowered Divine Sacrifices and Exalted Smites, the paladins Divine Light, and of course the Shintaos Fists of Light, and have decided to push forward to see what he can do.

    I supect that all of that positive/light slinging around in a room full of undead has to be worth something. I suspect that I will be pleasantly surprised....

  10. #10
    Community Member Kerthyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viren1 View Post
    This is essentially why the cleric level is there. Main reason for taking it is to have the blue bar to power Cocoon, Divine might is just a small bonus from attaining a moderate Cha which UMD will benefit from anyway.
    You could just get a wizardry, power, or archmagi item to power cocoon. I use that on my pure monk.
    Orien- Kelerak(completionist)/Cetus, Keleryn/Zeus, Kertha/Ice Bard, Kelerah/Barbarian
    ]

  11. #11
    Community Member Culver.Civello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    You're going human, so make sure to create a male character. Great cleave unarmed with male humans is very nice as it procs off-hand and double strikes.
    Where in the world did you get this from? XD

    Lost Legions of Sarlona................................. Tyrs Paladium of Ghallanda
    Kobay . Kobai . Artisti . Kobot . Ezike . Dynic.......................... Ezike . Kobai

  12. #12
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Culver.Civello View Post
    Where in the world did you get this from? XD
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ttacks-unarmed

    Basically, I noticed that great cleave was actually living up to its illustrious title (great) on my monk. I posted as much here, and then others chimed in saying how bad it was on their characters. A bit of digging led to... well, you can read all about it in that post.

  13. #13
    Community Member Culver.Civello's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whomhead View Post
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ttacks-unarmed

    Basically, I noticed that great cleave was actually living up to its illustrious title (great) on my monk. I posted as much here, and then others chimed in saying how bad it was on their characters. A bit of digging led to... well, you can read all about it in that post.
    That is interesting. O.o I have a human male monk with GC, but never really cared to pay attention. XD I'll have to see for myself the next time I log in.

    Lost Legions of Sarlona................................. Tyrs Paladium of Ghallanda
    Kobay . Kobai . Artisti . Kobot . Ezike . Dynic.......................... Ezike . Kobai

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